Well that plan looks good.

Thanks Hutch - looking at the pictures it appeared the freight trains went down the middle since there was not any passenger platforms there. Like Watson410, I wish this could get under construction today.

Can't wait to see this thing built. My dad is in his 60's now and everything is going crazy in OKC. If this is long term development, I hope it's done before I'm in my 60's!


looking at the pictures it appeared the freight trains went down the middle since there was not any passenger platforms there.

They do and still will. Have you been inside Santa Fe Station before Kerry? There's an old tunnel that accesses the other side of the railroad viaduct. It is this tunnel that would be reopened to connect to passenger facilities and commuter rail to other destinations besides Edmond and Norman--which makes sense because I believe the majority of commuters would be departing/arriving to/from those major suburbs more than the others.

Also if high speed rail ever makes its appearance in OKC, then, maybe then, all commuter rail will switch to the west side of the viaduct followed by freight in the middle and then those access stations for high speed rail on the east side. The setup with the tunnel will be very nice indeed. This proposed station will create less of a barrier too, between Bricktown and downtown.

When I lived in OKC the station wasn't open to anyone. I am aware of the tunnel under the tracks and have posted several pictures of them myself over the years. I do know that Union Pacific will not allow any passengers to use Union Station (OKC might own the station but UP owns the rails). They do not want the public anywhere near their freight trains. I am sure Santa Fe doesn't have these concerns or we would have heard about it by now - plus Amtrak already uses the station.

Yes, I know that. I've departed to Fort Worth from there...

Don't forget- the Maps 3 Transit Subcommittee meets today at 3:30 in the Cox CC, Room 8. Tour of Santa-Fe station to occur at the end of the meeting.

I might be a little late, but I'll start walking over there now. Hopefully there will be others who come by/care? :-P

We moved to recommend acquisition of Santa-Fe yesterday afternoon.

UP - this is great news. All of the land for station platforms is owned by the Santa Fe railroad (including the now closed underground tunnel). Have they been approached yet with the idea that all of this is going to be built on their right-of-way. If so, has there been any opposition from them. I know Union Pacific in the recent past has said no way. Do you get the vibe that Santa Fe is much more accommodating?

We've been told that the BNSF is quite a bit more accomodating than the UP, but they have not been approached yet.

Actually, Jacobs did meet with BNSF as part of the Hub Study. BNSF have indicated that their primary concern is that there be two dedicated freight tracks through the facility and this is provided for in the study recommendations. More specific details such as timetable pathing, crossing movements and need for second or third tracks in other areas along the BNSF line would be addressed in ACOG’s upcoming Regional Rail Alternatives Analysis.

Thanks Tier2City. That is great to hear. Now we just need to urbanize the entire viaduct like this:

http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x378/KerryinJax/london1.jpg

Kerry, I agree...but EKG is difficult to work with, there is not enough room I think to urbanize it, and space isn't enough of an issue to make that reasonable anyway. I myself would rather tackle a parking lot a block away than a grass strip up against the viaduct...but you have a point that it would definitely improve the environment tremendously.


Actually, Jacobs did meet with BNSF as part of the Hub Study. BNSF have indicated that their primary concern is that there be two dedicated freight tracks through the facility and this is provided for in the study recommendations. More specific details such as timetable pathing, crossing movements and need for second or third tracks in other areas along the BNSF line would be addressed in ACOG’s upcoming Regional Rail Alternatives Analysis.

Right, and we also saw how the current capacity up there is sufficient but it isn't until capacity is expanded for commuter and Amtrak that more tracks are necessary. It looks like a good deal. I remember a few months ago there were some concerns voiced about whether Santa Fe Depot could handle the traffic of a complete transit system, but it looks like it will do just fine.

Kerry, I agree...but EKG is difficult to work with, there is not enough room I think to urbanize it, and space isn't enough of an issue to make that reasonable anyway. I myself would rather tackle a parking lot a block away than a grass strip up against the viaduct...but you have a point that it would definitely improve the environment tremendously.

EKG is only one side. The other side is Bricktown and there is plenty of room on that side. It would make some really cool urban space.

