You mean the MAPS 3 streetcar/intermodal hub matching funds. Previous councilors fought to include the $10 million hub funds in the streetcar budget. This is a victory for all of public transit in Oklahoma City, not just the streetcar.

This is great news! It would seem that the Feds would rather pay for an intermodal hub in Oklahoma City than a single form of transit. This is not an affirmation of the streetcar project by itself, but of the planning efforts to bring many modes of transit to a point of connectivity (the streetcar being one of them).

I swear you are a spin machine for Ed. If we hadn't busted our a** to get that initial $120 million and worked (the volunteers) with Sam Bowman and Pete White to add that $10 million, there wouldn't be any meaningful transit element to MAPS 3. You wouldn't believe the effort that it took.

Ed didn't vote in the election, he didn't participate and fight for these issues, he didn't assist in any meaningful way. I'm tired of your attempts to try to justify some of the bulls**t that he has been saying.

We won significant money for rail transit and it was directly tied to monetary and programming efforts with streetcar. End of story.

You mean the MAPS 3 streetcar/intermodal hub matching funds. Pete White and Sam Bowman fought to include the hub in the streetcar project.

We fought for that damn hub study and forced it to be done as a reconciliation between ODOT and OnTrac for the travesty in mismanagement (on all sides) that was Union Station. MTP backed up OnTrac through the city process and it became policy.

The study gave cover for Sam Bowman and Pete White to make a legitimate argument that we should put aside a minimum of ($10 million) and the entire package was campaigned for in tandem bundled with the streetcar project.

And guess what two transit functions justify a hub? Streetcar meets AMTRAK. Those are the only modes in the initial phase planned.

Don't you people dare try to make some weak case about this federal funding not being because of MAPS 3 or the streetcar project.

So ******* tired of it.

krisb - keep coming back, you're making it easy for a whole lot of voters out there........and not in Ed's favor.

Not just the dozen echo board posters as you claim, but the thousands of guest that read this site.....

We fought for that damn hub study and forced it to be done as a reconciliation between ODOT and OnTrac for the travesty in mismanagement (on all sides) that was Union Station. MTP backed up OnTrac through the city process and it became policy.

The study gave cover for Sam Bowman and Pete White to make a legitimate argument that we should put aside a minimum of ($10 million) and the entire package was campaigned for in tandem bundled with the streetcar project.

The truth is a powerful thing.

I was there in 2009 as President of OnTrac. Ed was nowhere to be found. We were nearing the end of the Union Station fight. We were about out of options after the STB ruling, other than pursing an EIS legal challenge. We made the decision to use what influence we had left to move in a different direction for the future of rail transit. We met with MTP. We had discussions with Pete White and Sam Bowman and Meg Salyer and Mayor Cornett. And then we sat down with ODOT and agreed to forego any legal challenge in return for their support for an intermodal hub study. Then we agreed to support MAPS 3 and the Modern Streetcar Project if the $10 million that Pete and Sam were requesting for the intermodal hub was approved. When MAPS 3 passed, we all charged ahead together to create our transit future and we have never looked back.

The $120 million for the streetcar...the $10 million for the hub...the $300,000 for the hub study...the $1.25 million for the commuter corridor analysis...the $375,000 TIGER grant for streetcar planning...the $750,000 TIGER grant for EKG...the $13.6 million TIGER grant for Santa Fe Station...the $3.5 million ODOT/ACOG match for Santa Fe Station...those are all a result of the tremendous efforts and sacrifice of many over the last five years to find a way to work together to create our transit future.

Ed can continue to stare in the rear view mirror and cast all the aspersions he wants. But the rest of us know where the future lies and how to get there, and the direction is forward...together.

We fought for that damn hub study and forced it to be done as a reconciliation between ODOT and OnTrac for the travesty in mismanagement (on all sides) that was Union Station. MTP backed up OnTrac through the city process and it became policy.

The study gave cover for Sam Bowman and Pete White to make a legitimate argument that we should put aside a minimum of ($10 million) and the entire package was campaigned for in tandem bundled with the streetcar project.

The truth is a powerful thing.

I was there in 2009 as President of OnTrac. Ed was nowhere to be found. We were nearing the end of the Union Station fight. We were about out of options after the STB ruling, other than pursing an EIS legal challenge. We made the decision to use what influence we had left to move in a different direction for the future of rail transit. We met with MTP. We had discussions with Pete White and Sam Bowman and Meg Salyer and Mayor Cornett. And then we sat down with ODOT and agreed to forego any legal challenge in return for their support for an intermodal hub study. Then we agreed to support MAPS 3 and the Modern Streetcar Project if the $10 million that Pete and Sam were requesting for the intermodal hub was approved. When MAPS 3 passed, we all charged ahead together to create our transit future and we have never looked back.

