OKC Police & Fire needs

[betts]

There is a simple solution which is call someone back in to fill in for the injured Firefighter so both employees can have the opportunity to utilize the leave time the City has by contract agreed to. But they refuse to do that.

So at the end of the day the issue has come down to this. The City has agreed to give a benefit, and the Council had to approve that benefit. But the City is unwilling to provide ample opportunity for the use of that benefit.

That is where the Council can, and should step in to fix the problem. But they won't, or a least to this point, they haven't. This problem has been an ongoing problem for many years, and it's been getting worse, not better. Now it has come to a head. Sorry it took so long to explain the issue.

I'll bet if you, or anyone else here, were in this position, it would be an issue as well.

Thank you for explaining it. I too am a government employee (state), and we have rules and regulations that are sometimes annoying. However, we often troubleshoot to find ways to solve what sometimes seem like insoluble problems.

To clarify just a bit more, you say "But they refuse to do that." Who is "they"? Would calling someone back in involve overtime, and is that the issue? I don't know how many weeks vacation you all have, plus sick time. I'll guess 5, since you're part of a union and a government employee. That means you'd have 45 weeks of the year when one of those 9 employees was on vacation or sick, on the average.

Why wouldn't you just have a rule that only one person can be on vacation at any given time? That's what we do, since we have no backup we can call in if someone gets sick. We have open vacation slots, and they're filled on a first-come, first-served basis. If a particular slot is full, then you pick another time. That gives you some wiggle room as far as staffing goes, and keeps you from having to deny someone their prescheduled vacation.

Now, if something happens to two more people, such as one has his or her appendix out and someone else breaks their leg, you've still got a problem. It's going to happen less frequently than currently, but it has to have a solution. If every firestation has an average of one extra person on hand at any given time, couldn't you create a pool of people who could float from station to station to fill personnel slots? That way you'd not have to pay someone overtime.

When you say City Council hasn't or won't fix the problem, what has been their response to an explanation of the problem? They're all human and they should understand planned vacations, especially in this day and age when frequently both spouses work and vacations must be scheduled months in advance. It's hard for me to think that, with an explanation of this issue, they'd all just look at you and say, "Too bad." I would think that people who run for city council are problem solvers by nature. Their solution might not be what everyone wants (as my boss's sometimes isn't), but surely they make an attempt to find a solution.

[Patrick]

They don't know what the problem is Patrick. Just that it takes to long for officers to show up on the calls. Your survey's aren't take during the wait time a citizen is having waiting for an officer. They are taken after the officer apoligizes for 10 minutes and listens to an irate citizen vent.

Obviously there's not enough of that happening to have a significant impact on the majority opinion of most citizens' views of our police dept.

That's Blackmail Patrick! If we don't support MAPS3 at any cost. We'll jeapardize any future funding. Ohhh..Sorry we'll bow down to the Mayor and Counsel...MAPS3 at any cost.
LOL..

It's crazy even discussing this anymore. Your reason for opposing MAPS is simply your retaliation for not getting what you wanted from the city, plain and simple.

Patrick for Police Chief!!!!! He's got it all figured out..LOL..We are no longer working accidents!! Forget Traffic Control at accident..forget Fireman or EMSA...Citizens "just shake it off"...your fine..It's a fender bender..Come on now..Won't make alot of friends in Insurance world that way... They need those police reports you know...and so do citizens to get their cars repaired...they need to get on that new rail system and quit driving..

I never said I wanted to be police chief. I'm just a citizen observer. And, the traffic control at an accident is just an example of a police service that's not absolutely required or necessarily needed. If it's a fender bender, there's really no need for a police officer presence. Seems to work fine when the roads are bad, and they tell us to not call the police for non-injury accidents. Why can't it work other times?

Patrick's got the Police strategy down too..The Chief of Police and all of his Deputy Chief's, Majors, Captains, Lieutenants have been misusing Manpower. They are idiots! Patrick would fix the problem...I vote for PATRICK!!!!! What's your background in Law Enforcement and Management Patrick...Whatever it is..I'm in...

You're acting completely childish here and making attacks that aren't warranted. I never said I knew everything about the police dept. I'm by far not the expert in law enforcement. I'm a medical doctor, thus my knowledge in is medicine. But, I have plenty of neighbors and friends who are cops who say that that the info the unions are spewing is to further their own agendas and not necessarily based in fact.

Are you that naive? Do you think they are going to put you in a car that's falling apart or a brand new one that's clean and ready to go? You see Patrick i've been there when they are looking for someone to send a ridealong with. They hand pick the car and officer. What do you know about the Fire or Police vehicles? or the Status of the fire and police stations?

Ummmm...my ride alongs have been with friends, family, and neighbors, who all dispute what the union is claiming.

If you are a DR...think of it this way..
24 hour shift at hospital....take care of 25 gunshot victims, 50 stabbing victims, 80 heart attack victims, 45 child abuse victims, 85 broken bone victims, 100 flu's, 200 unknown problems....there are supposed to be 25 doctors on staff...and a recent survey says you need 65 dr's to handle the load.

The number of patients you mention is an exaggeration, but it is true that we are understaffed at the 3 hospitals I work at. That's just the face of reality in this economy. You don't see me launching retaliation opposition efforts against the state because they won't hire more physicians at OUHSC.

The hospital is building a new 25 million dollar break room with a courtyard to eat your lunch. They've asked for each department in the hospital to cut their budgetsby 5% and have let go numerous Dr's, nurses and other staff to build the new breakroom.

If you haven't been on the OUHSC campus lately, there are literally millions of dollars going into expansion and improvement efforts of our facilities, while at the same time staff cuts are being made in our departments.

You handle the above listed shift with 5 Dr's. ..The staff has shrunk down slowly for about the last 20 years..Now you are down to 5...

Yup, right on!

Now don't whine about hiring more Dr's...just do your job...if you don't like it....QUIT!!!!...Patrick I am getting a kick out of you...That's for sure..

We are understaffed and do need more doctors, but nope, I'm not whining....Im just doing my job and facing the reality that the economy sucks
and the budget doesn't currently allow for staff increases.