Oklahoma City Urban Renewal approves development contract for MidTown housing
The Oklahoma City Urban Renewal Authority approved a redevelopment agreement with Gary Brooks for construction of a $28.2 million, 250-unit complex on the former site of Mercy Hospital in MidTown.

BY STEVE LACKMEYER Slackmeyer@opubco.com
Published: August 11, 2011

"and redesigning the corner at NW 13 and Dewey to allow for easier right turns for downtown's future streetcar system."

Read more:
http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-urban-renewal-approves-development-contract-for-midtown-housing/article/3593401?custom_click=headlines_widget


This is very helpful. The concerns raised by Committee Members are seemingly being addressed.

The next Maps 3 Transit Meeting is this coming Wednesday, August 24th, at 420 Main on the 10th floor.

Slated on the agenda is general updates on all aspects of the streetcar project including the latest estimated time table.

Urban ..... can you give us the (8/22/2011) up to date version of the future streetcar route??

Urban ..... can you give us the (8/22/2011) up to date version of the future streetcar route??

The best place to look at the current route that has gone before the City Council is here on Steve's blog-

http://blog.newsok.com/okccentral/2011/07/15/could-this-be-the-beginning-of-okcs-new-streetcar-system/

To answer you as to where we are today. The map on the blog is not the final route, nor does it depict "Phase 2" of the Maps 3 Transit Subcommittee. It does however define what is Phase 1, the "Bricktown to Midtown" streetcar transit spine on which Environment Analysis and Engineering is about to commence.

Main streets to note:

North on Robinson
West on 11th
North on Dewey
East on 13th
South on Broadway

Sheridan plays a key role

Decisions as to whether the "return" is Reno or the OKC Boulevard has yet to be determined as we await data on the bridge and alternatives costs.


Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info.

Now that the site study is approved and we have a location, budget, timeline, and renderings...How does all of this compare to other hub facilities that have been developed around the country in the last ten years?

Will $20 million get the streetcar all the way to the Capitol?

I don't know if this is what you were alluding to in you're post but I for one would like to see the additional $30 Million that was set aside for the substation relocation in conjunction with the Convention center to be applied to expanding on the Street Car system. This along with the additional matching that it would then qualify us for from the Gov't and we would be way ahead with a system that was viable and contributes to the way people in the core move about!

Yes, that is what I was alluding to. There have been lots of statements by council members that they would like to get 2 or 3 more miles in the initial streetcar phase. $20 million would do that. I figure $10 million ought to cover the expense for covering up the substation.

Urban, betts or anyone else involved with the Streetcars:

It was mentioned by the Consultant and Councilman Ryan at this last Council meeting that contingency amounts are already built into each of the MAPS 3 budgets. As far as I know, this is the first mention of this. What contingency amount is built into the Streetcar budget? Is it at least the 8% avg that long term projects like this typically exceed?

Yes, that is what I was alluding to. There have been lots of statements by council members that they would like to get 2 or 3 more miles in the initial streetcar phase. $20 million would do that. I figure $10 million ought to cover the expense for covering up the substation.

Easily. C.M. Couch stated that they thought they could screen the substation (perhaps with a stacked stone) for $300 to $400K. The total cost of doing that along with the transmission lines, is thought to be $5 million. He pointed out that the $5 million shouldn't be entirely on the City and/or MAPS but should be shared with OG&E. He went on to say whatever split would have to be negotiated.

Question;

Which does downtown Oklahoma City see first?.............(A) The maps3 streetcar up and running it's downtown route?....... OR..........(B) The NEXT 35+ story downtown high rise tower under construction?

I'd take option B if you lowered the floors to 35. Otherwise, I'll take A.

Done! Good Choice!

Question;

Which does downtown Oklahoma City see first?.............(A) The maps3 streetcar up and running it's downtown route?....... OR..........(B) The NEXT 35+ story downtown high rise tower under construction?

We are what, at least 4 years from the first passenger? I am going with B. Once they start laying track I think you will be amazed at how much construction activity takes off along the route.

I personally think that we'll see A before we see B. I think we'll see a few highrises before the streetcar is up and running it's downtown route but I doubt it'll be quite 35 stories. Hopefully that's just me being a Debbie Downer and we'll see 1,2, or even 3 highrises 35+ stories between now and then.