The $120 million for the streetcar...the $10 million for the hub...the $300,000 for the hub study...the $1.25 million for the commuter corridor analysis...the $375,000 TIGER grant for streetcar planning...the $750,000 TIGER grant for EKG...the $13.6 million TIGER grant for Santa Fe Station...the $3.5 million ODOT/ACOG match for Santa Fe Station...those are all a result of the tremendous efforts and sacrifice of many over the last five years to find a way to work together to create our transit future.

Ed can continue to stare in the rear view mirror and cast all the aspersions he wants. But the rest of us know where the future lies and how to get there, and the direction is forward...together.

the direction is forward...together.

If he had only figured this out, he would be a lot further along in his campaign with a great deal less resistance.

Trying to pit transit supporters against each other for him to grandstand.... geez

You are all to be commended for your hard work. I spoke before the city council in support of the streetcar project but that is a small thing compared to the political maneuvering that you all accomplished.

Thank You

We are so EXCITED!

A preview of OKC's Santa Fe Station - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNHICNy5R30&feature=youtu.be)

Thanks SW Aviator and Catch 22.

I can't wait to see the tunnel opened up. It will be a great new entrance in Bricktown.

So What Happens Next at Santa Fe Depot? | News OK (http://newsok.com/so-what-happens-next-at-santa-fe-depot/article/3880403)

Since the only thing running out of the Santa Fe station right now is the Amtrak to Ft Worth, do you all think the first thing to be built new will be covered areas for trains? Obviously an updating of the interior and exterior will probably be first.

I thonk the streetscape, building remodeling/renovation, tunnel to Bricktown, and a well designed pedestrian connection to streetcar stops are first priority.

I thonk the streetscape, building remodeling/renovation, tunnel to Bricktown, and a well designed pedestrian connection to streetcar stops are first priority.

Obviously part of the streetscape will be covered with the $750,000 grant. How much is it expecting to cost total?

Here's the master plan, architectural rendering and cost breakdown of Phase 1 and 2 from the hub study:

4375

4376

4377

Note that the costs include approximately $19 million for a parking garage facility and intercity bus terminal to be located at some point in the future on the current parking lot west of the U-Haul building. In addition, several million dollars are allocated for construction of the new Transit Hall adjoining the existing depot building. Those facilities and improvements are not critical in the near term. The discussions need to be directed at how to best apply the $23.9 million remaining after the $4.5 million expenditure for the acquisition of the property for those other items identified as part Phase 1 and 2 development.

As long as the streetcars aren't painted in the gawdy scheme of our metro buses, I'm cool...

I assume the only streetscapes that will be done will be EK Gaylord from Sheridan to Reno directly in front of the station. I would also assume the parking facility will be built either by COPTA or the city and would either come from those funds or grants related to it. So, the $13.5 million grant will probably go more towards the building renovation and adding on to the north, the BT connection and pedestrian connections to the the streetcar. I am curious how much work needs to be done to get the building up to how we would want it to handle the kind of traffic we are expecting.

I think the pedestrian tunnel to Bricktown is critical to distributing passengers from the hub so that will probably be one of the main renovations in the next couple of years. I hope these funds can/will be used to run the streetcar down EK Gaylord and build a stop closer to the station rather than waiting for MAPS3 Phase II.

There are a couple things to be decided that have the potential to provide the cost efficiencies needed so there will not be many compromises in the route. (No tail track in Midtown, adding switches at the the 4th&Robinson intersection,etc) The location of the maintenance / storage facility, the TIGER Grant, the project sequencing for the Santa Fe hub, etc. This week has been one filled with good news for our first step to building the transit system most of us are so excited about.

As long as the streetcars aren't painted in the gawdy scheme of our metro buses, I'm cool...

Looks like the color scheme and name of Metro Transit may be changing in November to Embark.

Oklahoma City's bus agency gets a new name and new image | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-citys-bus-agency-gets-a-new-name-and-new-image/article/3880161link).

Has there been any thought to an official name or nickname for the streetcar? Kind of like the Metro in DC, Tube/Underground in London, L in Chicago etc.

Looks like the color scheme and name of Metro Transit may be changing in November to Embark.

Oklahoma City's bus agency gets a new name and new image | News OK (http://newsok.com/oklahoma-citys-bus-agency-gets-a-new-name-and-new-image/article/3880161link).

They should have gone with GOCART - Greater Oklahoma City Area Rapid Transit. The tag line possibilities are endless (like - Everyone wants a GOCART).

They should have gone with GOCART - Greater Oklahoma City Area Rapid Transit. The tag line possibilities are endless (like - Everyone wants a GOCART).

That would've been way cool!!!

Yea, the problem is Metro Transit paid someone to come with a generic name, so my free one that plays on childhood dreams and fun wouldn't have had a chance.

