Sounds good in theory. But BRT is much more sophisticated than current busses, can react to pedestrian and cars needs, and can be more flexible. They are doing
construction now on Sheridan. Go down there and pretend that we have a designated streetcar lane and how happy that experience makes you. Streetcars will not eliminate car traffic to and from downtown. Its just a circulator that will increase the congestion by just moving the people around that are already there. OKC is a car society and will always want close, convenient, and safe parking regardless. All this is a trolley ride around downtown OKC at the expense of more important and immediate transit needs. It just looks "cooler".

I disagree with every part of your post. BRT requires a dedicated lane to actually be unique and rapid, a very expensive prospect. Where are you going to find a lane to dedicate anywhere in downtown OKC? And why would you want it there anyway, since most people are going shorter distances. Streetcars share their lane with traffic. And the reason Oklahoma City is a car driven society is because there haven't been any other options for over 50 years, short of buses (which most people here don't want to ride) and the ghastly Bricktown trollies which were uncomfortable, unreliable and had no discernible route. You're completely out of touch with what many city dwellers want nowadays - to be as car free as possible. Read Steve Lackmeyers most recent article and inform yourself. Why are there so many streetcars planned in US cities? Because people visit those cities that already have streetcars and see how well they work.

Bus Rapid Transit is not a short-haul, frequent-stop transit mode. It isn't used for local transit service in core areas. It's the bus equivalent of commuter rail and is used for as a long-haul transit mode in dedicated lanes on highways and major 4 to 6 lane arterials. It's well suited for providing transit service down Northwest Expressway and Classen Boulevard to the Intermodal Hub, at which point riders would transfer to the streetcar to get within walking distance of their final destination downtown.

Thats not what I experienced on the KC trip.

One very cool aspect of "flipping" the route is it provides an opportunity for a rider to jump off at the crossing point and hop on another streetcar running the other direction. This enables a rider to shorten their trip if desired and largely negates all the talk of being "forced" to ride the entire loop on a return trip. Once again, no big deal. People routinely make transfers on transit systems around the world.

A little imagination reveals a few opportunities like that on Zeta. In fact, the "flip" may even present an opportunity to operate two loops independently of the other if turnouts can be installed where the route crosses. Might be handy for special events in downtown that might close streets - I am thinking of significant events like the marathon or rmaybe a NBA Championship parade..

I think the reason for flipping the track is to avoid a mine field of utilities on one side of Robinson, but we should look into how costly it would be because I think it's worth it to keep the streetcar on the insides of the block.

OKC City Council please reconsider the streetcar and discuss a new sophisticated BRT downtown circulator with convenient and clean stops. Provide digital efficient frequency timing, great signage and image, and an extensive marketing effort. Then connect this to the airport and other city attractions as well as serve all city
areas that are in need of quality transit.

We'll spend just as much on BRT and end up compromising the service quality and rider experience.

I think the reason for flipping the track is to avoid a mine field of utilities on one side of Robinson, but we should look into how costly it would be because I think it's worth it to keep the streetcar on the insides of the block.

The reason stated for incorporating the flip was to serve the civic/arts district and still serve Automobile Alley. After seeing the route and thinking about it, it makes sense. Utility issues was the reason for reversing the direction of travel on Robinson. Evidently there is a very large utility bunker somewhere under the northbound lane of Robinson that would be extremely expensive and disruptive to relocate. That is a situation that could occcur on nearly any route, but the solution was to adapt the routes studied a little to eliminate that issue.

The streetcar concept has legs if done right at the right time. Their are more important needs to our city's transit than to use all of the monies to build a few miles
of streetcar that might or might not work. Could or could not have the right route. Could ease of could increase congestion. We all agree it would be convenient, cool, and fun for tourist and downtowners. If this is the reason for it then just come out lets admit it. But what about everyone else in the city that needs transit.

OKC City Council please reconsider the streetcar and discuss a new sophisticated BRT downtown circulator with convenient and clean stops. Provide digital efficient frequency timing, great signage and image, and an extensive marketing effort. Then connect this to the airport and other city attractions as well as serve all city
areas that are in need of quality transit.

Again, BRT does not function as a local downtown circulator. And since BRT can cost more than commuter rail to implement, we'll probably want to consider it for long-haul transit service only to those areas where we can't develop commuter rail service, like out Northwest Expressway or Hefner Parkway. The airport will be best served in the future with a commuter rail line to the Intermodal Hub.

We are not using "all of the monies" to build the streetcar. We are using the funds provided by OKC voters in the MAPS3 vote specifically for a downtown streetcar. Nothing more and it damn well better not be any less. This streetcar does not negatively impact OKC transit in any way. It is the first step to building a better transit system for the OKC metropolitan region which will include "everyone else in the city that needs transit". To accomplish this goal required a decision to be made on the first step - the MAPS3 streetcar is that first step.