I personally think that we'll see A before we see B. I think we'll see a few highrises before the streetcar is up and running it's downtown route but I doubt it'll be quite 35 stories. Hopefully that's just me being a Debbie Downer and we'll see 1,2, or even 3 highrises 35+ stories between now and then.

A decent residential tower will hit 35 stories and a convention hotel will probably hit that number as well. Class A vacancy is pretty tight and Sandridge already has plans (at least so we think) for an additional tower.

^^That is true. Silly me, didn't consider the stuff we already knew or pretty much know but can still be put in that speculative category. Lol so I guess my opinion has been completely changed. That's twice tonight JTF, that you have brought something to my attention that I seemed to have forgotten. Lol

^^That is true. Silly me, didn't consider the stuff we already knew or pretty much know but can still be put in that speculative category. Lol so I guess my opinion has been completely changed. That's twice tonight JTF, that you have brought something to my attention that I seemed to have forgotten. Lol

OKC has a lot going on - you can't be expected to remember everything.

so why is a transportation hub or commuter rail well mostly commuter rail even in this project wouldn't it be more important to improve the bus system

The bus system is broken though.

A decent residential tower will hit 35 stories and a convention hotel will probably hit that number as well. Class A vacancy is pretty tight and Sandridge already has plans (at least so we think) for an additional tower.

Stop. If SR builds a tower in the next ten years it will be a huge shock. And a convention hotel will not be 35 stories, more like 20 max.

Stop. If SR builds a tower in the next ten years it will be a huge shock. And a convention hotel will not be 35 stories, more like 20 max.

Why do you say a convention hotel will max out at 20 stories? The new one in Austin is 50 according to the article posted earlier in the CC thread. If it was just 600 rooms it would take 35 stories at 20 rooms per floor (no rooms in the lobby, meachincal floors, resturaunt levels, convention space levels, etc). If it is 800 rooms who know how tall it would have to be. The footprint will have fit the existing street grid because they won't be doing any more super blocks.

if SR doesn't build a tower in the next 10 years it will be a suprise ..

So, today the OKC City Council was presented the ACOG/COTPA Intermodal Hub Study in which they accepted the finding and have subsequently approved moving forward with pursuing a Tiger Grant to supplement MAPS monies for the Hub. Effectively receiving the monies they are applying for would put the project into a Phase 1B scenario.

It is an application on the fast track due by October 31st with resulting award made before or at the end of this year. They think that the nature of the project is extremely eligible for Federal Funds without the normal strings attached.

Good to see these people busy attempting to leverage the committed local investment that is taking place in transit through MAPS 3.

Why do you say a convention hotel will max out at 20 stories? The new one in Austin is 50 according to the article posted earlier in the CC thread. If it was just 600 rooms it would take 35 stories at 20 rooms per floor (no rooms in the lobby, meachincal floors, resturaunt levels, convention space levels, etc). If it is 800 rooms who know how tall it would have to be. The footprint will have fit the existing street grid because they won't be doing any more super blocks.

I can tell you that CC hotels are usually big and blocky. The new one in Dallas is a great example, and it has 1,000 rooms. Or the really nice Hilton Americas in Houston is another great example.

if SR doesn't build a tower in the next 10 years it will be a suprise ..

Yeah and I would like a car made out of solid gold but that isn't going to happen no matter how much I pretend to expect it...

Noticed a good article today in regards to the modern streetcar in America. http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/Streetcar-builders-see-potential-in-North-American-market--27561


Streetcar builders see potential in North American market

By Julie Sneider, Assistant Editor

Energy efficient. Low-floor accessibility. No overhead wires. A sleek, modern style resembling a light-rail train.
In a nutshell, those are some of the modern streetcar design characteristics that transit agency officials in many North American cities are interested in, streetcar builders say. ...............................

Going wireless
Also increasingly popular in the design realm is a streetcar that can operate without the need for overhead electrical wires, Drouin says. ...........Streetcars capable of operating on and off wire are of particular interest in cities where local officials want to preserve a wire-free view in historic districts, as well as in communities seeking to save money on infrastructure costs, says Bill Kleppinger, program manager for Kinkisharyo International L.L.C., which earlier this year unveiled the prototype for its new, 100-percent low-floor ameriTRAM™ streetcar.


real full article here..........http://www.progressiverailroading.com/passenger_rail/article/Streetcar-builders-see-potential-in-North-American-market--27561

What is the Okc estimated time frame that a streetcar type needs to be looked at for selection?

