Yes, and I agreed with you. I've lived in two cities (Houston and Phoenix) where it has absolutely taken longer than 1 year to get this done (even though Houston's example is not commuter rail, but more a toy train through a portion of the city). Why do you question that I don't know what you're talking about? I'm not a transit guru nor do I take the interest some others here do, I can just offer what I've seen with my own eyes in other metropolitan areas.

...the Houston Rail, is an example of "we can do it too'. I road the rail to the Reliant Center and it was a nice alternative. It moved somewhat quickly to where we were heading and did not have to wait long at all, for our return to the "park & ride".

CorpDon ...Are you still sitting on that statement "Commuter Rail could be up and running within one year's time" ??? Please provide a few details on the HOW part.

CorpDon? That is a strange one.

One year - yes. If you would care to note I bolded and italicized the word "could". Could - meaning it is possible. Commuter rail between Edmond/Norman and OKC is doable within a year. There is no right of way acquisition required and the necessary construction to begin basic operations is minimal. It goes without saying an operating agreement with BNSF would have to be in place. I have heard from a reliable person that passenger service between OKC and Tulsa is possible in one year - over a 90+ mile right of way that needs upgrading.

So I stand by my statement is could be operational in a year. But as a practical matter, it will not be one year.

And with that *Ignore*......

Did you take it from the parking lot south of 610 to Reliant Center?

It works if you're staying downtown for something like OTC or another event at Reliant Park. Or if you live in downtown/midtown and work in the Medical Center.

It was built as part of a failed attempt at luring the Summer Olympics. They are expanding the system currently.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification. So if there are no delays, the entire track should be layed in a little over a year? Obviously, the Santa Fe Train Station remodel and updating will take a little while as well as the addition to the north. If all that is the case, 2017 looks a lot more realistic than I originally thought.

A year to lay the track is entirely conceivable. Installation of overhead catenary where applicable, vehicle testing and overall systems integration will take longer. Installation of streetcar tracks on EK Gaylord in front of Santa Fe is actually on a faster schedule - the Tiger grant requires completion of that project in 2016. Overall, 2017 is doable but the MAPS Office is extremely busy and delays build up in all sorts of ways. For example, the consultants are currently waiting for the MAPS Office to issue a work order so they can get into preliminary engineering and address the outstanding options in the recently approved route framework.

Did you take it from the parking lot south of 610 to Reliant Center?

It works if you're staying downtown for something like OTC or another event at Reliant Park. Or if you live in downtown/midtown and work in the Medical Center.

It was built as part of a failed attempt at luring the Summer Olympics. They are expanding the system currently.

Yes we did catch it south of Reliant Center for the OTC. We just wanted to try it. From a visitors stand point and in a convention mode, it was perfect. Which is why OKC could benefit from the same type of service w/ our new convention center / downtown venues.

That ride from the Fannin South station to the drop off for Reliant Park is less than 1 mile. The only purpose it really serves is overflow parking from Reliant Park/Medical Center. It does help reduce parking need at other urban areas, but many coming in to Houston aren't going to drive that far out of the way just to ride the train to another destination, they'll just fight the parking or pay the higher rate.

I think the south station of Houston's original line serves mostly as a park ride for downtown/Med Center workers from Pearland and other points south.

Flashback: City Spent Years Trying to Bring Back Streetcars | News OK (http://newsok.com/flashback-city-spent-years-trying-to-bring-back-streetcars/article/3889772)

Proof that even the growth model doesn't work for streetcars, as at some point, you can't grow fast enough.

Modern Streetcar OKC | Andrew Stewart (http://andrewkstewart.wordpress.com/2013/09/13/modern-streetcar-okc/)

Just for fun, in light of the recent approval of the Zeta route framework, I modified my idea and added potential routes for high-frequency bus service:



Over the weekend I updated the map based on some good suggestions:

- I reduced the number of lines from 9 to 4 by combining branch lines into through lines.
- Instead of integrating new lines to the Zeta “loop”, I located the new lines so that they overlapped each other with shared segments of track.
- Each colored line could have a sub-line that just traverses the couplet portion of the route to increase frequency in denser areas.

http://andrewkstewart.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/transit_zeta-with-buses_10-5-13-1200.jpg (http://andrewkstewart.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/transit_zeta-with-buses_10-5-13.jpg)

I like that a lot cuatro, I just think that after we serve the OUSCH and Capitol area, then we need to make haste on a NW 23rd line. Bringing the streetcar back to 23rd will result in huge ridership as it's already the busiest bus line, goes through a dense, urban area for miles, and touches several transit-dependent populations.