Billboard on I-35 South: Trade in your Chevy for a GOCART. Trains serving Norman every 30 minutes.
Billboard on I-35 North: BMWs are cool - GOCARTS are cooler. Trains serving Edmond every 30 minutes.
Bumper sticker/license plate frame: My other car is a GOCART

Unfortunately COTPA has decided to rebrand their transit operations as "Embark". I forget how much they paid those consultants but it was too much.

How could a person not want to ride something called 'Embark'? There is fun, coolness, and excitement just oozing from the name. It makes me want to go ride a bus right now. [/sarc]

On the hand - it is 11:34 PM on a Sunday night here in Jax and I would seriously go ride a go cart right now if someone offered me a ride.

Knowing OKC's population's relative virgin-ness toward rail.. It will probably be called by the locals the train. Or the monorail. Or something.

i always wanted Metro of Oklahoma Rapid Transit. I would totally support the MORT!

i always wanted Metro of Oklahoma Rapid Transit. I would totally support the MORT!

METROKC...

Oklahoma City Transport Of People Until Stopped or OCTOPUS...

The irony is that all this could become irrelevant if COTPA isn't morphed into the RTA role.

Larry, can you give it a rest??? I mean geez. The park is one block away. That is a connection. People do walk in and to parks right?

Union Station is irrelevant as a transit facility other than the House of COTPA.

You said earlier it was a connection when it touched the corner of the Park. Now that it is a block away, it is still a connection? How many blocks away before it isn't a connection any more? Yes folks walk to and in parks, but what is your point? They also walk to other places as well. Following your line of thinking, we don't really need any sort of transportation at all...scrap the Streetcar, buses and everything else...Union Station is only irrelevant becuase City leadership and the Subcommittee & Consultants have chosen to make it irrelevant.

It is a no-brainer that the Streetcar should connect as many of the MAPS 3 projects together as possible. Even betts saw the logic in it early on. Unlike some other the projects that are outside of the geographic area, the Park is definitely doable. The best way to repurpose a building that is being saved is to utilize it for the same or related purpose. Can't be a "real" train station anymore, fine, make it Streetcar stop and utilize it for other Park related modes of transportation (bike & boat rentals etc). .. a Park mini-transit hub. Have a transportation themed snack and/or gift shop etc. Why are you working so hard AGAINST the symbiotic nature of the some of the MAPS 3 projects. I just don't get it.

I appreciate all that you and others have done to further the Streetcar and mass-transit overall. But as long as you have been involved in this you seem to fly off the handle at myself and others at some of the slightest criticisms . I would think you would have developed a much thicker skin over time.


So, with the approximately $10 million to purchase it and then $13.5 million to renovate, how far are we from a complete intermodal hub? Another $50 million or so?
According to the info that came out after the vote, the complete intermodal transit hub is expected to cost $127 million…so roughly $100 million more to go! Mostly from other sources…even though the Mayor said they didn't put anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves.

Santa Fe depot called a potential site for downtown OKC transit hub | News OK (http://newsok.com/santa-fe-depot-called-a-potential-site-for-downtown-okc-transit-hub/article/3560500)
Santa Fe depot called a potential site for downtown OKC transit hub (Oklahoman 4/21/11)

The MAPS 3 ballot approved by voters in 2009 includes an estimated $10 million for a transit hub to serve a new $120 million streetcar system.

The $10 million cost had risen to $26 million in this article and ultimately $127 million (even though the Mayor said nothing was being put into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves).
Oklahoma Gazette News: Alternate route (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-14268-alternate-route.html)
Alternate route, Gazette, January 31st, 2012


The MAPS 3 Citizens Advisory Board voted Jan. 26 to recommend the City Council approve purchase of the Santa Fe Train Depot to serve as a convergence for several modes of transportation in the city, including car, rail, bicycle and possibly bus.
The city already set aside $10 million of the $127 million in MAPS 3 streetcar funding to pay for the acquisition and streetcar-related improvements to the station.*

But a setback came in late December, when the city learned its application was denied for $17 million from a federal Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery (TIGER) III grant. That money was to constitute the majority of $26 million in funding for the city’s planned intermodal transportation hub.
…
The plan 
The three phases of hub construction were estimated to cost around $127 million, spread between federal and state funding, as well as among several cities participating in the regional transit plan.

The $26 million seems tied to Federal funding (in direct contradiction to the Mayor's statement about not putting anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves). I can't find any mention of multiple phases etc until after the vote passed.... This is similar to the Convention Center and its multiple phases (but they did let that slip out before the vote, but was barely mentioned.[/QUOTE]

Why are you working so hard AGAINST the symbiotic nature of the some of the MAPS 3 projects. I just don't get it.

I appreciate all that you and others have done to further the Streetcar and mass-transit overall. But as long as you have been involved in this you seem to fly off the handle at myself and others at some of the slightest criticisms . I would think you would have developed a much thicker skin over time.