I believe the utility bunker belongs to Trigen and we're being told it would be very expensive and problematic to move - probably too expensive to justify. Any route is going to be less than perfect, but as I said, I walked this one and don't think we're asking too much of our citizens and visitors. And I don't think it will affect usage to any significant degree.

But what about everyone else in the city that needs transit.

That's what we're all working towards...a comprehensive regional transit system for all...just like DART in Dallas or Denver RTD or UTA in Salt Lake City. Here's ACOG's website with information about all of the planning processes and necessary technical studies that have been and are taking place to get us to that goal:

ACOG Regional Transit (http://www.acogok.org/regional-transit-dialogue)

We will, however, need to begin a pedestrian-oriented culture downtown. We will need crosswalks and people will need to learn to honor them. I think we need to give our citizens credit for being teachable, both about how to interact with pedestrians and how to read transit maps.

I meant all the monies in the transit budget. The MAX in KC, A Look at BRT: The Kansas City MAX | Metro Jacksonville (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-a-look-at-brt-the-kansas-city-max), is doing great and supports downtown KC. As for commuter rail, light rail, high speed rail.... we started those talks 30 years ago and are still talking. We need to quit listening to all the propaganda and do something now that helps all of the immediate transit needs. Article today stated that 80% our hurting financially or without a job. Maybe this could be related to our transit system and the need for them to get a ride to work. A tourist/downtown trolley ride is not going to help this.

I meant all the monies in the transit budget. The MAX in KC, A Look at BRT: The Kansas City MAX | Metro Jacksonville (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-a-look-at-brt-the-kansas-city-max), is doing great and supports downtown KC. As for commuter rail, light rail, high speed rail.... we started those talks 30 years ago and are still talking. We need to quit listening to all the propaganda and do something now that helps all of the immediate transit needs.

The MAPS3 Streetcar does not take any funds from the OKC transit budget. Period. Anyone stating the streetcar is redirecting funds away from current bus service is not being truthful and spreading propaganda. The additional operations and maintenance costs can and will be funded by current city taxes. This was very clearly and authoritatively stated by the OKC city manager.

I am continually surprised by a common assumption that streetcar advocates oppose fixing and improving our overall transit system. I hope the streetcar may even free up a bus or two to be used elsewhere in OKC.

The KC Max looks like a good service model for locations such as NW Expressway or others where rail is impractical and that type of service is part of the overall plan. In fact, DART used BRT from locations like Plano to downtown Dallas before the DART LRT line was built out that far.

MAPS transit budget. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Maintenance ?, operation ?, tax increases ?, subsidies ?, etc ?, etc ?, Thats a whole other unknown.

okcboy, I too think we need to improve our entire city's transit system. But the budget to do that was not provided in MAPS. The streetcar is going to do what it was proposed to do, link people to destinations throughout downtown, but it will also provide a new transit experience that could be greatly helpful in getting our citizens to support a more broad transit initiative. They haven't been supportive of transit -- with the exception of their vote for the streetcar. Hopefully we can leverage this to provide a permanent funding mechanism for mass transit in OKC with a successful deployment of the streetcar system.

Maintenance ?, operation ?, tax increases ?, subsidies ?, etc ?, etc ?, Thats a whole other unknown.

No increase in taxes are needed to fund operations and maintenance of the streetcar according to city staff. Certainly legitimate issues that should be addressed and have been throughout the planning process numerous times.

Subsidies? Every form of transportation in the United States is subsidized - including personal automobiles and city busses.

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

The people of this city voted for it and we're building it.

I'm personally glad that it has stirred passion, debate, analysis and further wishful thinking. Get in line and support another vote that has a bigger, comprehensive, and sustained funding source for a metro-wide solution.

The planning for such is underway.

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

Well, so we should just give the money back to the convention center? Why not have a good functioning downtown system and then hook it onto a better bus system? Why all or nothing? The favored streetcar route goes by the bus transfer center. Why not build on this instead of scrapping it? Should we all just take our marbles and go home? Do you really think you will gain favor with the voters -- who voted for the streetcar -- by scrapping it and asking them to support other transit? That makes no sense.

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

Legitimate problem for which you are reaching for the wrong solution. Of course it is your choice to support the first step to reaching our shared goal of improving transit in OKC - or not. The unfortunate thing is transit investment opponents will use every opportunity or sign of division among transit advocates to undermine efforts to improve it.

