Whether or not people attend a convention in OKC is not the issue. The issue is we want them to have a great time while they're here so they will go back home and brag about how cool OKC is. It's really not that complicated.

Or, is the suggestion that we shouldn't care anyway 'cause if they're coming to the squaredancing convention they're coming to square dance and won't care anyway? I think that's a lousy way of looking at things.

For the record, we should build the coolest convention we can afford in the most sensible location.

I just did this for something else I'm working on right now, but thought it would be cool to post it here, too.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_L3gtvb8usg4/SyhN6RaifXI/AAAAAAAAARY/Ad2kWSCLBRk/s320/Billy-Mays-pointing-2.jpg

Re-posting this because it got lost. What do people think about schools meshing with transit? Should kids use a local transit system instead of school buses?

I went to Bermuda this past summer for my anniversary. They don't even have school buses there. All of the students ride public transit.

I don't think it is practical to expect school children to ride mass transit to school. Some might be able to do it but it would be nowhere near a majority. I would say 1% at best. Now if the street car was to serve a University campus you might have some decent ridership from students.

I read an article where schools in Kentucky were looking at implementing a plan to charge for bus transportation, I think this would be a fair solution to the ever increasing cost of transporting kids to and from school.

I don't think it is practical to expect school children to ride mass transit to school. Some might be able to do it but it would be nowhere near a majority. I would say 1% at best. Now if the street car was to serve a University campus you might have some decent ridership from students.

I agree. Keep in mind that we're not talking about a high school or middle school, that won't be what MAPS for Kids builds downtown. The MAPS for Kids money is for a downtown elementary school, to be specific. I like the idea in concept, but I just don't feel comfortable having elementary school kids ride the streetcar alone, same as I wouldn't feel comfortable having elementary schools kids drive themselves home or walk a mile alone in the suburbs. I know some kids do, my dad always liked to tell me how he did it every day in the sleet and the snow and the -40 degrees (in Houston), but let's be real here.

Now if we're talking about students at the OHC, OCU Law, or perhaps even OCU eventually, yeah that could be a HUGE plus. I ride the C-Train at least once a day in Calgary, because it has a stop about half a mile from my apartment and I can ride for very little into downtown. Once I cross the Bow River and I'm in downtown I can ride for free and go about my day. It's amazing all of the diversity I see on the train.. people of all different races, creeds, occupations, ages, etc..

Posted by Ocklawaha in the comments section of the Moving Forward article:

"Also, it should be noted that NO other city is broadcasting more Anti-Jacksonville crap then OKC, as the media there is having a Jaguar/Jacksonville/Failed Everything Feeding Frenzy."

Where is he getting that 'crap'??

What???? What on earth is he talking about?

I agree. Keep in mind that we're not talking about a high school or middle school, that won't be what MAPS for Kids builds downtown. The MAPS for Kids money is for a downtown elementary school, to be specific. I like the idea in concept, but I just don't feel comfortable having elementary school kids ride the streetcar alone.

With that knowledge I guess the streetcar could still be used but with the parents taking them to school. Maybe say, dropping them off on the way to work.... or some future grocery store or something. If we want to develop a truly sustainable urban lifestyle within OKC, then we need to think urban.

Well I'm the last person that needs to be told to think urban, and yeah parents could use the streetcar to drop their kids off, but let's not assume streetcar will make little kids more independent. Parents still need to take their kids to school and pick them up.

Urban Pioneer - what you are envisioning would require numerous high-rise condos and apartments to supply a steady stream of elementary students year after year. I don't think that will happen in OKC for a very long time

Then who exactly is the elementary school planned and financed going to serve? I agree about the length of time. But if our existing schools prove anything, the buildings are often 40 years old or later. So why not plan for the future since this is all new construction?

Downtown is a stronghold for SINKS and DINKS. The need for a school seems a tad bit premature. And frankly, if a school is planned correctly it shouldn't need very much in terms of long distance transportation. Kids can and should walk/ride their bike.

C2S seems like the only area that will see the critical mass of families to warrant an elementary school. IMO.

Urban, ask L. Hopper if COTPA has ever tried the school approach.