[Patrick]

Confirmed? Patrick is a Doctor? Keep in mind Patrick from my last post...That officers don't have a entourage of PA's, RN's, LPN's, X-ray tech's...i could go on...on every call like a Dr.

I'm not the one that brought it up, but yes, I am a physician at OUHSC. But, if you're so concerned and feeling insecure about needing to comfirming my identity, feel free to look me up on the Oklahoma Medical Board's website. All medical licenses are public record.

Just maybe one more Gray Shirt or two if you're lucky.....to handle any the each call or crisis......

I'm not that lucky, but I'm not whining about it.

I should have known...It's a Dr....They can do it all.. Run the hospitals and Police Departments....Fire Departments and city services too...Their is nothing ol Patrick can't do... Maybe I can try surgery sometime and run an ER? I know alot about it. I've watched ER, been on walk along's in the ER and seen many IV's run...Can I do that? Patrick will be my first patient...It looks easy.....Alot of your comments make alot of sense to me now....

Are we being stereotypical? I haven't said anywhere that I can do it all, or that I know how to run the police department or fire department, or that I can do it all. You've made all of that up, and those are false assumptions and statements. Haven't seen any posts by me stating any of that. I think you're unfairly attacking me, but I'm getting used to that. It seems as when you don't agree with someone on here, you resort to personal attacks, almost like a troll would. Pretty classy on your part. You're really gaining credibility here by your tactics. Your behavior here really makes me want to join your cause and sympathize with you misfortunes.

And, last time I checked, I am a citizen of Oklahoma City, and have the first amendment right to express my opinions, even if you don't like them. And this is a message board (one I was instrumental in starting and creating back in 2004) designed to express a variety of opinions. With such a variety and diversity in opinions, there will always be those that disagree, but that's part of debate and part of American democracy.

[Patrick]

I guess the answer to the question is, the unions feel like the city should not do anything to promote any kinds of growth until the unions feel like the have the staff to do so.

If we wait on progress until the unions feel like they have the appropriate number of staff, progress will never come. I grew up in a union family, and I can't tell you once when the union felt they were adequately paid or adequately staff. I'm not opposed to unions completely, because they do represent the common Joe, but most unions only think about their own interests and they're not always the best for the company or the employee in the long run. Just look at GM. Sure, GM faltered because they weren't producing quality vehicles. But, they also failed because the corporation had huge financial obligations and debts because they were having to meet the consessions of the union, funding excessively expensive pension plans, paying outrageous wages, and funding overly expensive healthcare programs. There's no way GM, with those liabilities, could compete in a fair market economy with companies like Toyota that weren't tied down with such liabilities. What good did the union do GM? While Toyota survived the economic downturn by cutting wages across the board, GM couldn't do so due to outrageous union contracts and demands. The result? The overdemanding union helped result in GM's bankruptcy and eventual takeover by the government. Unions also unfortunately have to protect all of the members, even those that aren't producing efficient quality work. Look at the teacher's union. How many lazy, underperforming teachers have they protected from termination all because of union backed tenure?

Next question, IF MAPS gets voted down and the unions want to make a run at a dedicated sales tax election for staffing, who runs the campaign? Can the unions? Is there any fear of backlash?

If a MAPS opposition campaign launched by the unions is anything similar to the behavior displayed here, you can forget getting the city to even consider putting any sales tax elections on the ballot for their benefit. They're already beginning to burn their bridges there.

I fear that the unions are starting a scary game of tit for tat that will ultimately lead to nothing getting accomplished on either side.

What else do you expect from the unions?

I'm not anti police or fire but I am anti trying to piggyback their issues onto maps.

I agree. MAPS is for capital improvements, not for increases in manpower for city services.

If the unions were smart, they'd use a little more tact and professionalism, and continue to try to lobby the city for increased funding, instead of resorting to immature blackmail retaliation tactics.

[betts]

You're not exactly making yourself a credible representative, iron75. Debate like an adult and you might find some support for your cause. Unlike you, we might be willing to support both MAPS and city services, as most of the people who post here regularly are here because we love the city and want to make it a better place in which to live.

[OKCGUY3]

If every firestation has an average of one extra person on hand at any given time, couldn't you create a pool of people who could float from station to station to fill personnel slots? That way you'd not have to pay someone overtime.
.

Each rig has a minnimum staffing requirement,(NFPA STAFFING STANDARDS) so if only 5 people are assigned to a station, and the minnimum staffing level is 4 on that rig, then only one person can schedule off at that station.
However, each DISTRICT which is comprised of 5 to 6 stations, does maintain what is called a HOLD person. This keeps one person over minnimum in each district for emergency leave such as sickness, or injury. A total of 6 Hold persons are scheduled to be available each day if there are no long term injuries or no one calls in sick. The problem is that the fire department is averaging over 10 long term leaves per shift right now due to surgeries, long term illness, military deployment, etc... So in order to put the rigs in service each morning, if all of the Hold person spots are used, days off are cancelled. This is done in advance. There are some days that hold persons are still available so no days off are cancelled on those days. Solutions have been suggested to the department and city for three years now and to date, nothing has changed to correct the problem. This year, over 80 people have had their approved days off cancelled. This doesn't even begin to address the issue of people losing accrued leave time because they can not get a day off approved to start with.

[betts]

That's a problem then, I agree. I can understand the military deployment issue, although I don't understand why those spots couldn't be filled and, as people return from deployment, they could fill other positions that become vacant. You say solutions have been presented to your department? If they are the first line of decision making, then the problem lies there, more than with the city. They are probably the people giving information to the city council, if anyone is. Again, though, I don't see how voting against MAPS is going to help this issue. I would try to get television stations to do reports on staffing issues, talk to people at the Gazette, and campaign for council people you feel are sympathetic to your cause, all the while informing the current city councilpeople of precisely why you are doing so. You at least have some options, which is more than some people employed by private businesses have. Good luck. I would support a .25 cent permanent increase in sales tax for city services, if that's what's needed.

I am hoping, however, that when not having leave cancelled, you all are working at least a 40 hour work week, and don't have more than 5 weeks paid leave. I consider that a minimum. I'm sitting here, and am not in Dallas because I'm on unpaid call for the next 48 hours. I might not have to work, but I don't get to go anywhere and I can't be away from my phone.