Advertising on trains, advertising at stops, potential mixed use revenue associated with the streetcar barn, ticket fees, possible sale of naming rights/sponsorship. These are all potential sources of revenue generation for a streetcar. There are probably some others I'm not thinking of. Then lets look at other potential sources. Would you be more likely to book a convention in a city that has a streetcar that goes to restaurants and hotels around the downtown area? I would. In fact, I don't visit cities without good mass transit in the downtown or near my hotel, because I don't want to drive a car when I go to a strange city. So, we might get more or bigger conventions in OKC with a new convention center AND modern, quiet, handicap accessible mass transit near the convention center. Then there's transit-oriented development, which we know will occur, as another source of increase in city revenues. The OKC Modern gallery specifically stated that they chose to locate on Broadway because of the planned streetcar route and several other businesses stated the same. Now let's look at MAPS projects as a whole. None of them were designed to carry their own weight financially. MAPS was initiated because Mayor Norick understood that OKC's observable amenities and perceived quality of life were inadequate. He came up with a plan I still consider breathtaking: to build projects that were not self-supporting, but that would make the lives of the people in OKC a little more enjoyable, make our leisure time a little more special, make our city appealing to outsiders and hopefully stop the brain and talent drain that was occurring with our young adults. He succeeded beyond our wildest dreams. And, although none of these projects was self-supporting, they generated billions of dollars in economic development for the city. MAPS is responsible for the Devon Tower, for Deep Deuce, Midtown, businesses on Broadway, population increases higher than average and higher than expected, the Thunder (last but in no way the least). Our young people are staying in Oklahoma City in increasing numbers. People are actually willing to move here from other states - even California and other desirable locations. There's something very appealing about having a city we can be proud of - that we can enjoy showing off to our visitors, that makes people willing to move here (probably for the first time in our recent history - I was dragged here kicking and screaming 30 years ago myself). Parks and civic centers and ballparks and streetcars may not be part of most people's everyday lives, but they make our days off that much more special. And, almost by accident, they make the city money.

I'd like to point out that we just had our 83rd public meeting on all of these issues. This is a downtown "circulator". Not a linear cross-city transit line.

We need to go to a grid on our bus system, consolidate the bus transfer center to the intermodal hub for long distance spoke overlay, build BRT up NW Expressway/Yukon, and commuter rail to the suburbs. OKC has a long way to go for making up lost time. Bickering over this majority voter mandated $130 million allocation is silly when we need somewhere between 1 Billion and 1.6 Billion to do it right.... Plus a dedicated operating funds source.

I'd like to point out that we just had our 83rd public meeting on all of these issues. This is a downtown "circulator". Not a linear cross-city transit line.

We need to go to a grid on our bus system, consolidate the bus transfer center to the intermodal hub for long distance spoke overlay, build BRT up NW Expressway/Yukon, and commuter rail to the suburbs. OKC has a long way to go for making up lost time. Bickering over this majority voter mandated $130 million allocation is silly when we need somewhere between 1 Billion and 1.6 Billion to do it right.... Plus a dedicated operating funds source.

okcboy and others,

I think you would have a very difficult time finding a streetcar advocate who did not want to improve our bus system also. That is something we agree with you wholeheartedly. The next step after getting the MAPS3 streetcar plan finalized and construction started is to concentrate on getting a long needed regional transit authority established followed by a dedicated funding source for all the modes outlined by UP.

Could be a combo of both. I just know it seems the tide is changing with city leaders, the council, AA, and Bricktown. Sounds like the only ones for it is Midtown. However, We definitely don't want the bus transfer center in the middle of the entertainment/tourist area. It was moved for a reason.

Could be a combo of both. I just know it seems the tide is changing with city leaders, the council, AA, and Bricktown. Sounds like the only ones for it is Midtown. However, We definitely don't want the bus transfer center in the middle of the entertainment/tourist area. It was moved for a reason.

Do you represent a downtown enterprise? I cannot imagine you not wanting streetcar service in your area if you cater to tourists.

I'm a part of some concerned downtown stakeholders. Its looks good in theory. The devil is in the details. The populous voted for the MAPS
Brand and the success we have had with it. They also gave the right for the council to manipulate or cancel any project they feel needs to be changed
if in its in the best interest of the city with five votes. So yes they voted for transit, but also voted the confidence in the council to make changes as needed.

Could be a combo of both. I just know it seems the tide is changing with city leaders, the council, AA, and Bricktown. Sounds like the only ones for it is Midtown. However, We definitely don't want the bus transfer center in the middle of the entertainment/tourist area. It was moved for a reason.

Maybe I guess. From everything I have seen and heard, the only ones really opposed to the streetcar are worried about keeping parking lots full or have some other vested interest in maintaining the status quo. It's too bad there sometimes seems to be a concerted effort to stall or prevent progress in OKC for the personal gain of a few. But that is not unique to OKC. The best thing is, the voters have spoken, funds are being collected now, plans are well in progress, and in a few years, OKC will join other forward thinking cities in the US with a new option for people to get around downtown.