Over the weekend I updated the map based on some good suggestions:

- I reduced the number of lines from 9 to 4 by combining branch lines into through lines.
- Instead of integrating new lines to the Zeta “loop”, I located the new lines so that they overlapped each other with shared segments of track.
- Each colored line could have a sub-line that just traverses the couplet portion of the route to increase frequency in denser areas.

http://andrewkstewart.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/transit_zeta-with-buses_10-5-13-1200.jpg (http://andrewkstewart.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/transit_zeta-with-buses_10-5-13.jpg)

This is getting there…all the routes save for Blue-to-Green relate well. Longer explanation in below quote.

I still think I'd prefer to see the Red extend all the way into Bricktown. Stopping right in front of the Transit center is not necessary, and having more service in Bricktown would be advantageous.

I'm still not convinced we should serve the Plaza over OCU if we're choosing between the 2.

Thankfully we have some time before expanding this system to let OKC grow a bit more before making some decisions. My initial impression is that Classen, 23rd, and Broadway/EKG are underserved in this plan. We also have nothing going even remotely close to the boathouse district (which admittedly is very difficult to get to). We do have the Boulevard going over I-40 to the Boathouse district, so if we can track that, it would be awesome.


Blue-to-Yellow: You can transfer in any direction easily.

Blue-to-Red: You can transfer easy to all applicable directions.

Blue-to-Green: This is the weakest route relationship between any of them. I can't get from the Capital to Stockyard City, in 1 transfer. Simply taking the blue east through 8th instead of 4th would accomplish that.

Yellow-to-Red: This works because you can get to the Plaza easily from either direction. If you want to go to the transit center, Yellow would transfer to Blue rather than Red.

Yellow-to-Green: You can transfer in any direction easily.

Green-to-Red: You can transfer in any direction easily.

Cuatro, great work. We ought to get coffee or a beer and go over some of the things I've learned about some of these areas and refine it even more. A bunch of us (volunteers and committee members) really looked at the Capitol Complex and I would like to drive you around and show you some of the efficiencies we have discovered. This might become a great map to hang some future ambitions on.

In short, think about cutting the Capitol loop and using that trackage on 23rd street E/W or as a connection between yellow and blue. We figured out that we could come up in to the very center of the capitol complex from underneath 23rd street and connect into the underground concourse system there that connects all of the office buildings. Just as an example.

I agree with this. I think the Capitol connection should be via AA and 23rd. As strange as it may look on a 2d map, in reality, I think a 23rd street connection is better. Also, I think the OUHSC route should really be more of an amenity route servicing that district primarily. I think that lends to a better ridership experience overall.

What do you mean by Amenity route?

Gotcha,

In that case, no change is needed to what Andrew presented, just a shortened route that is serviced more often.

So if we label the routes something like Red Line: T1, Green Line: T2, Blue Line: T3, Yellow Line: T4...then you just create a T25 that services just the portion of the route that loops around the HSC and loop it back around at Robinson. So while the T2 may run by every 20 to 30 minutes, the T25 runs in between those times.

In short, think about cutting the Capitol loop and using that trackage on 23rd street E/W or as a connection between yellow and blue. We figured out that we could come up in to the very center of the capitol complex from underneath 23rd street and connect into the underground concourse system there that connects all of the office buildings. Just as an example.

I like this. Lincoln is basically just a drive-thru lane. Then, going further east past the Capitol Complex, a 23rd streetcar line would connect a dense, transit-dependent population west of I-235 with essential services like the county health dept at the east end.

nm

Just posted this to Facebook. Trying to fight the good fight for our city! Thank you to Jennifer Chancellor, Editor of the OK Gazette, for helping give me a voice.