[OKCGUY3]

Actually, Firefighters work 2928 hrs a year. 24hrsX 122days= 2928 hours(scheduled time)
40 hrs a week would only equal = 40X52 weeks = 2080 hours a year ( scheduled time )

So Firefighter's scheduled work year 2928
40hour work week employee 2080
------
difference in annual hours worked 848 hours

Hope that helps with your concern of firefighters working at least a 40 hour week.

[kevinpate]

Not knocking the math, but just curious about the total hours. Roughly how many of the hours in a 24 hour shift are anticipated down time hours, including sleep time, barring a call out of course. All bets are off in such a day.

I'm assuming OKC fire folks are rather like other fine fire folks and they are 'engaged to wait' a fair portion of their shifts, with some of the on duty hours going toward, food prep, eating, clear and clean, exercise, personal hygiene, telly/radio/dvd enjoyment and sleep time.

There are a lot of work hours as well, in station and out, some are brutal to be certain, and I don't suggest otherwise. However, a 24 hour shift is in fact its own breed of animal, even in the public safety sector.

[iron76hd]

You're really gaining credibility here by your tactics. Your behavior here really makes me want to join your cause and sympathize with you misfortunes.

Credibility? Patrick the minute you said that maybe all that is needed for the entire South Side of Oklahoma City is 9 officers. Your credibility was gone. I'm talking about Officers safety here Patrick. Officers are people, doing a very tough job. The minute you called them whiners, idiots and blowhards your credibility was gone. I don't know what tactics your refering too.

I told you facts Patrick, and you just pretended to know more that everyone else. You even suggested that the Police Departments managment was a problem. Make no mistake I didn't attempt to change your mind. I could tell your mind was made up immediately. When you belittled anything said about Manpower.

Childish is telling folks.."get another job then"...

If a MAPS opposition campaign launched by the unions is anything similar to the behavior displayed here, you can forget getting the city to even consider putting any sales tax elections on the ballot for their benefit. They're already beginning to burn their bridges there.

I can't tell you once when the union felt they were adequately paid or adequately staff.

Nice Patrick. You just made it clear that "UNIONS" are full of it. Always whine and always will. If you meant something different please explain. If I burn any bridges by sticking up for something I believe in then so be it. Just like you said it's a free country.

I didn't realize you were so sensitive. I don't know how you've been attacked personally. I certainly didn't mean that. I didn't respond in kind when you said blowhard, idiot, whiners, and trolls. Now who's classy.

I've given facts and so have several others. You've dismissed every one of them. ALL of them...You've not missed remarking with something negative everytime. So don't whine yourself when you get it right back..except I left out all of the Whiner, troll, blowhard comments. I guess that's medical school class.

The number of patients you mention is an exaggeration, but it is true that we are understaffed at the 3 hospitals I work at. That's just the face of reality in this economy. You don't see me launching retaliation opposition efforts against the state because they won't hire more physicians at OUHSC.

We are understaffed and do need more doctors, but nope, I'm not whining....Im just doing my job and facing the reality that the economy sucks

That's Funny. Let me take you back to 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. Doctors put on their white coats and walked all around the Oklahoma State Capital. The sat in the gallery as Tort Reform was debated. Very dramatic.. Did you have your white coat on. What were you doing? Whining? I didn't call it that, but by your assumption that's exactly what they are doing. I don't remember the last time I talked to a Doctor about his practice and he mentioned..Whined I guess..about paying his malpractice insurance. I never thought he was a blowhard or whiner. I actually listened.

[Patrick]

I didn't know I was ranting and raving. What name calling? You must have me confused with the person who posted Blowhard, Whiner, and idiot numerous times.

My gosh, once again you're so incorrect. I called them whiners, but didn't once mention the other terms mentioned. Thanks for lying on me. You're sure gaining credibility here. If this is the way you acted in your dealings with the concil and mayor, no wonder they blew you off.

The civil servant decision to vocally oppose MAPs3 IS NOT a disbelief in the value to OKC of having the proposed capital improvements within the city.

Ahhh....you're right. Instead, it's a blackmail attempt to "punish" the city for not heeding to your requests.

That's it!!!!! Finally. I frankly don't appreciate not being able to vote for some growth in this city. I want to vote YES.. I unfortunately for me know the real day to day struggles of this Department to meet the needs of this city. If a citizen could walk a day in an officer's shoes his eyes would be wide open at the end of the day.

I think most people could say that in their profession. That gives them no reason to oppose things that are for the betterment of everyone. My department at OU Physicians had staff cuts. Should I retaliate and launch a huge opposition against the building of the new OU Cancer Center? That would be childish and selfish, and would ultimately only effect the patients we serve.

Maybe we should have hired Patrick to do the study, he in your opinion is a Doctor and would have done better job that Berkshire.

You completely missed Midtowner's point. He never said you had to have an education in order to know what you're talking about. What he did say is that if you're going to make claims you need to at least have decent researched evidence to back up your claims, otherwise you're going to get challenged and called out.

Wow! Tell me betts you didn't move here because of the Canal, strip of bars, or Minor League Stadium. I am sorry I want to Believe that..I just don't. While I am happy with the progress downtown, I don't stake this city's being a great place to live because of that. This city was a great place to live before the strip of bars in Bricktown.

Do you even remember what OKC was like before MAPS 1 was passed in 1992? Downtown was dead and deteriorating and the city was a dump with little quality of life, and a majority of citizens that had a poor image of their own city. Many public facilities were deteriorating, and horse shows, sports teams, corporations, conventions, trade shows, and citizens were abandoning ship. Over the past 15 years there was been a huge renaissance in this city thanks to MAPS 1.

I agree. I am truely surprised at the lack of support by our counsel. I feel confident that during the next round of elections this issue will be addressed with each candidate. I also agree one can have both, but this counsel promised things to employees in reference to staffing each time...MAPS1..MAPS2....where is the money from all of the revenue going...where? not for public services....that's for sure

Maybe it's a problem with how you're coming across to the council or how you're interpreting their response. I really doubt most of them are the evil, care-nothing, dishonest people you are portraying them to be.