I understand all points. Just too many immediate transit needs and too many questions and unknowns out there to support a streetcar.

So you don't support the streetcar...but you do support BRT. Since the FGS System Plan calls for BRT to connect to the Intermodal Hub, then I assume you support acquisition and redevelopment of Santa Fe Station. Is that correct?

So, here's some information that should reassure you.

Streetcars do NOT require a dedicated lane. They share a lane with cars. Streetcars are quieter than buses. They don't have fumes. Streetcars in many cities have increased transit ridership over buses manyfold, which brings customers into Bricktown. People will want to park in the many parking lots behind Bricktown so they can ride the streetcar to amenities rather than having to look for a parking space near their destination. That will increase the likelihood that they eat their meal in Bricktown or use Bricktown amenities. It will decrease congestion of cars roaming Bricktown looking for an open parking space. I know about that because I used to be one of those roamers, before I moved close enough to walk. People will want to stay at the hotels in Bricktown because they will have access to transit that will get them around downtown. That will make them more likely to dine and/or shop in Bricktown.

So you don't support the streetcar...but you do support BRT. Since the FGS System Plan calls for BRT to connect to the Intermodal Hub, then I assume you support acquisition and redevelopment of Santa Fe Station. Is that correct?

Setting the conditions for OKC to have an intermodal hub like other cities is something I think is often overlooked when people discuss MAPS3. The streetcar is going to be great, but the getting the hub facility established will be another great step forward for central OK. The MAPS3 Streetcar and Transit project may turn out to be the most transformative part of the entire slate.

The Hub selection is too small IMO. I'm for acquisition for the right reasons. This is a take for control ED case. There is no solidified use. It is already being used as a train depot with a lease in place and the owners are willing to partner with the city on any furture needs if neccessary. I believe in private property rights and justified takes. Not ones based on studies, dreams, and no money (for future modes). The hub is not needed for the streetcar and the other modes we have been discussing for over 30 years and still discussing. We have been turned down twice now for tiger grants and the political future for rail looks very grim.

Were the city council to make any significant changes in how they allocate funds for MAPS, that would be the end of MAPS as we know it. People would not vote for money for an RTD or improved transit of any sort either, sadly, because all of a sudden, voters would feel they couldn't trust the city council to honor their wishes. I've been one of the biggest MAPS supporters around, I campaigned hard for MAPS for the Chesapeake Arena and MAPS 3, but I would have to vote against any further use of tax funds. Why should we give money to a city council if we cannot trust them to use it in the way we were told they would? Most of us who support the streetcar also support improving the bus system and developing commuter rail. It would be a very sad day for Oklahoma City if we couldn't get voters to pass taxes to improve transit, or to build anything new once MAPS 3 is over.

I have been told by some influential people that this is the last as well because of this type of thinking. The citizens gave the city council the confidence to make
changes as needed and that should be respected and the citizens should support that.

I hope this is not too much to post, Steve. But I don't know if people always click on the links, and this information is close to the bottom of your article. People with ADD may never get there. So, forgive me Steve if I over quote. I am including the link.

So, from a very interesting article by Steve Lackmeyer, which merits reading in its entirety, we find this quote:

A Streetcar to the Future? | News OK (http://newsok.com/a-streetcar-to-the-future/article/3866940)

At some point, there seems to be a disconnect. Because if the truth is told, the young professionals seeking to live, work and play downtown are overwhelmingly pro-streetcar. And the students set to move downtown with the OCU law school also are reported by none other than Leslie Batchelor, attorney for the Urban Renewal Authority, as being very excited about having a streetcar pass their new campus at the old Central High at NW 7 and Robinson.
So the question is, are we building a city for those who are in their 40s (like me) to people in their 70s (like Nichols) and those in between (most of those on the Automobile Alley Association board)?
Or are we building a city for the young professionals, students and young families bringing life to downtown via its shops and restaurants, festivals (H&8th), outdoor movies and concerts at the Myriad Gardens and recreation along the Oklahoma River?
It’s an awkward question to ask, because quite frankly, it’s that first group that has really given downtown a boost via generous investment. But without that second group, the investment takes no life.

I have been told by some influential people that this is the last as well because of this type of thinking. The citizens gave the city council the confidence to make
changes as needed and that should be respected and the citizens should support that.

Just as you don't support ED, even though it is a legal process, I do not support the city council's right to do anything but make minor changes to what we the voters chose. Sometimes things that are important to us give us a different perspective from those to whom it's not important. If a city councilman doesn't care about MAPS, doesn't care about what the citizens wanted when they voted, then perhaps they feel justified changing things to suit their personal wishes. That reminds me more of a dictatorship than a democracy though. I have no legal recourse if they choose to become dictatorial, but I can campaign against them and I can choose to vote against them or their ballot items.