Oklahoma Gazette Commentary: Streetcar route a beginning (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-19488-point-streetcar-route-a-beginning.html)

Great article, UP!

...for helping give me a voice.

That's nice. Are you a bit shy or something?

That's nice. Are you a bit shy or something?

UP is kind of a wallflower....never makes waves...... :rolleyes:

Great article, UP!

Thanks!

5 cities opening lines in next 12 months: DC, Atlanta, Tucson, Seattle, Salt Lake City.

per Railvolution

Just posted this to Facebook. Trying to fight the good fight for our city! Thank you to Jennifer Chancellor, Editor of the OK Gazette, for helping give me a voice.

Oklahoma Gazette Commentary: Streetcar route a beginning (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-19488-point-streetcar-route-a-beginning.html)

"The streetcar and intermodal hub are the first MAPS 3 projects to generate a dramatic return on the public dollar. The streetcar project has received $2.1 million of a $13.6 million federal grant. The remaining $11.5 million will be used for improvements to Santa Fe Depot. The streetcar project has also received additional federal funding to study expansion beyond the initial core route.

On the regional transit front, Mayor Mick Cornett is leading a planning committee of mayors and councilors from Edmond, Moore, Norman, Del City and Midwest City examining restoration of intercity rail transit. Future rail modes will intersect with the MAPS 3 Streetcar at Santa Fe Station."--Oklahoma Gazette 16OCT2013

This will be the key to the growth of our rail transportation system with Oklahoma City being the hub. Use of existing or buried track will need to be assessed. If we can just get two of these cities (preferably Norman & Edmond) on board the rest of the pieces will fall into place. The cost of putting down track is estimated at $1 to $1.2 million per mile. The old Katy railroad tracks are in need of repair which wouldn't be as costly from Midwest City to OKC.

It would be nice for Oklahoma City-Tulsa to connect with high speed and commuter rail transit. We'll save that for a future thread...

[I]It would be nice for Oklahoma City-Tulsa to connect with high speed and commuter rail transit. We'll save that for a future thread...

You don't have to save that for the future.

http://www.okctalk.com/transportation/15733-high-speed-rail-link-tulsa%5Cokc%5Cdallas-more.html

No surprise here:

New Wave of Development Follows Streetcar Construction in Mid-Sized Cities | Streetsblog Capitol Hill (http://dc.streetsblog.org/2013/10/28/new-wave-of-development-follows-streetcar-construction-in-mid-sized-cities/)

I think it'd be awesome to redo this shot at NW 4th & Robinson when they're building the new system downtown, cause it will have a crossing just like this:
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/trolleys/vrp_early_layingtrack03.jpg

Cities Turn to Streetcars to Spur Economic Development - USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/11/08/stateline-streetcars/3475007/)

James Greiner thinks the streetcar should be voted on again. Here's why. | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/article/3904901)

Funny. I've met many OKC folks who think the same thing on the civic center. A far more costly bit of MAPs 3 and yet, not a peep out of from like the Ward 1 council person.

I consider such routines like this article to be of the Jeff Dunham variety. Y'all can figure out who plays jeff on your own in this scenario.

Funny. I've met many OKC folks who think the same thing on the civic center. A far more costly bit of MAPs 3 and yet, not a peep out of from like the Ward 1 council person.

I consider such routines like this article to be of the Jeff Dunham variety. Y'all can figure out who plays jeff on your own in this scenario.

For some reason, through its articles and even in its pro-streetcar editorial, the Oklahoman continues to foster the line that somehow the streetcar might not get built. Questions: 1) Why do they continue to give people like Greiner a platform, and 2) Why are they singling out the streetcar in this regard? Couldn't the same also be true of the wellness centers, park, etc.?

James Greiner thinks the streetcar should be voted on again. Here's why. | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/article/3904901)

Wouldn't it cost millions for OKC to run another vote on the MAPS project that's already been voted on? Greiner is a mental midget. We need to find a candidate to run against him in three years.

Does OKC have a recall procedure for council members?

Does OKC have a recall procedure for council members?