According to the info that came out after the vote, the complete intermodal transit hub is expected to cost $127 million…so roughly $100 million more to go! Mostly from other sources…even though the Mayor said they didn't put anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves.



Santa Fe depot called a potential site for downtown OKC transit hub | News OK (http://newsok.com/santa-fe-depot-called-a-potential-site-for-downtown-okc-transit-hub/article/3560500)
Santa Fe depot called a potential site for downtown OKC transit hub (Oklahoman 4/21/11)

The $10 million cost had risen to $26 million in this article and ultimately $127 million

The $26 million seems tied to Federal funding (in direct contradiction to the Mayor's statement about not putting anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves). I can't find any mention of multiple phases etc until after the vote passed.... This is similar to the Convention Center and its multiple phases (but they did let that slip out before the vote, but was barely mentioned.[/QUOTE]

after reading this it is pretty clear that you either choose not remember .. or intentionally make stuff up

Larry, why is your thinking so concrete? The $10 million was to be used to purchase the hub, and could also be used for transit. We weren't sure how much money would would have available after purchasing the hub to make improvements. No one was told anything more than that we would have a hub. And we will, for a purchase price of about half the money available. The hub study was designed to look ahead at transit needs as far in the future as 20 years from now. The expanded hub design that was shown as part of the hub design was a plan for what they would like to see in the future, if we get commuter rail, and in the event that we have high speed rail and move the bus station to the hub. Every city plans for what they would like to see for the future. That's what the fixed guideways study was doing in 2005, and the hub study was an extension of that. If you're not planning for the future, you don't have a chance to improve and grow. The voters will ultimately get to decide if they want commuter rail and if they then want to expand the hub. Nothing can be done without the consent of the voters.

The federal money is a bonus, and helps us do things we either couldn't afford to do, or we would have to ask the taxpayers if they wanted them. They were never a given, but these improvements will allow us to do some exciting things that will make the station more than just a place to buy tickets and wait for trains.

You said earlier it was a connection when it touched the corner of the Park. Now that it is a block away, it is still a connection? How many blocks away before it isn't a connection any more? Yes folks walk to and in parks, but what is your point? They also walk to other places as well. Following your line of thinking, we don't really need any sort of transportation at all...scrap the Streetcar, buses and everything else...Union Station is only irrelevant becuase City leadership and the Subcommittee & Consultants have chosen to make it irrelevant.

I would be willing to say if something is three blocks away or more, a lot of people in OKC will either complain or consider another mode of transportation. I am not talking visitors, I am talking locals. I know there are plenty of people within the urban core (Sid, Betts, Metro, etc) who can walk six blocks or more without a thought but since OKC is currently designed around the automobile, people will complain about not being able to park right in front of the park, play and then drive back to Edmond. The reason Union station is irrelevant is because of its location. If Union Station were six blocks further north, it would probably be the Hub because of all the ties it had to the rail lines. But no one was going to take a commuter rail to Union Station then walk 3/4 of a mile, just to get The Peake not to mention BT being another two blocks east and Devon another two blocks north.


According to the info that came out after the vote, the complete intermodal transit hub is expected to cost $127 million…so roughly $100 million more to go! Mostly from other sources…even though the Mayor said they didn't put anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves.

The $26 million seems tied to Federal funding (in direct contradiction to the Mayor's statement about not putting anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves). I can't find any mention of multiple phases etc until after the vote passed.... This is similar to the Convention Center and its multiple phases (but they did let that slip out before the vote, but was barely mentioned.

I asked Steve in his chat a few weeks ago and he said, "Um, no. Actually, this pretty much gets close to the end game on this project with funding already in place." I think with the $13.5 million TIGER grant, $4.5 million or so the purchase the SFS, $750,000 for the EKG streetscape, $3.5 million ODOT/ACOG match for SFS that gives us $22.25 million and I know I am leaving some grants/funds out somewhere. I think that will get us to where we want to be right now, but there will have to be more go into it for commuter rail, bus improvements and facility improvements. I don't see more facility improvements happening until 2020 or so when the Cox Center is torn down and redeveloped. I guess they could use the large parking lots in BT and the parking lot south of Reno on the east side, but to go big, we need more space.

BoulderSooner: what are you saying I don't remember or am making up?


Larry, why is your thinking so concrete?...
Why isn't your thinking concrete (these are capital projects after all)?;)

Because that is what we were led to believe. That the $10 million earmarked for the Intermodal Transit Hub, wouldn't be just to purchase the land and make it a Streetcar stop, but a fully functioning Intermodal Hub including Amtrak, City & Commercial buses, Streetcars, Light rail etc. If you can point to ANY media articles or campaign literature to the contrary, please post.