The Hub Selection is too small IMO. I'm for acquisition for the right reasons. This is a take for control ED case. There is no solidified use. It is already being used as a train depot with a lease in place and the owners are willing to partner with the city on any furture needs if neccessary. I believe in private property rights and justified takes. Not ones based on studies, dreams, and no money (for future modes). The hub is not needed for the streetcar and the other modes we have been discussing for over 30 years and still discussing. We have been turned down twice now for tiger grants and the political future for rail looks very grim.

I certainly do not think we are 30 years away from having commuter rail service in OKC. Just because the city's TIGER application was turned down before we had shown the political will to take effective steps to improving transit does not mean that is a permanent situation. In fact, I would argue OKC is far more likely to be approved once we have demonstrated the intent and some action. Designating and acquiring the Santa Fe Depot as the transit hub for central OK is an integral part of improving transit. It is silly to maintain the norm of being reactive when the opportunity to proactively work toward improving all modes of transit is right in front of us. Of course whomever owns the station should be compensated at market rates - I would say it is an example of OKC's past short sightedness it was ever allowed to fall into disrepair and private ownership once the Sante Fe RR no longer wanted it.

The future of passenger rail transport is anything but grim - all over the United States there are real efforts underway to improve service and reestablish service as required. North Carolina is increasing its DOT run rail service frequency, Amtrak Virginia is wildy successful, the rail service radiating from Chicago is rapidly improving as speed and frequemcy increases. All it takes is for people to get away from OKC to realize how far behind we are regarding transportation. Unfortunately a few have profited obscenely while the city and state fell behind and they are going to hold on for dear life and squeeze every penny out they can. It has a long way to go but the attitude of the next generation of voters appears to be very different from those that have kept Sen Inhofe and others in office. The pure folly of subsidizing and facilitating the dependence of Americans on the automobile is becoming more clear. People are waking up and realizing the foolishness of destroying a formerly robust mode of transportation.

Its just not the time. More immediate concerns need to be addressed. Although not as "cool", if done right the people downtown could use BRT to accomplish
the same goals as a streetcar would provide. Downtown is snowballing and doesn't need a streetcar for furture investment. We have been doing that work by our bootstraps for the past 25 years and all the hard work is paying off. We will continue to prosper and develop at a rapid rate in spite.

I have been told by some influential people that this is the last as well because of this type of thinking. The citizens gave the city council the confidence to make changes as needed and that should be respected and the citizens should support that.

That last sentence is pure male bovine feces and anyone with a brain understands that. Of course one can make the purely legal case the voters only approved a penny sales tax. But the practical truth is the voters approved that tax for very specific reasons. Most people aren't crazy over every MAPS3 project but they accept them so they can get something they do value. Perfect example of give and take and has benefitted OKC in ways no one could have imagined when the first MAPS was approved.

Just as you don't support ED, even though it is a legal process, I do not support the city council's right to do anything but make minor changes to what we the voters chose. Sometimes things that are important to us give us a different perspective from those to whom it's not important. If a city councilman doesn't care about MAPS, doesn't care about what the citizens wanted when they voted, then perhaps they feel justified changing things to suit their personal wishes. That reminds me more of a dictatorship than a democracy though. I have no legal recourse if they choose to become dictatorial, but I can campaign against them and I can choose to vote against them or their ballot items.

When you voted for MAPS you gave them that right. Now your going against something you voted for. Thats how the ballot was written.

When you voted for MAPS you gave them that right. Now your going against something you voted for. Thats how the ballot was written.

I've heard that scare tactic before. Woe be unto the politician who really thinks that will fly. Fortunately, the vast majority of the city council, and certainly Mayor Cornett, understand this practical fact.

As Hutch said, BRT is designed for longer distance travel. It requires its own lane, and I don't think you want to give a lane up in Bricktown or spend the money to build another lane just for buses on I-40 or the Broadway extension. BRT in Bricktown and downtown would simply end up being more modern looking trollies, with equally dismal ridership, no doubt. The voters didn't vote for a streetcar for economic development. They voted for it as transit. Downtown has become a kind of playground for its citizens and visitors. When I voted for a streetcar, I voted for a means to travel around Bricktown, downtown and up to Midtown so people didn't have to worry about driving in downtown traffic, so they could park for the day or evening and relax and enjoy moving between amenities without needing a car. Bricktown MAY have developed and prospered without the streetcar, but the main reason you are prospering is MAPS. Bricktown without a canal, a ballpark or a nearby arena would not be anything like it is today. Deep Deuce and its population which supports Bricktown would not be there if not for MAPS. The merchants of Bricktown owe the taxpayers for their support, via MAPS, as much as anything when crediting "work by our bootstraps". What is MAPS if not a city pulling itself up by its bootstraps? The merchants of Bricktown should in turn support the citizens of Oklahoma City and their expressed desire for a streetcar, one of the most popular of the MAPS projects per voter polls.