[andy157]

Thank you for explaining it. I too am a government employee (state), and we have rules and regulations that are sometimes annoying. However, we often troubleshoot to find ways to solve what sometimes seem like insoluble problems.

To clarify just a bit more, you say "But they refuse to do that." Who is "they"? Would calling someone back in involve overtime, and is that the issue? I don't know how many weeks vacation you all have, plus sick time. I'll guess 5, since you're part of a union and a government employee. That means you'd have 45 weeks of the year when one of those 9 employees was on vacation or sick, on the average.

Why wouldn't you just have a rule that only one person can be on vacation at any given time? That's what we do, since we have no backup we can call in if someone gets sick. We have open vacation slots, and they're filled on a first-come, first-served basis. If a particular slot is full, then you pick another time. That gives you some wiggle room as far as staffing goes, and keeps you from having to deny someone their prescheduled vacation.

Now, if something happens to two more people, such as one has his or her appendix out and someone else breaks their leg, you've still got a problem. It's going to happen less frequently than currently, but it has to have a solution. If every firestation has an average of one extra person on hand at any given time, couldn't you create a pool of people who could float from station to station to fill personnel slots? That way you'd not have to pay someone overtime.

When you say City Council hasn't or won't fix the problem, what has been their response to an explanation of the problem? They're all human and they should understand planned vacations, especially in this day and age when frequently both spouses work and vacations must be scheduled months in advance. It's hard for me to think that, with an explanation of this issue, they'd all just look at you and say, "Too bad." I would think that people who run for city council are problem solvers by nature. Their solution might not be what everyone wants (as my boss's sometimes isn't), but surely they make an attempt to find a solution.

One of these days I'm going to have to learn how to use the multi-quote function. But until then I will have address your comments one at a time.

We know what the problem is, and have offered many solutions. You know what they say, it takes two to tango, The City(management staff) won't dance. Yes, calling back involves overtime, and yes thats an issue. Using the City's numbers, not the Unions, callback overtime for last FY would have cost them less than $95,000.

It's a basic fact, Overtime cost alot less then hiring someone. So the City won't use either of the 2 basic options to solve this problem. So what the Firefighters are left with is having their leave cancelled. The Firefighter does have one other option in order to salvage their plans. Pay someone out of their pocket to come in and work for them, which amounts to having to pay to use a negotiated benefit. I can tell you this, no other employee group working for the City of OKC has this happen to them including Management.

We do have a rule depending on the number of rigs at the station where only one person can be off. Example Sta. 11 has one Engine with 5 personel assigned. Eng.11 is staffed 24/7 365 its minimum staffing level is 4, therefore only one person can be off.

Those stations are the ones most affected, remember sta.14 with one hurt they can still have one off. Sta.11 on the other hand 1 hurt 0 off. Of course Sta.11 can borrow sta. 14 extra man so their one can get off, but know sta. 14 can't have anyone off. Their 2 dayoff slots are gone, 1 hurt, 1 loaned to sta 11.

Regarding the rest of your comments, and in order to shorten mine. Everyone knows the problem including the CC and still the problem goes unresolved for the 4th or 5th year in a row. So here we are lines drawn in the sand. It's to bad, but it is what it is.

[andy157]

Thank you for explaining it. I too am a government employee (state), and we have rules and regulations that are sometimes annoying. However, we often troubleshoot to find ways to solve what sometimes seem like insoluble problems.

To clarify just a bit more, you say "But they refuse to do that." Who is "they"? Would calling someone back in involve overtime, and is that the issue? I don't know how many weeks vacation you all have, plus sick time. I'll guess 5, since you're part of a union and a government employee. That means you'd have 45 weeks of the year when one of those 9 employees was on vacation or sick, on the average.

Why wouldn't you just have a rule that only one person can be on vacation at any given time? That's what we do, since we have no backup we can call in if someone gets sick. We have open vacation slots, and they're filled on a first-come, first-served basis. If a particular slot is full, then you pick another time. That gives you some wiggle room as far as staffing goes, and keeps you from having to deny someone their prescheduled vacation.

Now, if something happens to two more people, such as one has his or her appendix out and someone else breaks their leg, you've still got a problem. It's going to happen less frequently than currently, but it has to have a solution. If every firestation has an average of one extra person on hand at any given time, couldn't you create a pool of people who could float from station to station to fill personnel slots? That way you'd not have to pay someone overtime.

When you say City Council hasn't or won't fix the problem, what has been their response to an explanation of the problem? They're all human and they should understand planned vacations, especially in this day and age when frequently both spouses work and vacations must be scheduled months in advance. It's hard for me to think that, with an explanation of this issue, they'd all just look at you and say, "Too bad." I would think that people who run for city council are problem solvers by nature. Their solution might not be what everyone wants (as my boss's sometimes isn't), but surely they make an attempt to find a solution.

That's a problem then, I agree. I can understand the military deployment issue, although I don't understand why those spots couldn't be filled and, as people return from deployment, they could fill other positions that become vacant. You say solutions have been presented to your department? If they are the first line of decision making, then the problem lies there, more than with the city. They are probably the people giving information to the city council, if anyone is. Again, though, I don't see how voting against MAPS is going to help this issue. I would try to get television stations to do reports on staffing issues, talk to people at the Gazette, and campaign for council people you feel are sympathetic to your cause, all the while informing the current city councilpeople of precisely why you are doing so. You at least have some options, which is more than some people employed by private businesses have. Good luck. I would support a .25 cent permanent increase in sales tax for city services, if that's what's needed.

I am hoping, however, that when not having leave cancelled, you all are working at least a 40 hour work week, and don't have more than 5 weeks paid leave. I consider that a minimum. I'm sitting here, and am not in Dallas because I'm on unpaid call for the next 48 hours. I might not have to work, but I don't get to go anywhere and I can't be away from my phone.

If you are on call, and can't be away from the phone, and must go to work if you are called, theres a good chance they should be paying you. You may want to look into that, unless of coarse you don't mind not being paid to standby. If thats the case and you are content with your employment situation, thats your business and I respect that. See I told you about multi-quote its got me all messed up

[Patrick]

Credibility? Patrick the minute you said that maybe all that is needed for the entire South Side of Oklahoma City is 9 officers. Your credibility was gone. I'm talking about Officers safety here Patrick. Officers are people, doing a very tough job. The minute you called them whiners, idiots and blowhards your credibility was gone. I don't know what tactics your refering too.