I agree that any Federal money would be a bonus just as getting Federal money would possibly get us more than the 5 to 6 miles of Streetcars or future expansion. Absolutely nowhere have I been able to find anything that implied that the Intermodal Transit Hub was a "starter hub" or anything of the sort. Without that being in there, it is implied that the Hub would be fully functional for the stated purposes and could be done within the $10 million earmarked for it. The Mayor said they didn't put anything into MAPS 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves (alluding to the original MAPS where the Streetcars were dependent on getting a good chunk the money from the Feds. That didn't happen and we got the rubber tired trolleys instead. If you are depending on Federal money (the above mentioned increase to $26 million), that isn't something we could pay for ourselves, is it?

And of course, IF the City decides to pay for something with a new tax (instead of using existing revenue streams. Fed money etc), they are required by law to put it to a vote.


I would be willing to say if something is three blocks away or more, a lot of people in OKC will either complain or consider another mode of transportation. I am not talking visitors, I am talking locals. I know there are plenty of people within the urban core (Sid, Betts, Metro, etc) who can walk six blocks or more without a thought but since OKC is currently designed around the automobile, people will complain about not being able to park right in front of the park, play and then drive back to Edmond. The reason Union station is irrelevant is because of its location. If Union Station were six blocks further north, it would probably be the Hub because of all the ties it had to the rail lines. But no one was going to take a commuter rail to Union Station then walk 3/4 of a mile, just to get The Peake not to mention BT being another two blocks east and Devon another two blocks north....
Did I ever say that Union Station would be the only stop, that there couldn't wouldn't be stops at the Peake or Devon or any other location? I would prefer that Union Station be THE hub, but it can't be for the reasons you stated. That doesn't mean that it can't be used as a Streetcar Stop and it be used for a similar purpose it was built. The fact is, the current proposed route is a block away from the northern edge of the Park. The way the Park is going to be laid out, it is several blocks long. Union Station is a natural "mid-point to the Park and doesn't require someone to transverse the whole length along the Harvey Spine (which seems to be non-existant now). Why make it further away from the Park instead of running along side it? Why is it going to some of the other locations that it is going...for connectivity! Correct me if I am wrong, but it isn't going a block away from Bricktown, but looping thru it. The same reasoning Urban had for walking to the Park can easily be applied to Bricktown or any other point. Just have the Streetcar stop in front of the transit Hub and let folks walk to Bricktown....

We need to connect as many of the MAPS 3 projects with the Streetcar as possible. Some are geographically out of range with the functionally limited 2.5 to 3 miles of double track we have. The Park is definitely within that area.


I asked Steve in his chat a few weeks ago and he said, "Um, no. Actually, this pretty much gets close to the end game on this project with funding already in place." I think with the $13.5 million TIGER grant, $4.5 million or so the purchase the SFS, $750,000 for the EKG streetscape, $3.5 million ODOT/ACOG match for SFS that gives us $22.25 million and I know I am leaving some grants/funds out somewhere. I think that will get us to where we want to be right now, but there will have to be more go into it for commuter rail, bus improvements and facility improvements. I don't see more facility improvements happening until 2020 or so when the Cox Center is torn down and redeveloped. I guess they could use the large parking lots in BT and the parking lot south of Reno on the east side, but to go big, we need more space.
I would agree if Steve was only talking about it being a the Hub for Amtrak/Streetcar only. For the rest of what was touted during the campaign, the City/Council has stated that the total cost is going to be $127 million (mol). Conveniently not mentioned before the vote. It falls into the same category as the Convention Center being broken up into multiple phases & the unfunded C.C. hotel, only mentioned in passing during the campaign. The campaign will be along the lines of we need to "Finish MAPS 3 Right". The logic being we have put to much money into it now, to leave it half finished etc (Native American Cultural Center?) to not approve more funding.

BoulderSooner: what are you saying I don't remember or am making up?



because you continue to post things that simply are not true and you have been shown are not true as facts

BoulderSooner: Please be specific. What exactly have I posted that isn't true?

bouldersooner: Please be specific. What exactly have i posted that isn't true?


1. union station is only irrelevant becuase city leadership and the subcommittee & consultants have chosen to make it irrelevant.
2. Why are you working so hard against the symbiotic nature of the some of the maps 3 projects. I just don't get it.

3. the mayor said they didn't put anything into maps 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves. (the phase 3 hub was never a maps 3 project)

4. the $10 million cost had risen to $26 million in this article and ultimately $127 million (not close to the truth)

5. the $26 million seems tied to federal funding (in direct contradiction to the mayor's statement about not putting anything into maps 3 that we couldn't pay for ourselves).