I think OKC needs a chance to vote on Greiner again, soon. He just seem to be totally out of his depth.

Does OKC have a recall procedure for council members?

Yes, but according to Midtowner, it's fairly onerous. Someone would have to really, really screw up.

I think OKC needs a chance to vote on Greiner again, soon. He just seem to be totally out of his depth.

Someone should ask him if he is willing to put himself up for a re-vote.

If it wasn't for Greiner we'd be looking at Shadid versus Marrs. Think about that.

Quite frankly, we are seeing the destructive nature of the far, far Right and the far, far Left (green party). Both would rather set City Hall on fire rather than see their views disavowed.

Oklahoman Editorial

In Oklahoma City, future of mass transit has barely left the station | News OK (http://newsok.com/in-oklahoma-city-future-of-mass-transit-has-barely-left-the-station/article/3904708)

Some time I want to get a Facebook Account just so I can respond to the comments. Some people are so misinformed there is no saving them but they shouldn't be able to poison other minds with their misinformation.

For example - this Richard Kennedy guy doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.


It is impossible to separate the centrally planned mass transit alternative to autonomous and sovereign automobile transport because the question goes to the heart of the ideological rift between collectivism and individualism and/or the ideological rift between governance and freedom.


The US federal government in cooperation with banks, the housing industry, auto companies, and road construction industry have specifically passed laws and standards that force us to use their products - with the taxpayers picking up most of the cost. I wonder what Richard thinks of Obamacare. To think that modern urban sprawl with its Euclidian single-use zoning is anything other than collectivism and central planning on a grand scale is naïve (it sure as hell isn't free-market). There is nothing more free or individual than walking - NOTHING, but it requires mixed-use walkable neighborhoods, and mixed-use walkable neighborhoods need to be connected by public transportation that expands the range of walking.

James Greiner thinks the streetcar should be voted on again. Here's why. | NewsOK.com (http://m.newsok.com/article/3904901)

Is Greiner the one that talks to God?

Also, I think the writer, Willy, needs to go in search of larger Crums...

Post edit...
Let's do this:
Q How do you think a Senior Health and Wellness Centers re-vote would come out?
A I think the majority of Oklahoma City voters feel the same way that I do, so I believe that the wellness centers would be stopped if it were voted on separately.

Sub in any other project, like a new convention center and you're going to find plenty of people that don't want it.

MAPS 3 was voted on. He needs to deal with it.

Oklahoman Editorial

In Oklahoma City, future of mass transit has barely left the station | News OK (http://newsok.com/in-oklahoma-city-future-of-mass-transit-has-barely-left-the-station/article/3904708)

Some time I want to get a Facebook Account just so I can respond to the comments. Some people are so misinformed there is no saving them but they shouldn't be able to poison other minds with their misinformation.

For example - this Richard Kennedy guy doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.



The US federal government in cooperation with banks, the housing industry, auto companies, and road construction industry have specifically passed laws and standards that force us to use their products - with the taxpayers picking up most of the cost. I wonder what Richard thinks of Obamacare. To think that modern urban sprawl with its Euclidian single-use zoning is anything other than collectivism and central planning on a grand scale is naïve (it sure as hell isn't free-market). There is nothing more free or individual than walking - NOTHING, but it requires mixed-use walkable neighborhoods, and mixed-use walkable neighborhoods need to be connected by public transportation that expands the range of walking.

...and to add to this - you have to be licensed by the government to even drive a car, and you have to pay another fee to tag the car. Then when you do drive the car after getting government authorization you have to pay a tax on the fuel. How can anyone think owning and driving car represents freedom? It is ridiculous.

...and to add to this - you have to be licensed by the government to even drive a car, and you have to pay another fee to tag the car. Then when you do drive the car after getting government authorization you have to pay a tax on the fuel. How can anyone think owning and driving car represents freedom? It is ridiculous.

Someone directed a question to the pseudo intellectual Kennedy asking him if the $700 million Crosstown was also an example of central planning. It is usually pretty obvious when someone has vested interests in pavement, oil, etc - you see it in responses to DOK editorials and posts on OKCTalk.