Wow, have we gotten off topic here or what? I'm not going to engage in any flame wars, but I will set the record stright in this reply and that's it.

For the record, I haven't called anyone an idiot or blowhard.

I told you facts Patrick, and you just pretended to know more that everyone else. You even suggested that the Police Departments managment was a problem. Make no mistake I didn't attempt to change your mind. I could tell your mind was made up immediately. When you belittled anything said about Manpower.

Agree to disagree.

Childish is telling folks.."get another job then"...

Your opinion.

Nice Patrick. You just made it clear that "UNIONS" are full of it. Always whine and always will. If you meant something different please explain. If I burn any bridges by sticking up for something I believe in then so be it. Just like you said it's a free country.

Yup, I'm not a fan of unions. I'm entitled to my opinion just as you are.

I didn't realize you were so sensitive.

Far from it.

I don't know how you've been attacked personally. I certainly didn't mean that.

It's more a flame fest of personality attacks and mocking you've started here:

"Patrick for Police Chief!!!!! He's got it all figured out..LOL.."

"Patrick's got the Police strategy down too..The Chief of Police and all of his Deputy Chief's, Majors, Captains, Lieutenants have been misusing Manpower. They are idiots! Patrick would fix the problem...I vote for PATRICK!!!!! What's your background in Law Enforcement and Management Patrick...Whatever it is..I'm in..."

"It's a Dr....They can do it all.. Run the hospitals and Police Departments....Fire Departments and city services too...Their is nothing ol Patrick can't do"

"Maybe I can try surgery sometime and run an ER? I know alot about it. I've watched ER, been on walk along's in the ER and seen many IV's run...Can I do that? Patrick will be my first patient...It looks easy.."

"Alot of your comments make alot of sense to me now.... "

"Here you go Midtowner...Pretend I'm Patrick..."There is a shortage of Manpower and the Berkshire study is credible". Now you believe it?"

"You act like your on a planet that the rest of us can only aspire to get to though. Come on.. Don't do that. Maybe we should have hired Patrick to do the study, he in your opinion is a Doctor and would have done better job that Berkshire. "

"Credibility? Patrick the minute you said that maybe all that is needed for the entire South Side of Oklahoma City is 9 officers. Your credibility was gone. I'm talking about Officers safety here Patrick. Officers are people, doing a very tough job. The minute you called them whiners, idiots and blowhards your credibility was gone."

"Childish is telling folks.."get another job then"... "

"I guess that's medical school class."

I didn't respond in kind when you said blowhard, idiot, whiners, and trolls. Now who's classy.

Again, only used the words whiner and troll.

I've given facts and so have several others. You've dismissed every one of them. ALL of them...You've not missed remarking with something negative everytime. So don't whine yourself when you get it right back..except I left out all of the Whiner, troll, blowhard comments. I guess that's medical school class.

I'm not whining about discussing the issues. It's the personality attacks that have nothing to do with the issues that I have problems with. That's not civil debate. And, so I dismissed your comments.....that's my right. People aren't always going to agree with you, especially here....get used to it.

That's Funny. Let me take you back to 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008. Doctors put on their white coats and walked all around the Oklahoma State Capital. The sat in the gallery as Tort Reform was debated. Very dramatic.. Did you have your white coat on. What were you doing? Whining? I didn't call it that, but by your assumption that's exactly what they are doing. I don't remember the last time I talked to a Doctor about his practice and he mentioned..Whined I guess..about paying his malpractice insurance. I never thought he was a blowhard or whiner. I actually listened.

I can honestly say I never attended one of those events. Haven't been to the capitol since I was a kid actually! I don't whine about malpractice insurance. I don't pay for it...OUHSC does, so it's not my issue.


I won't be addressing anymore personal issues or hijacks. If you want to discuss issues surrounding the purpose of this thread, I'm all game.

[Patrick]

We've gotten a little off topick, and I wanted to make a few comments here to get back on topic.

I think most here, myself included, agree that the fire department and police department are awesome in our city. I sympathize with the firefighters' struggle with their vacation leave. I think it sucks that the firefighters aren't being able to use their vacation time as they should. Having their scheduled vacation time cancelled is flat out wrong. If hiring more firefighters is what it's going to take to improve the plight of our firefighters I'm all for doing whatever it takes to hire more employees, even if that means raising taxes a little more. My guess is that with previous bond issues and the 3/4 cent increase passed many years ago to put more firefighters on the street, actual costs ended up being more than expected and thus the city wasn't able to reach all of the goals promised. If so the city just needs to come out and be honest about it like they did with cost overruns on MAPS 1.

Concerning the police dept, I'm all in favor of increasing manpower if necessary. And I think most would be willing to pay a little more to do so.

I don't see why an increase in the sales tax by 0.4% taking us up to 8.75% would be a problem if it meant better police and fire service in our city.

That being said, I don't know why we can't pass MAPS 3 as well and improve transit and quality of life in our city.

I'm not an expert by any means in city govt and city services, but I'm smart enough to know that compromise can work.

I'm not in favor of retaliation tactics that end up hurting everone in our city in an effort to get what you want. I am in favor of the police and fire unions continuing regular civil dialogue with city hall to get what they need. If that means packing city hall at every council meeting, than so be it. Professional non-threatening pressured lobbying goes a lot further than making threats. Be patient and keep pressing.

[andy157]

We've gotten a little off topick, and I wanted to make a few comments here to get back on topic.

I think most here, myself included, agree that the fire department and police department are awesome in our city. I sympathize with the firefighters' struggle with their vacation leave. I think it sucks that the firefighters aren't being able to use their vacation time as they should. Having their scheduled vacation time cancelled is flat out wrong. If hiring more firefighters is what it's going to take to improve the plight of our firefighters I'm all for doing whatever it takes to hire more employees, even if that means raising taxes a little more. My guess is that with previous bond issues and the 3/4 cent increase passed many years ago to put more firefighters on the street, actual costs ended up being more than expected and thus the city wasn't able to reach all of the goals promised. If so the city just needs to come out and be honest about it like they did with cost overruns on MAPS 1.