Any chance that Okc would use the wireless streetcar system?,, or is it to late for that decision?

My understanding is that that decision has not been made yet but will need to fairly shortly, i.e., as part of the "investigation and standards" phase of the streetcar project that will take place over the next few months. I know that at least some of the Streetcar subcommittee members have been very closely looking at some of the pre-production wireless technologies out there.

"Ding!"

0odXnKhKBxQ

I know that at least some of the Streetcar subcommittee members have been very closely looking at some of the pre-production wireless technologies out there.


That is correct. Several of us have traveled to Dallas and ridden the ameriTRAM described in the article and one of the group is headed to Germany to ride the electro-magnetic streetcar in the article. These trips thus far are paid for out of our own pockets although when we get further into the selection phase it is my understanding we might have a few city sponsored trips in which everyone on the committee can go not unlike the Devon riverboat selection process.

Ding indeed.

At least one city in France is already using wireless trams and another is using trams that can actually go off track altogether.

It took me a few minutes to find it again but Nancy, FR is the city that has trams that are capable of leaving the tracks. BTW - I hate this idea so please don't do it. No tracks, means no permanence, means no TOD.

On Track
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/10460621.jpg


Off Track
http://www.trams-trolleybus.be/trolley_nancy/Nancy_83_2S.jpg

I don't like the "off track". There's no tracks under that streetcar. Therefore, that makes me ask, whats the difference between Pic #2 and what we have now as in the trolley buses? Yes, coupled cars I assume is your answer. There's just something about a streetcar on an actual set path that is iconic and nostalgic. Nothing in Pic #2 does anything for me, other than tell me that thing could get on the highway if it wanted to tie up traffic...derp!

I agree OKCisOK4me - I prefer the visable infrastructure. It serves as a visual cue to people that there is streecar service and people can see where it goes.

There is no difference in my mind between that off-track tram and a trolley-bus. It would be better on emissions, but that is the only real difference I could see.

Thays the point I was making Spartan. But we don't want "off track" (just the facts and me), we want "on track" and its the same car one way or another, so the emissions would be better either way. I just don't want to see another tire trolley/streetcar.

I don't think anyone wants a repeat of the trolleys as they turned out to be a failure. The same folks that are responsible for the Bus/Trolley/River Cruise failures are going to be running the Streetcars. Does no one else see the inherent problem with this?

The critical issues as has been described, are that one of the reasons that such desirable development (TOD's) is becuase of the permanence of the tracks and the fact that if they are there the developer nos dang well that they are not going anywhere and can then be seen as a permanent amenity to the residents and patrons of said developments. There is also the publics way finding abilities that a track helps aclimate even visitors to quickly understand how the system works and where it will take them. WIth regard to the operators, I think that the city needs to realize that the best way forward is to develop a regional transportation authority that focuses on Mass transit. This would specifically deal with the Street Car, expand to address and manage commuter rail, and eventually take over the Bus system as well so that we have one entity that can coordinate and maximise and compliment the integration of each for the most optimal solution. Seems like this was discussed way back but I hope that this is being considered so that we have the structure in place as the system grows.

It's headed that way. Infact, the RTA was discussed at length at this last Council Meeting. Regarding Rick Cain, he is an excellent admin. He simply does not have the resources to completely reformat the bus system
the way it should be- longer hours, a smaller service area, with grid type routing.

Does anyone know if the city plans to consider hiring a company, other than Metro, to operate the streetcar, specifically, one that already operates a rail system? I sure hope so, considering the public and City Council have all acknowledged that there are serious issues with our current transit system. The funding issue is a biggie, no doubt about it, but it can't be the whole story. Perhaps we need to see our options and proposals from other transit companies to make sure OKC and the forthcoming RTA members get the best deal and best operator. If Metro comes out ahead, great, at least we will have seen all of our options.

That is very encouraging to hear!

Back to the future

An Art Deco train depot will serve as ‘Grand Central Station’ for the metro’s awaited intermodal transit system.