Someone directed a question to the pseudo intellectual Kennedy asking him if the $700 million Crosstown was also an example of central planning. It is usually pretty obvious when someone has vested interests in pavement, oil, etc - you see it in responses to DOK editorials and posts on OKCTalk.

I wonder who that might have been. ;)

I posted this in another thread, but thought it would also bring some value to this thread.

http://gyazo.com/7a62f44e730842f9a4a3168d2a2b3721.png

I keep a running map of all new build (so no renovations are on this map -- too hard to keep track of their progress and display them on a map) construction downtown. Red is under construction, pink is an active proposal/in planning, blue is a rumor of development. And the green line is the Streetcar Route approved by council as Phase I.

People are contacting me to find out if this new twitter account is me. I can assure you that it is not. And as far as I personally know, it is no one with the streetcar project. I think it is is hilarious though. His interview came out in print today.- Jeff

https://twitter.com/James_Greiner?refsrc=email

Fake James Greiner
@James_Greiner
My name is James, but deep down I wish everyone would call me Jimmy.
OKC Ward 1 · http://ihaterails.com

Some of those are pretty funny.

Which one of you guys is doing this.......it's really funny.

The US federal government in cooperation with banks, the housing industry, auto companies, and road construction industry have specifically passed laws and standards that force us to use their products - with the taxpayers picking up most of the cost. I wonder what Richard thinks of Obamacare. To think that modern urban sprawl with its Euclidian single-use zoning is anything other than collectivism and central planning on a grand scale is naïve (it sure as hell isn't free-market). There is nothing more free or individual than walking - NOTHING, but it requires mixed-use walkable neighborhoods, and mixed-use walkable neighborhoods need to be connected by public transportation that expands the range of walking.

Yes, we have no free choice in America. We are controlled by the government....and the bogey men...and the conspirators....and everyone I don't agree with.

And we wonder why the tea party is considered lunatic fringe by many. They proclaim they want freedom but want everyone to live just like they want them to. LOL.

There is a place for the suburbs and a place for dense urban areas. We need both in OKC.

It's not a conspiracy Rover. They did it right out in the open. For example, in this country we measure economic growth by auto sales and new housing starts.

This is just a guess: Richard Kennedy = Rover?

You are as close with your guess as you are with your theories

I'd like a do-over on the last four Presidential elections. That's not the way democracy works though.

Good read, and OKC is mentioned in the article:

Transit Spending Slows Urban Growth | Cato @ Liberty (http://www.cato.org/blog/transit-spending-slows-urban-growth)

Good read, and OKC is mentioned in the article:

Transit Spending Slows Urban Growth | Cato @ Liberty (http://www.cato.org/blog/transit-spending-slows-urban-growth)

I don't know that I buy that. I'm not going to check his math, but generally cities that have large mass transit systems are already relatively mature. We wouldn't expect to see NYC or Chicago experiencing 6 1/2 % growth for any reason. Second, the cost of improving transportation in these built up areas will be significantly higher than in less developed areas. Boston's Big Dig cost a fortune. I'm sure the cost of operating NYC's subway is substantially higher than OKC's trolley will be. Third, the population has been shifting towards newer cities in the Sun Belt for reasons other than anything contained in this article. Generally these cities don't have established mass transportation systems at all.

Why stop at 1990? Why not go back and look at growth trends from the 1940s on to today?

Site near I-40 picked for Oklahoma City streetcar garage

A site near the planned downtown Oklahoma City park is cost-effective and would fit well with future development goals, consultants say.

By William Crum Modified: November 20, 2013 at 8:23 pm • Published: November 21, 2013

Consultants said Wednesday that a block adjacent to Interstate 40 near the planned downtown park would be the best choice for the MAPS 3 streetcar maintenance facility.

The $5.5 million, 20,000-square-foot garage will serve the downtown streetcar, which is to open in 2017. Construction of the streetcar route is supposed to total $94.4 million.

Streetcars will run in a 4.6-mile loop through downtown, between Bricktown and Midtown.

The block, bounded by I-40 and SW 7 Street between Hudson and Walker avenues, is a cost-effective alternative to two potential Bricktown sites, a streetcar advisory panel was told.