Concerning the police dept, I'm all in favor of increasing manpower if necessary. And I think most would be willing to pay a little more to do so.

I don't see why an increase in the sales tax by 0.4% taking us up to 8.75% would be a problem if it meant better police and fire service in our city.

That being said, I don't know why we can't pass MAPS 3 as well and improve transit and quality of life in our city.

I'm not an expert by any means in city govt and city services, but I'm smart enough to know that compromise can work.

I'm not in favor of retaliation tactics that end up hurting everone in our city in an effort to get what you want. I am in favor of the police and fire unions continuing regular civil dialogue with city hall to get what they need. If that means packing city hall at every council meeting, than so be it. Professional non-threatening pressured lobbying goes a lot further than making threats. Be patient and keep pressing.

Patrick, thank you, I respect and appreciated these comments. There is a easy solution that could eliminate the Firefighters having their leave cancelled. Because it's not right, and as you said, it sucks.

The fix won't come free, but its cost would be minimal. Which goes back to a very important point I've been attempting to make. By all rights they should maintain what we voted for in 1989, 200 additional for a total of 948, but they haven't, and until someone calls them on it, they won't, but they will take our money.

Fine, don't hire the Firefighters we've paid for, but at least call someone back pay the overtime, and go on down the road. By the City's own admission that would have happen only 72 times, and cost around $94,000., sure thats quite a bit of money, but when you consider what they save by not filling 10,20,or 30 vacancies throughout the year, its chicken feed.

You may have seen the last City Council meeting. If by chance you didn't please pull it up fast forward to the last few minutes. Then if you would listen to what Phil Sipe told the Council. See if his words and his actions seemed unreasonable, unprofessional, demanding, or threatening.

[kevinpate]

> but at least call someone back pay the overtime,
> and go on down the road.

Andy, in the above context, what does 'call someone back' mean? Would this be someone current on training but recently retired, a former employee wo was RIF'd, or some other scenerio?

Sorry to be dense, but well, that's me.

[lump9816]

Amen Andy! I don't understand why people on this board refuse to be upset about the city reneging on a promise made to its citizens. Was maps 1 and 2 good for the city? Heck yes! And maps 3 would be good as well. However, since maps inception the city has aked its employees to support maps with a smile all the while telling us it will be "beneficial to us all". Well guess what, it has been, but not to us. As a citizen and other citizens of the city it has been beneficial. But where is the money going? The city council wants to use our money, once again, to make a few select people, even richer.

[iron76hd]

Andy, with all due respect, you have stated that you have a disagreement with the city. You have not actually explained where any lies were told. What you have said (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you wanted raises... that didn't happen due to budget constraints. You wanted assurances on vacations, that didn't happen either due to budget constraints.

We could go on and on about liars. The Mayor got on the news and said that the Unions were mad because they didn't get their raises. FACT. The Police Department and City Workers didn't even ask for a raise this year? Because we can read, and know that revenue for this city is down due to the economy. That would have been pretty irresponsible, we thought.

Let me say that again, The Police and City Workers didn'task for a raise this contract year!

The Fireman won a raise through a hard fought ARBITRATION. The Fireman told the City to keep the money! They'd rather try to use that money and hire more firefighters.

You be the judge. Was what the Mayor said to lie? It was at least irresponsible. He was on a media source that all uninformed citizens were watching. Easy now. Police, Fire and City workers want a raise!!!! That's why they are mad. And that couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm not whining about discussing the issues. It's the personality attacks that have nothing to do with the issues that I have problems with. That's not civil debate.

Listen. You sent plenty of personality attacks and insults. I didn't respond to most. Whiner and Troll are enough. You added immature and childish just to name a few. So relax. You dished it out, but didn't like any coming back.

I would like to say that you used something I've learned to say as I've gotten a little older. I AGREE TO DISAGREE.

and WOW! I also did appreciate your last post. It used a little logic and compassion. Something I knew you had from being a Doctor, but didn't hear any of in your posts.

I'm not in favor of retaliation tactics

hurting everone in our city in an effort to get what you want. I am in favor of the police and fire unions continuing regular civil dialogue with city hall to get what they need. If that means packing city hall at every council meeting, than so be it. Professional non-threatening pressured lobbying goes a lot further than making threats.

I don't see why an increase in the sales tax by 0.4% taking us up to 8.75% would be a problem if it meant better police and fire service in our city.

I think we just view our decision not to suppport MAPS3 differently. We don't oppose city growth. Quite the opposite. We, knowing the dangerously low staffing levels for employee's and citizens, could not in good conscience vote or support a TAX that didn't first address the Public Safety Staffing needs. People...NOT MONEY...

That's it. We just decided not to support this MAPS at this TIME. What we had hoped when we were told the Mayor was going to put MAPS3 on a ballot right now is. He'd also explain the Manpower needs and add another ballot for an additional tax to raise the Money needed to add employee's to staff and support this city. He'd been able to use the same commercials run on MAPS3 to explain the City Services problems...WIN WIN..It's easy to me.

Their own study..Berkshire didn't work...Advice from all Police Chief's and their staff didn't do it, then Union leaders tried to explain...NOTHING...

This is something that's been asked for with each contract...each year...and NO..NO...NO..NO is the same answer.

No threats were made. Threats are what have been thrown our way since deciding not to support MAPS. It's a free country just like you've alluded to. I thankfully can vote either way I want. I don't need the Mayor or a Union to tell me what to do. Voting blind is what I think is a shame.

Just another FACT. Our Animal Control officers are and at one time had 31 officers. We due to budget cuts are asking 4 to cover this whole city. It's evident from the dog attacks to citizens, fireman, emsa, and police officers there isn't any proactive work going on. and now I know why?? and now so do you.

Patrick thank you. You asked some of the same questions We have. Only the Mayor and Counsel can answer those. And with his REFUSAL to have a public debate or having town hall meetings that are, "by invitation only"...we'll never know...