6. I can't find any mention of multiple phases etc until after the vote passed....

7. This is similar to the convention center and its multiple phases (but they did let that slip out before the vote, but was barely mentioned.[/quote]

pretty simple

[Because that is what we were led to believe. That the $10 million earmarked for the Intermodal Transit Hub, wouldn't be just to purchase the land and make it a Streetcar stop, but a fully functioning Intermodal Hub including Amtrak, City & Commercial buses, Streetcars, Light rail etc. If you can point to ANY media articles or campaign literature to the contrary, please post.

I hate to even chime in on this discussion because Larry I know you believe what you wrote is true and I am not going to argue about what you believe, but you are the only person in Oklahoma that believes this. I live 1000 miles away and even I know the $10 million was not for a fully operational hub and if someone tried to convince me that it was I would think that person was crazy.

Serious question, do you believe a fully functional multi-modal transit hub can be built for $10 million?

Larry, if you could find some of those quotes about the current (Santa Fe Depot as it exists today) hub being all we would need for rail and bus transit for the next 25 years, I would be appreciative. You'll be able to use them as ammo if the city decides to put an expansion of the hub on a future MAPS or transit ballot, so your time will not be wasted.

The hub as it exists is great for our current needs. But were transit to expand exponentially over the next couple of decades, we might need more space. That's not really surprising to me.

The streetcar has a phase II. One of two options is an extension along the west side of the park. The other extends towards the Health Sciences Center on 4th St. So there is a reasonable chance the streetcar will not only get to the park, but travel alongside it.

i appreciate all that you and others have done to further the streetcar and mass-transit overall. but as long as you have been involved in this you seem to fly off the handle at myself and others at some of the slightest criticisms.

I would think you would have developed a much thicker skin over time.

Actually I think that I have shown remarkable restraint considering your relentless perspective.

The problem with Larry is that he seizes upon a quote and it sticks in his mind for 20+ years. I would not be surprised in the slightest if there was a quote from Ron Norick in 1993 about the cost of the Bricktown Ballpark that Larry can whip out at a moment's notice.

This is generally good for reminding us about promises that were made and not kept. The problem, of course, is that isolated quotes taken out of context, or used alone outside of a continued discussion, can often give a different impression than how they were originally intended. It's like pulling out that Bill Gates quote where he says no one will ever need more than 640K memory. Fact is, history doesn't end with a single quote. With as many public statements made and as much public discussion that goes on with the MAPS program, a single line from a politician doesn't give us an accurate view of what the information really was at the time of the vote.

And the other question is why would you WANT a $10M transit hub?

I'm sitting at Corner Bakery in downtown Houston watching streetcar go by, and I didn't even notice the overhead wire until I thought about looking for it. It's definitely not ugly, in fact it's hardly visible. It makes me excited for OKC!

BoulderSooner: I will not go into them point by point other than to ask on #4, you said it wasn't close to the truth. I provided the Gazette link and pertinent info from the article. Was the Gazette wrong?

QUOTE=Just the facts;685749]I hate to even chime in on this discussion because Larry I know you believe what you wrote is true and I am not going to argue about what you believe, but you are the only person in Oklahoma that believes this. I live 1000 miles away and even I know the $10 million was not for a fully operational hub and if someone tried to convince me that it was I would think that person was crazy.

Serious question, do you believe a fully functional multi-modal transit hub can be built for $10 million?[/QUOTE]
Yep. Why? I don't know what a mile of Trails or Sidewalks cost. The per-mile cost of a modern streetcar. The cost of a Senior Aquatic Wellness Center etc. Nor do I know the cost of a fully functional Intermodal Transit Hub. The voter presumes that the experts behind the scenes that come up with the numbers know what they are talking about and present the info honestly (and don't try to hide the real cost by splitting things up into phases etc).

I don't know what a Convention Center costs either but going by the highly suspect numbers that the consultants came up with before the vote and then we found out after the vote that to get their revenue increase, that out of area Convention Business would have to increase not just 3-fold (300%) but 9-fold (900%), I don't think the money budget for it is going to be nearly enough either.



Larry, if you could find some of those quotes about the current (Santa Fe Depot as it exists today) hub being all we would need for rail and bus transit for the next 25 years, I would be appreciative. You'll be able to use them as ammo if the city decides to put an expansion of the hub on a future MAPS or transit ballot, so your time will not be wasted.

The hub as it exists is great for our current needs. But were transit to expand exponentially over the next couple of decades, we might need more space. That's not really surprising to me.

The streetcar has a phase II. One of two options is an extension along the west side of the park. The other extends towards the Health Sciences Center on 4th St. So there is a reasonable chance the streetcar will not only get to the park, but travel alongside it.
i never suggested that it would be all that we would need for the next 25 years. There is a huge difference between what you are saying and what I am saying.

RE bolded part: Great! Then we came in way under the $10 million budget as the City is acquiring it for only $4.5(?) million. We're coming out further ahead with the other various grants (maybe we can use that excess for the trails, Sidewalks, Senior Centers and of course the Convention Center when it runs over budget. Great job everyone involved!