Zoning is compatible with use as an industrial maintenance facility, and the land is part of a previous deal between the city and state dating to the relocation of I-40.

The site would include parking lots, and the maintenance garage could be expanded to 35,000 square feet as the streetcar system grows, consultants said in their presentation.

Drawings included the possible addition of a three- or four-story parking structure, and potential for street-level retail development.

The maintenance facility would be tucked into a corner of the site, screened from the nearby park and land to the north that's expected to be converted to residences.

A track leading from the streetcar route on W Reno Avenue would run down Hudson before turning into the garage.

The site ties in with hopes for extending the streetcar line to the park and through future residential developments.

Plans call for the initial route to run within a block of the park. With a budget of $132 million, the 70-acre park is one of the biggest MAPS 3 projects.

Site near I-40 picked for Oklahoma City streetcar garage | News OK (http://newsok.com/site-near-i-40-picked-for-oklahoma-city-streetcar-garage/article/3906764)

So, basically the block west of Union Station.

Good read, and OKC is mentioned in the article:

Transit Spending Slows Urban Growth | Cato @ Liberty (http://www.cato.org/blog/transit-spending-slows-urban-growth)

Randal O'Toole is a paid anti-transit, anti-rail, anti-urbanism, anti-smart growth, anti-land use planning Libertarian whose sole mission is to try to counter federal, state and municipal efforts regarding those issues through his writings and public presentations. He frequently twists select information from various studies and statistics into misleading misinformation in an effort to sway public sentiment and governmental policy decision-making. He goes so far as to write editorials in local newspapers and travel for local speaking events and talk shows in cities that are in the process of making final decisions on rail transit projects. He is currently on the attack against modern streetcar projects in numerous cities, including most recently in San Antonio and Oklahoma City. Make no mistake, he is a mouthpiece and propagandist on a crusade against what he considers the evils of modern public transportation systems and land use planning efforts.

The Imminent Irrelevance of Randal O?Toole | Streetsblog New York City (http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/07/transit-hater-randal-otoole-gets-no-love-at-senate-hearing/)

A track leading from the streetcar route on W Reno Avenue would run down Hudson before turning into the garage.


Does this extra ~2000 feet (total estimation) of track count against our 4.6 miles?

Randal O'Toole is a paid anti-transit, anti-rail, anti-urbanism, anti-smart growth, anti-land use planning Libertarian whose sole mission is to try to counter federal, state and municipal efforts regarding those issues through his writings and public presentations. He frequently twists select information from various studies and statistics into misleading misinformation in an effort to sway public sentiment and governmental policy decision-making. He goes so far as to write editorials in local newspapers and travel for local speaking events and talk shows in cities that are in the process of making final decisions on rail transit projects. He is currently on the attack against modern streetcar projects in numerous cities, including most recently in San Antonio and Oklahoma City. Make no mistake, he is a mouthpiece and propagandist on a crusade against what he considers the evils of modern public transportation systems and land use planning efforts.

The Imminent Irrelevance of Randal O?Toole | Streetsblog New York City (http://www.streetsblog.org/2009/07/07/transit-hater-randal-otoole-gets-no-love-at-senate-hearing/)


More rebuttal to the misinformation being propagated by Randal O'Toole about Modern Streetcars:

Response to Misleading and False Statements by Cato Institute (http://extras.mysanantonio.com/pdf/20121129_CatoResponse.pdf)

Does this extra ~2000 feet (total estimation) of track count against our 4.6 miles?

No. The preliminary budget for the maintenance facility included 2,000' of non-revenue track to access the facility. The additional 1,500' or so of track that will be needed is expected to be balanced out by lower site acquisition costs compared to the Bricktown parking lot sites. Breaking the parking lot lease with Karchmer would have added futher expense and there would have been the need to comply with Bricktown zoning and design requirements. Overall, this site is a good, cost-effective choice.

Good to know thanks (haven't been keeping up with this thread).

It is a great site and resolves the issue of going directly down to the park and Core to Shore area. It also helps set up future connections to the river and Capitol Hill. I will try to go out and take some pictures and video of the site when I get a chance.