[betts]

Iron, I'm fine with you saying "I" decided not to support MAPS at this time, regardless of your reason. "We" doesn't cut it for me, if the unions or anyone else are telling other people how to vote. Personally, I don't use revenge as an issue when I'm voting for anything, so, if the opportunity to vote for increases in support for public services arises, I will attempt to educate myself and vote my conscience, independent of whether I feel any other issues should be addressed first.

I'd also like to ask how the Chief of Police and the Fire Chief have responded to these issues. Are they completely powerless? If I were chief, I would simply go to the city and say, "My employees will not work overtime, except on a volunteer basis. If they have vacation scheduled, they will take it, even if it leave us with a manpower shortage. They will do the work they can do, in the time in which they have alloted. If that leaves the city with less than adequate support in these areas, then the people will have to look to the city, not the police and fire departments to address these issues."

We are going to have crime, regardless of how many police we have. No city can afford the number of policemen it would take to eliminate crime. Therefore, no policeman should feel personally responsible for any work he or she cannot do. He or she simply needs to do their job to the best of their ability, and leave what they cannot do to the conscience of those making the manpower decisions. As a citizen, I'm fine with that. Trust me, if enough people feel unsafe, there will be public outcry for more help.

We are going to have fires, no matter how many firemen we have. Stopping fires is the primary responsibility of firemen. If there aren't enough firemen to put out the fires that exist in our city, then, again, there will be a public outcry. As far as responding to ambulance calls, I believe that should be a secondary issue, and should only be staffed with manpower that is available. If that means that the only persons responding to an ambulance call are the ambulance drivers, so be it. Again, I would be interested in data showing what percentage of ambulance calls are truly for emergencies that require immediate transport to a hospital to save a life, what percentage of people found in cardiac arrest actually survive for more than a week after the call, etc. Although for each individual, having two fireman plus two ambulance drivers at their home personally might be lifesaving, over a city this size of Oklahoma City, it may be only few times that four versus two, five minutes versus fifteen actually makes much difference actuarially. Regardless, your chief should have the authority to make those kinds of decisions, I would think.

Again, if you don't have enough personnel to do your job adequately, then you do the job you can. It is the responsibility of the heads of your department to do the best they can to get what they consider adquate personnel. If they can't, then if the city suffers, that suffering rests on the heads of those who refuse to respond to calls for more support. I have no problem with people calling attention to that responsibility. I have a problem with those people getting involved as a group politically in an unrelated issue.

[andy157]

> but at least call someone back pay the overtime,
> and go on down the road.

Andy, in the above context, what does 'call someone back' mean? Would this be someone current on training but recently retired, a former employee wo was RIF'd, or some other scenerio?

Sorry to be dense, but well, that's me.

kevinpate, by someone I mean an active, trained, quailified, and equiped professional Firefighter who would be willing to be called back to duty from his or her regularly sheduled day off.

They would replace the Firefighter sheduled to work, so that Firefighter would be able to use his or her earned leave time, as per the contractual agreement between the Union and the City.

The City would pay the overtime cost from the money they have saved by not filling vacant positions. Lets put this into perspective. When talking to the issue of what it cost to put a Firefighter on the street, depending on the situation, the City will use various cost figures. I'll use a budgeted Firefighter cost figure of which I have first hand personal knowledge of, $62,000.00.

Lets use $1,000.00 as the overtime cost to call back one Firefighter for 24 hours. The savings from 1 unfilled position would pay for 62 call back days. That one position alone could come close the funding the 72 lost days that according to the City occured last year. Keep in mind, the City having 10 of these unfilled budgeted positions at any given time throughout the year is not a uncommon occurence.

If you go back to FY/07-08 dedicated sales tax budget for "Personal Service Expenditures" in the Fire Dept. Compare the budgeted vs. the actual, I believe you will see Salary Savings in excess of $1,000,000. or 1,000 call back shifts, more than enough to cover a mere 72.

[andy157]

Iron, I'm fine with you saying "I" decided not to support MAPS at this time, regardless of your reason. "We" doesn't cut it for me, if the unions or anyone else are telling other people how to vote. Personally, I don't use revenge as an issue when I'm voting for anything, so, if the opportunity to vote for increases in support for public services arises, I will attempt to educate myself and vote my conscience, independent of whether I feel any other issues should be addressed first.

I'd also like to ask how the Chief of Police and the Fire Chief have responded to these issues. Are they completely powerless? If I were chief, I would simply go to the city and say, "My employees will not work overtime, except on a volunteer basis. If they have vacation scheduled, they will take it, even if it leave us with a manpower shortage. They will do the work they can do, in the time in which they have alloted. If that leaves the city with less than adequate support in these areas, then the people will have to look to the city, not the police and fire departments to address these issues."

We are going to have crime, regardless of how many police we have. No city can afford the number of policemen it would take to eliminate crime. Therefore, no policeman should feel personally responsible for any work he or she cannot do. He or she simply needs to do their job to the best of their ability, and leave what they cannot do to the conscience of those making the manpower decisions. As a citizen, I'm fine with that. Trust me, if enough people feel unsafe, there will be public outcry for more help.

We are going to have fires, no matter how many firemen we have. Stopping fires is the primary responsibility of firemen. If there aren't enough firemen to put out the fires that exist in our city, then, again, there will be a public outcry. As far as responding to ambulance calls, I believe that should be a secondary issue, and should only be staffed with manpower that is available. If that means that the only persons responding to an ambulance call are the ambulance drivers, so be it. Again, I would be interested in data showing what percentage of ambulance calls are truly for emergencies that require immediate transport to a hospital to save a life, what percentage of people found in cardiac arrest actually survive for more than a week after the call, etc. Although for each individual, having two fireman plus two ambulance drivers at their home personally might be lifesaving, over a city this size of Oklahoma City, it may be only few times that four versus two, five minutes versus fifteen actually makes much difference actuarially. Regardless, your chief should have the authority to make those kinds of decisions, I would think.

Again, if you don't have enough personnel to do your job adequately, then you do the job you can. It is the responsibility of the heads of your department to do the best they can to get what they consider adquate personnel. If they can't, then if the city suffers, that suffering rests on the heads of those who refuse to respond to calls for more support. I have no problem with people calling attention to that responsibility. I have a problem with those people getting involved as a group politically in an unrelated issue.