Click to see the Intermodal Transportation Hub Master Plan:
http://www.okgazette.com/oklahoma/article-13063-back-to-the-future.html

Wonderful!

Guess I should claim royalties (or copyright infringement) as I posted an almost identical concept on this forum earlier this year... however I will just revel in the idea that this will actually be built at one point.

My only concern is that the terminal area seems a bit small. Once thousands of people are going through there on a daily basis, significant expansion will be necessary.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8318229/OKC%20Station.pdf

Neighboring communities pledge support for OKC mass transit
By Brian Brus
Journal Record
Oklahoma City reporter
Posted: 07:52 PM Wednesday, September 28, 2011

OKLAHOMA CITY – As City Council members and municipal staff move toward the development of a mass transportation system with a hub near downtown Oklahoma City, some have asked to what degree the other metro-area governments are willing to help share the costs.

A recent show of commitment from those cities should help put those concerns to rest, Edmond Community Development Manager Shannon Entz said.

“The city of Edmond has budgeted and signed a memorandum of understanding to help pay for and support the alternatives analysis for commuter rail,” she said. “So that’s a sign that we’re all moving forward on this together.

We’ve also contributed staff time to keep up with the project and provide input when necessary, to keep Edmond’s interests in mind.”

The Oklahoma City Council this week approved the submission of an application for a Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery, or TIGER, grant worth $17 million through the U.S. Transportation Department. The city has been working with the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments, the Central Oklahoma Transportation and Parking Authority and the state Department of Transportation to create an Intermodal Transportation Hub Master Plan to design a mass transit system to serve not only Oklahoma City, but neighboring communities as well. Major routes have been discussed that would link Tinker Air Force Base, the University of Oklahoma in Norman and the University of Central Oklahoma in Edmond, for example.

“To create this hub, a significant amount of funding is required to fund both the acquisition of property and the construction needed to create a functional transportation center,” City Manager Jim Couch told council members. “The city of Oklahoma City has identified some funding in the MAPS 3 program for this project, but additional funding is necessary.”

In addition to seeking out federal matching funds, the city has also entered into a memorandum of understanding to formalize a relationship with the Association of Central Oklahoma Governments to participate with the cities of Norman, Edmond, Moore, Midwest City and Del City in a commuter corridor alternatives analysis worth a total of $160,555.

Rick Cain, Oklahoma City’s public transportation and parking director, said the discretionary TIGER grant application will get a boost from the large number of participants backing a plan that links multiple transport modes together, such as buses, streetcars, bicycles and Amtrak rail.

A study earlier this year projected that the metro area will have more than 1.7 million people by 2050 and be ready for a mass transit system allowing people to switch from one type of vehicle to another as they move from job to home and leisure areas. As envisioned, those systems will intersect at a central location – the old Santa Fe railroad station near Bricktown.

To build the fully integrated hub over the next few decades is expected to cost about $128 million in inflation-adjusted dollars, city officials said.

Oklahoma City Councilman Larry McAtee this week asked whether other cities are willing to step up to help pay for such a large sum.

Entz and Norman Mayor Cindy Rosenthal said Wednesday that their cities’ commitment to the long haul has been proven by putting up money for the alternatives analysis, which is expected to take 18 to 24 months to complete.

“This may be a small step, but it’s an important step and shows the interest in the region that we need to look at this with a wider perspective,” Rosenthal said. “We’re in a totally different place than we were three years ago on these issues.

“And there’s no question that what will be required for a regional transportation system that will benefit the entire area is some sort of regional authority which has a revenue stream associated with it,” she said. “That may involve some sort of sales tax or incremental property sales tax growth near the hubs or a hotel-motel tax. It’s going to require a regionwide vote.”

Entz agreed that support for the overall concept of mass transit in central Oklahoma is strong, and that ultimately will need to be justified with a stronger operations plan that supports the several metro communities.

Woohoo! Go Oklahoma City and surrounding communities! And is it really gonna take us till 2050 just to get 1.7 million metro area residents?

Woohoo! Go Oklahoma City and surrounding communities! And is it really gonna take us till 2050 just to get 1.7 million metro area residents?

That is a very conservative estimate. Our growth would definitely have to slow down for that to happen. The metro population jumped by almost 200,000 during the 2000 to 2010 period.