Someone may have answered this already and I didn't see it. But is the Phase II you are talking about part of MAPS 3 or is it a possible future expansion under a MAPS 4 or other initiative (like Phase 2 of the Convention Center)?


For everyone that thinks the $10 million was just for acquisition of an existing site, please post any pre-vote info that indicated that (esp mass media, the Oklahoman or Gazette etc.. I have not been able to locate it.

Also, please note where I have taken anything out of context. They said what they said. If they don't mean it, then don't say it.

I believe that the study said something like $65 to $85 million for a full "Phase 3" build out of a fully functional hub. That would be in today's dollars.

I plan on reading the study again cover to cover before this next MAPS 3 Subcommittee meeting to form some of my own opinions as to what would be a judicious use of this money considering the new information we now have after the study was completed as it relates to the streetcar and so forth.

The phase II of the streetcar is part of MAPS III, if that's what you're referring to. It's built into the timeline and the budget. I don't think there was anything pre-vote that indicated what a hub would cost, which is probably why you cant find anything. I know we had no idea what the Brewers would ask for it, nor no idea what the judge would determine was its value, if it came to eminent domain. That's probably why there was such a huge disparity between what the city offered and what the Brewers asked. I knew there was$10 million in MAPS money available, and we're getting more than we hoped for our money, with the matching TIGER grant.

The hub sub-committe after the vote came up with future plans and recommendations for eventual expansion of the hub, based on what they foresaw future needs to be.

I believe extra MAPS money from sales receipts is being split up between each ward, so every part of the city can benefit from the extra money.

betts: True. We didn't even know if an existing building was going to be the Hub or if a new one was going to have to be built from scratch (in which case would $10 million been enough?). On the other hand, sometimes it can be cheaper or about the same to build new rather than renovate (Convention Center, County Jail). We may be talking semantics here, but it was well known during the campaign that the Hub cost was going to be $10 million. My qualm about it (unlike the Streetcars) I can't find any indication that it was a "starter" hub. That one simple word would make all the difference. Then you can justify the increase to $20+ million mentioned in the Gazette article or maybe even the $127 million decided upon after the vote. But by all of the reporting and campaign materials I saw, it was to be a fully functional Intermodal Transit Hub (exactly what that would include varies somewhat) for the $10 million.

Regarding the Phase II of the Streetcar that might run along the Park. How does the timeline for it being completed (if it happens) align with the Park completion?

Is the extra sales tax revenue exclusively from MAPS or is it overall? Personally would think they should put any excess revenue MAPS funds back into MAPS to help offset the known cost overruns (esp with Sidewalks & Trails). Am ok with general fund taxes being split up (but again to go for fund things that may have been cut instead of new projects)

from the resolution ...

2. A new rail-based streetcar system to service the inner city and/or to service other areas within The City of Oklahoma City, plus funding for other transit infrastructure as appropriate, such as connections to other rail-based system and/or a transit hub.

Regarding the Phase II of the Streetcar that might run along the Park. How does the timeline for it being completed (if it happens) align with the Park completion?

Here is a link to the timeline:

City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://www.okc.gov/maps3/maps3timeline.html)

As you can see, Phase I of the park is supposed to start this year. Phase II is supposed to start in 2017. Here is the budget for the park:

Upper Section Land Acquisition and Site Prep $18,432,000
Upper Section Phase 1 A&E/Design/Testing/Admin $1,431,000
Upper Section Phase 1 Construction and FF&E $8,374,000
Upper Section Phase 1 Project Contingency $539,000
Upper Section Phase 2 A&E/Design/Testing/Admin $10,393,000
Upper Section Phase 2 Construction and FF&E $57,652,000
Upper Section Phase 2 Project Contingency $3,710,000
Lower Section Land Acquisition and Site Prep $13,470,000
Lower Section A&E/Design/Testing/Admin $3,105,000
Lower Section Construction and FF&E $14,151,000
Lower Section Project Contingency $911,000
Total $132,168,000

Also, you can see that the majority of the money is being spent during Upper section Phase II with $10,344,000 being spend on Upper section Phase I and $71,755,000 being spent on Upper section Phase II.

The first phase of the streetcar is supposed to start in 2014. Phase 2 will start in 2019. Again, this is all according to the okc.gov timeline linked above. Honestly, I would much rather see a connection to DD and an extension to OUHSC over the park. The Park is a two block walk from the northern most part to what is almost definitely going to be a stop between the Myriad Gardens and the new Convention Center. Although DD is a two block walk or more to a probable 4th and Broadway stop, there will be far more residents taking a streetcar than people going to the park.

Streetcar route, Shadid and his antics, and overhead wires.

https://soundcloud.com/moderntransitproject-okc/ktok-gwin-faulconer-lippert
I just listened to your interview with GF-L, Jeff, and you did a simply excellent job. Thanks so much!