Betts allow me to make 2 quick points here. First, I can only speak as it pertains to OKC Firefighters, and the Union that represents them. Over the last 25 years, I known thousands of OKC Firefighters. I honestly can't think of even one of them, that would vote for, or against, anything simply because the Union told them how to vote. In fact if anything the opposit would occur.

Next regarding the Fire and Police Chiefs. They work at will. They work for, and are at the mercy of, the City Manager. Consider their place in the food chain, so to speak. I like and respect them both, I consider Chief Bryant a personal friend, I also consider him to be the best Fire Chief this Dept. has had in the past 25 years. Thats not to say the ones before him were by any means bad. Nevertheless. It's not in their best interest to buck the Manager very hard, or very often. If they do they run the risk of being eaten alive.

[kevinpate]

Thanks for clarifiying andy. if you call in someone on a regular day off though, is it a concern he or she mayl be at less than optimal pace? I ask because it seems like bringing in a scheduled off person, given the 24 hour shifts pulled, makes for so no great conditions, and y'all gots to ahve each others backs in major ways when bells are sounding.

Not arguing at all, just trying to get a bit more edumacated, and perhaps others may as well. Then again, it wouldn't surprise me terribly to ultimately figure out most folks are further along the curve than me. But maybe some others out there who are a tad less willing to say 'I dunno, so please tell."
Me, I'm too used to it to fret much over showing my ignorance when it is appropriate.

[betts]

Betts allow me to make 2 quick points here. First, I can only speak as it pertains to OKC Firefighters, and the Union that represents them. Over the last 25 years, I known thousands of OKC Firefighters. I honestly can't think of even one of them, that would vote for, or against, anything simply because the Union told them how to vote. In fact if anything the opposit would occur.

Next regarding the Fire and Police Chiefs. They work at will. They work for, and are at the mercy of, the City Manager. Consider their place in the food chain, so to speak. I like and respect them both, I consider Chief Bryant a personal friend, I also consider him to be the best Fire Chief this Dept. has had in the past 25 years. Thats not to say the ones before him were by any means bad. Nevertheless. It's not in their best interest to buck the Manager very hard, or very often. If they do they run the risk of being eaten alive.

I'm pleased to read your first paragraph.

As to the second, I did not realize they were at the mercy of the City Manager. However, I see their responsiblity differently. Were I the Chief, I would consider my primary responsibility to be to my employees, and I would buck the city manager as often as I thought I should. And, I would expect a good city manager to understand why I was doing so, have a reasonable explanation for why he was vetoing any of my requests, and make every attempt to solve the problems that vetoing created. As I've said, if increasing manpower is an impossibility based on current revenues, then I'd look for ways to decrease demand on those people.

[iron76hd]

I'd also like to ask how the Chief of Police and the Fire Chief have responded to these issues. Are they completely powerless? If I were chief, I would simply go to the city and say, "My employees will not work overtime, except on a volunteer basis. If they have vacation scheduled, they will take it, even if it leave us with a manpower shortage. They will do the work they can do, in the time in which they have alloted. If that leaves the city with less than adequate support in these areas, then the people will have to look to the city, not the police and fire departments to address these issues."

We are going to have crime, regardless of how many police we have. No city can afford the number of policemen it would take to eliminate crime. Therefore, no policeman should feel personally responsible for any work he or she cannot do. He or she simply needs to do their job to the best of their ability, and leave what they cannot do to the conscience of those making the manpower decisions. As a citizen, I'm fine with that. Trust me, if enough people feel unsafe, there will be public outcry for more help.

The Chief's from both departments have done the best they can to satisfy the needs of this city with the current employee's. I will say that I have no doubt his next option is to start cutting programs like DARE and PAL just to name a few. A decision no doubt that is not an easy one.

I appreciate your comments. Officers do take it personally when they can't be there when citizens need them. I wish it were that easy. If it was they would just go to work and come home and never care as long as their paycheck was deposited. I think that's what makes the job so rewarding. To help one citizen and be there when they need someone...anyone..to comfort, help, protect or whatever. When you are the only available officer to respond to three priority calls (rapes, home invasions, murders etc). And several officers have to be called from across the city to help you take those calls. The time it will takes for them to get there is not acceptable. It gets frustrating. Your citizens don't know where the officer came from or had their been adequate staffing could have gotten to the call quicker and actually made a difference. In Police world 10 seconds can be the difference between you driving up on scene as the armed robber walks out or driving up and the robber already being a quarter a mile down the road.

Without adequate staffing everything breaks down. Do you think an officer will take the time to take fingerprints on a burglary if he hears other officers running to priority calls by himself. Or a dispatcher updating a call that a citizen is screaming for help and the call is being left unassigned? Flip the coin...If the officer can take the time to handle the call, fingerprint ...make an identification a few days later and that one call handled correctly could have prevented numerous other burglaries. That's as simple as I can put it.

I would easily answer between 15 to 25 calls for service alone in one shift. That was 6 years ago. I know it's only worse now. Many require two officers to handle safely, but you learn how to manage. It's not safe but if their isnt anyone else. You have to do what you have to do. Ever try to handle a gang fight in the street by yourself? You can feel pretty overwhelmed no matter your size. You handle 50 to 100 calls that shorthanded for a year and you'll wonder how you ever survived. I wish that was an exaggeration, but it's not. Or when your one block from a home invasion with four suspects and you pull up knowing you're help is coming from another division. It can make for an interesting call. You're sure not gonna let the citizen fin for himself while you wait for help. Your going...period. Like I said before, I was working with 9 officers for 300 plus square miles and so it's not unusual.

However, Have 4 officers drive up together and that same call and it's handled alot quicker and safer for all involved.

Let me tell you something that works against officers and fireman alike. There own "PRIDE". Asking for help isn't easy. But when you see enough of your buddies get injured on the job from trying to do to much with too little. You have to swallow your pride sometimes.

Maybe you are right. Maybe officers should explain to citizens on each call why it took them so long or how understaffed they are, but it doesn't seem professional. That's never seemed right. We can look at each other as officers and know what's really going on, but I never want the citizens to feel unprotected. Maybe that's our own fault.