I've heard that scare tactic before. Woe be unto the politician who really thinks that will fly. Fortunately, the vast majority of the city council, and certainly Mayor Cornett, understand this practical fact.

The reality is that is was written as such. Ask your councilman or Steve. The council has the ultimate right to change, modify, or abolish, with 5 votes on any Tuesday. Thats the way it was presented to the people. Sure it would take political courage but they have that power and we gave it to them by voting yes.

And you think that's right, that it's OK? That the voters' will doesn't matter? Legal is semantics. Ethical is doing what's right.

As Hutch said, BRT is designed for longer distance travel. It requires its own lane, and I don't think you want to give a lane up in Bricktown or spend the money to build another lane just for buses on I-40 or the Broadway extension. BRT in Bricktown and downtown would simply end up being more modern looking trollies, with equally dismal ridership, no doubt. The voters didn't vote for a streetcar for economic development. They voted for it as transit. Downtown has become a kind of playground for its citizens and visitors. When I voted for a streetcar, I voted for a means to travel around Bricktown, downtown and up to Midtown so people didn't have to worry about driving in downtown traffic, so they could park for the day or evening and relax and enjoy moving between amenities without needing a car. Bricktown MAY have developed and prospered without the streetcar, but the main reason you are prospering is MAPS. Bricktown without a canal, a ballpark or a nearby arena would not be anything like it is today. Deep Deuce and its population which supports Bricktown would not be there if not for MAPS. The merchants of Bricktown owe the taxpayers for their support, via MAPS, as much as anything when crediting "work by our bootstraps". What is MAPS if not a city pulling itself up by its bootstraps? The merchants of Bricktown should in turn support the citizens of Oklahoma City and their expressed desire for a streetcar, one of the most popular of the MAPS projects per voter polls.

Bricktown was actually a major catalyst in getting MAPS 1 to pass. Jim Brewer raised $50k in 3 days to give the chamber start up monies for the yes campaign because they didn't have the immediate funds. At the time, the public could see hope to come downtown because of what Bricktown was doing. MAPS 1 passing came because of this. Bricktown is very appreciative of the public support but has also done a lot by the bootstraps way before MAPS 1 and to this day. Unless you are in the trenches daily its hard to see. The citizens have been repaid many times over on the investment in the canal that was actually paid by the interest made on the total MAPS monies received. So basically we got a free canal and 30% of MAPS 1 money came from people who live outside the city limits. This is the genius in the MAPS program.

And you think that's right, that it's OK? That the voters' will doesn't matter? Legal is semantics. Ethical is doing what's right.

No not really ok, but we told them they can.

Amen Sid.

No not really ok, but we told them they can.

That quite simply will not happen.

The reality is that is was written as such. Ask your councilman or Steve. The council has the ultimate right to change, modify, or abolish, with 5 votes on any Tuesday. Thats the way it was presented to the people. Sure it would take political courage but they have that power and we gave it to them by voting yes.

Political courage to break the public trust and kill MAPS? Interesting way to look at it. Political suicide not to mention pathological stupidity is more accurate I think. Where on earth did you get that KoolAid?

Sure there would be fringe elements that would cheer that sort of lunacy on, but the vast majority of Oklahoma City citizens are fairly happy with what MAPS has accomplished even considering a few bumps along the way. I cannot imagine anyone being so deranged as to really think that would be good for Oklahoma City. I know exactly what the resolution says and while you are technically correct, it would be a selfish act of someone with self serving motivations and a very narrow view or self interest to suggest or support such an action.

I think MAPS IV is likely to be written a bit differently from III. But anyone who wanted or supported MAPS III to get a convention center had better realize it was other projects, namely the streetcar and river improvements, that were far more popular and carried the vote. I was not particularly enamored of the fairgrounds building in MAPS 3, but I had enough sense to not cut off my nose to spite my face. By doing so, the streetcar I am most excited about was approved and funded.

(And I have had conversations with my councilman and understand exactly where he stands.)

Political courage to break the public trust and kill MAPS? Interesting way to look at it. Political suicide not to mention pathological stupidity. Sure there would be fringe elements that would cheer that sort of lunacy on, but the vast majority of Oklahoma City citizens are fairly happy with what MAPS has accomplished even considering a few bumps along the way. Where on earth did you get that KoolAid? I cannot imagine anyone being so deranged as to really think that would be good for Oklahoma City. I know exactly what the resolution says and while you are technically correct, it would be a selfish act of someone with self serving motivations and a very narrow view or self interest to suggest or support such an action.