Thanks much for the compliment!

Here's a few more good links to background information and reference materials concerning the Intermodal Hub and TIGER Grant:

ACOG Press Release (http://www.acogok.org/oklahoma-city-awarded-tiger-grant-for-santa-fe-intermodal-hub-)

OKC TIGER V Grant Page (http://www.okc.gov/recovery/tigerV/)

ACOG Intermodal Transportation Hub Study (http://www.acogok.org/hub-study)

Note the support letters for the Intermodal Hub grant from Oklahoma's Congressional delegation on the OKC grant page.

Exciting times! Oklahoma City's regional transit system future is finally on the horizon.

Those letters are really damn cool to see. It feels like we actually have support from above!

Somewhat of an aside, but it is pretty awesome to see the ACM@UCO referenced in Inhofe's letter.

So much more momentum than when we had Istook as the head of the Transportation committee or whatever he was on.

Those letters are really damn cool to see. It feels like we actually have support from above!

Somewhat of an aside, but it is pretty awesome to see the ACM@UCO referenced in Inhofe's letter.

Indeed. Wonder who ghost wrote it for him

So what's going on here?

From the gazette:

Moving along

Mayor says controversial streetcar project will happen: “The citizens have tasked us with building it, not talking about it.”

Tim Farley
September 18th, 2013

Advocates of the MAPS 3 modern streetcar system will take a “huge step” forward if the Oklahoma City Council approves a recommended route next week.

The council meets Tuesday to discuss the route, already approved by two MAPS 3 citizen panels. It includes Bricktown, the downtown business district, Automobile Alley and Midtown. It will come within a block of the proposed 70-acre downtown public park with a possible extension to the University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center.

“This is huge for us and huge for transportation overall in Oklahoma City,” said Nathaniel Harding, chairman of the Modern Streetcar subcommittee that has delved into the project’s details, route and technical issues over the last three years.

The route is considered still in progress because of design options that have not been finalized, Harding said, including the specific connection to the Midtown area and whether the Broadway Avenue segment will have a double track or form a couplet with Robinson Avenue.

OKC Mayor Mick Cornett acknowledged that debate about the recommended route likely will occur Tuesday.

“You could ask 10 different people and you might get 10 different routes,” he said. “There’s lots of ways to do it, but at the end of the day, you have to pick one and go with it. There’s been considerable study and debate, but now it’s time to put the rails in the ground.”

Cornett compared the controversial streetcar project to the canal, which was built using the original MAPS funding.

“After all was said and done, it (the canal) became one of the most popular aspects of that initiative. The citizens have tasked us with building it (the streetcar system), not talking about it.”

Specific attractions scheduled for construction along the 4.5-mile route will include the future MAPS 3 convention center and the future intermodal hub, which will be located at the Santa Fe railroad station.

Officials with project consultant Jacobs Engineering estimate the streetcar construction cost between $99 million and $109 million, with annual operation and maintenance expenses ranging from $2.5 million to $3 million.

Still, Ward 2 Councilman Ed Shadid, an outspoken critic of the project, wants specifics on how the city will fund operation and maintenance.

“It’s easy to build things, but it takes more sophistication to operate them and maintain them,” he said in an earlier interview.

Cathy O’Connor, president and chief executive officer of The Alliance for Economic Development of Oklahoma City, told the streetcar subcommittee this summer that she intended to meet with property owners along the recommended route to gauge their interest in forming a business improvement district (BID) or a tax increment financing (TIF) district.

Typically, a business improvement district requires property owners in a specific geographic region to pay assessed fees for detailed improvements. In this case, city officials have said BID assessments or TIF money could pay for the streetcar system’s operation and maintenance.

O’Connor, speaking through her public relations firm, declined to comment to Oklahoma Gazette on the meetings or provide a report detailing property owners’ interests. Josh Harlow of Jones Public Relations said O’Connor would not publicly disclose the findings until she presented them to the streetcar subcommittee on Wednesday, Sept. 25.

Shadid contends the meetings with property owners should have been held months before the route was approved to create a “bidding war” for the eventual streetcar route.

“Why would anyone want to pay now? They know where the route is going,” the councilman said.

“There were four city councilmen who requested at the beginning of the year that property owners on different (downtown) streets be contacted, but it wasn’t done. It’s stunning it wasn’t and even more stunning that four councilmen asked for it and it still wasn’t done.

Property owners are not going to help pay for the operations if you don’t ask the question.”

Shadid said he was surprised when O’Connor announced the Alliance was conducting meetings with streetcar route property owners.

“I’m still waiting (for the report),” he said.

Oklahoma Gazette News: MAPS 3 (http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-19285-moving-along.html)

Didn't the City Manager already say operation and maintenance could come out of the general fund?