Exactly. Just because someone has the gun and the bullet to commit political suicide does not mean the entire council will pick up the gun and take their turns. The fact this is even being discussed is comical.

That quite simply will not happen.

Of course it won't. But you can be sure that those who own parking lots and old train stations and who really could care less about transit will do everything they can to keep the rail revolution they fear from arriving. They view the world through the windshield of an automobile and trying to reason with them is an effort in futility. So don't waste too much of your valuable breath trying to convince them otherwise.

Bricktown was actually a major catalyst in getting MAPS 1 to pass. Jim Brewer raised $50k in 3 days to give the chamber start up monies for the yes campaign because they didn't have the immediate funds. At the time, the public could see hope to come downtown because of what Bricktown was doing. MAPS 1 passing came because of this. Bricktown is very appreciative of the public support but has also done a lot by the bootstraps way before MAPS 1 and to this day. Unless you are in the trenches daily its hard to see. The citizens have been repaid many times over on the investment in the canal that was actually paid by the interest made on the total MAPS monies received. So basically we got a free canal and 30% of MAPS 1 money came from people who live outside the city limits. This is the genius in the MAPS program.

Good points in this. I think Mr Brewer had the vision and smarts to get behind MAPS I and for that he deserves credit. I also am fairly sure that initial investment he made has been mulitplied many times since then.

Of course "The citizens have been repaid many times over on the investment in the canal". But so have the business owners who took the initial risks in Bricktown (good for them, I am glad) as well as those who have squatted on developable land but keep surface parking lots on them. But this streetcar and MAPS isn't just about Bricktown. It could be argued Bricktown is getting another free amenity courtesy of the taxpayers that will further increase the return on private investment in Bricktown. That is part of the deal with MAPS - and the reason for its overall success. It has been a win - win proposition and will continue to be as long as selfish interests can be kept at bay.

Really Sid? Here are a few possible scenarios off the top of my head.

Devon employee lives in Edmond, tired of fighting Broadway Extension drive every day (even after the 235/44 interchange is complete), decides to start riding the commuter rail system (the one in the FGS that runs from Edmond to OKC to Norman and from Yukonor Mustang to OKC to MWC to TAFB), train stops at Santa Fe hub, Devon employee walks outside, hops on streetcar for the proverbial last mile to Devon Energy Center.

Another easy one:

OU student gets accepted to OCU Law, doesn't want to move from Norman and doesn't want to drive to OKC, rides commuter line from Norman to tranist hub, hops on streetcar for last mile to OCU Law on Robinson.

Another:

Elderly person that lives in MWC wants to be an OKC Ambassador but can no longer drive, they ride commuter line to transit hub, hop on streetcar to wherever their Ambassador duties require them to be. Or maybe they have a medical appointment downtown in a few years, they ride the commuter line to transit hub, then take a future streetcar to OU HSC or VAMC.

Another:

Resident of NE OKC has a job downtown, can't afford a car, the catch the Adventure Line to transit hub or maybe the bus to the current transit center, then jumps on streetcar to wherever they need to be along the circulator.

Another:

Family visiting OKC arrives at WRWA, takes future commuter line to transit hub, jumps on streetcar to Bricktown, Midtown, or downtown hotel, then uses it to visit other attractions in OKC. The only people not thrilled with this are car rental agencies but they will be ok.

These possiblities can go on forever. It is not terribly difficult to envision how the streetcar will function as a circulator providing the last mile for transit riders. It does require vision and looking past the immediate present. I think it is preferable to have the last mile in place, serving people that can use it now, rather than building other modes of transportation that dumps them off in downtown with no means of getting them that last mile. You have to start somewhere and it makes perfect sense to lay a foundation before building other systems.

Matter of opinion and I understand where you are coming from. After establishing the foundation for OKC's streetcar with MAPS funds, you and I are probably in near complete agreement of how to expand the system.

Did you not catch the part about being used by people now? With all the planned residential developments in Midtown, AA, Bricktown, and probably a few no one knows about now, it will be used. It is a viable mode of transit even if none of those hypothetical scenarios come to pass. (And not all of them are hypothetical - can a resident of NE OKC not catch a bus to the transit center today? Or anywhere else the bus system serves now?) The Zeta route provides every single bus rider that goes to the transit center the last mile service in downtown. I left this out because I thought it was obvious.

Then there is the high likelihood of extensive residential development west of the Central/Union Park. Maybe not exactly like Core to Shore but I seriously doubt that area will remain in its current state very long. The proposal to run the streetcar into that area in MAPS3 Phase II does a couple things - encourages that development to happen sooner and provides a means of transit upon move in.

Additionally, I am pretty sure COTPA will adjust the bus service to take full advantage of the streetcar once it is operational. I am afraid you are focused on a single tree and completely lost sight of the forest.

Sid, this route passes next to the City Bus Transfer center AND Santa Fe station.

All buses except the 23rd street bus will transfer to the streetcar at the bus station and any points the lines will cross.

You will also be able to use the train at the Santa fe Station that runs today to Ft. Worth. Assuming, the streetcar has early morning/late evening runs. Also, the possibility exists for a second daily trip to Ft. Worth, which would also enhance connections to the streetcar.

So to answer your question, this still is the last mile for just about every bus route in the metro, and also the Amtrak service we have.

Most hotels downtown have free shuttles to the airport, so this could also be considered the last mile for those too. Also, I view taxi cabs as a form of public transit, and those can be used to get downtown, where you can use the streetcar to access a broader range of destinations without hiring a cab to take you up the street to Midtown or down the street to Bricktown.

You also will have ridership from the people who do drive downtown, this will be able to serve as a last mile for those individuals, such as myself. I can park in bricktown, have dinner, ride to Midtown for drinks, ride back, and drive home. Or any other possibility of scenarios I might have. All while parking my vehicle once for the entire night.

As Pete would say, I predict this will be a smash success.

Right now the streetcar route as planned will go to the bus transit center, which is the best connection for people traveling to downtown via bus. The bus system is in a state of flux, clearly. It would be unwise to completely adapt a streetcar route to existing bus routes when they will likely change. Ultimately, the transit hub will be the Santa Fe Station and we will have interaction of bus, commuter rail and streetcar. That is when the streetcar will provide a multimodal last mile. Until then, it's a few different last miles, as catch22 outlined.

We have to take a longer view of transit. Again, we need an RTD and will need a dedicated funding source to completely transform our transit system. MAPS is not the mechanism to do this. Until then, the streetcar will allow residents, visitors, downtown workers, citizens who want to spend all or part of a day enjoying downtown amenities a means to move quickly and easily between Bricktown and Midtown and everywhere in between. CaptDave outlined a few possible scenarios for this. In addition, downtown is for everyone. It's amenities are used by people of every socioeconomic group. There is a lot of low cost entertainment, and I see great diversity in people enjoying their free time downtown. The streetcar will make that easier for everyone, including people who come downtown via the bus transfer center. New bus routes can adapt to the streetcar to make it even more functional. We need to work together as a united group to improve all transit, but not be focused only on the short term.

I honestly don't know how the single densest downtown adjacent neighborhood doesn't get service. Mass transit lives and dies with density. Any plan that doesn't go within 1 block of the intersection of NE2 and Walnut is going to have a problem generating ridership.

I honestly don't know how the single densest downtown adjacent neighborhood doesn't get service. Mass transit lives and dies with density. Any plan that doesn't go within 1 block of the intersection of NE2 and Walnut is going to have a problem generating ridership.

I bet an extension to OU HSC and VAMC will go past that exact location. If we had a billion dollars for the first phase I am certain the streetcar would hit that intersection. But we don't and the reality is that will have to come later.

You're in luck because what was old is new again.

http://www.railpictures.net/images/d1/8/6/3/3863.1239657587.jpg

Great photo of the New Mexico Rail Runner. This is precisely the type of commuter rail application that we will be considering for Oklahoma City. The MPXpress locomotive is manufactured by Idaho-based MotivePower (http://www.motivepower-wabtec.com/locomotives/commuter/mpxpress.php) and has been the choice for nearly all of the commuter rail systems that have come on line in the last decade. The bi-level coach cars are manufactured by Bombardier (http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/commuter-and-regional-trains/double-deck-coaches.html) and have also been the preferred choice for most new systems.

Here's a couple more more photos showing the Salt Lake City Frontrunner, New Mexico Rail Runner and Minneapolis NorthStar:

4208 4210 4212

I've not really counted the 4th & Hudson connection simply because it is a one way couplet. So in order to go east or south you've still got to leave the transit center and walk two blocks east.

Please consider this:

Bus riders arrive at bus transfer center, jump on streetcar, ride to 4th and Robinson, hop off, catch next streetcar southbound on Robinson, head to their destinations to the south and/or east. Just a simple transfer or short walk. Some people may even choose to ride the entire loop if they have time. People will adjust their behavior and use of the streetcar to whatever suits them best.

I have thought about the number of ways I would use the streetcar in various scenarios. The Zeta route is unlike what I personally envisioned when I first heard about the streetcar, but it works very well. I think I am being pretty reasonable in these assessments and most people are likely to use the streetcar in a similar manner according to their specific needs.