Then who exactly is the elementary school planned and financed going to serve? I agree about the length of time. But if our existing schools prove anything, the buildings are often 40 years old or later. So why not plan for the future since this is all new construction?

I wasn't talking about a school having enough students to support it. I was talking about a street car line having enough children within a reasonable distance of the rails to make the street car a viable transportation method. It seems unrealistic to ask a family to drive a mile to a street car stop, let their 9 year old get out, and ride the street car the last 1/2 mile.

It seems unrealistic to ask a family to drive a mile to a street car stop, let their 9 year old get out, and ride the street car the last 1/2 mile.

It's no more unrealistic than expecting scores of people to drive a mile(or more) into downtown to park and ride the streetcar a 1/2 mile to get to work, or to go to the park.

It's no more unrealistic than expecting scores of people to drive a mile(or more) into downtown to park and ride the streetcar a 1/2 mile to get to work, or to go to the park.

Hold on. You are talking about two different things here. It is totally realistic to expect someone to drive in from Edmond, park their car in Bricktown for dinner, and then take the streetcar to the Performing Arts Center. It is also totally reasonable to expect someone from OU medical to take the streetcar to Bricktown for lunch. The difference is people aren't parking at school - they are only dropping off and picking up.

Once the tracks are laid, residential density will increase along those lines, but there won't be any critical mass elementary school children. You might have a few but I would bet no more than 1% of a 700 student elementary school.

Hold on. You are talking about two different things here. It is totally realistic to expect someone to drive in from Edmond, park their car in Bricktown for dinner, and then take the streetcar to the Performing Arts Center. It is also totally reasonable to expect someone from OU medical to take the streetcar to Bricktown for lunch. The difference is people aren't parking at school - they are only dropping off and picking up.


I fail to see the difference. Instead of dropping off and picking up at the school, they'll drop off and pick up at one of many streetcar stops.

I fail to see the difference. Instead of dropping off and picking up at the school, they'll drop off and pick up at one of many streetcar stops.

Exactly - so why would you do that and have your 9 year old child wait for a streetcar that might not arrive for 5 to 10 more minutes when you can drive another 45 seconds and drop them off at the front door. 'Kiss and Gos' work well for mom and dad going to work but not so well for elementary school kids.

Regarding the "hub", keep in mind that we want the streetcar to be the nexus for the future Regional Transit System- commuter rail. So, more than likely that might be somewhere between the new boulevard/convention center and the Bricktown/SanteFe Station.

Here's something really cool to think about.

As Urban points out, the rail hub is almost certainly going to be located on the north-south Santa Fe line. Obviously, the terminal area of the hub for commuter rail, Amtrak, High-Speed rail will be located above-grade on the elevated rail area. But what about the streetcar and other possible future light rail?

The unusual nature of having an elevated commuter rail terminal actually would allow for the development of an at-grade light rail (streetcar) terminal under the commuter rail terminal. Streetcars would move through the hub by connecting inside an indoor terminal area. Direct connection between the commuter rail terminal above and light rail terminal below would be provided by escalators and elevators (for ADA complaince) leading up and down from the passenger platforms.

A bi-level terminal like this would be functionally very efficient as a rail transit hub and would open up all kinds of possibilities with regard to transit passenger services. If done right, we could end up with one of the best and most unique rail transit hubs in the region.

Exactly - so why would you do that and have your 9 year old child wait for a streetcar that might not arrive for 5 to 10 more minutes when you can drive another 45 seconds and drop them off at the front door. 'Kiss and Gos' work well for mom and dad going to work but not so well for elementary school kids.

Why? For the same reason you might not want to suck up 10-20 minutes of your lunch break waiting on the streetcar. Or standing out in the cold at night for ten minutes after dinner in Bricktown when you could drive to the Performing Arts Center in 4 or five minutes.

To support the mass transit system in OKC. The one you all voted for and can't wait to start using.. Oh, unless your child has to wait, or its cold, or wet, or whatever other excuse you want to use that can be applied to *everyone* who could potentially ride the streetcar, or bus.

Why? For the same reason you might not want to suck up 10-20 minutes of your lunch break waiting on the streetcar. Or standing out in the cold at night for ten minutes after dinner in Bricktown when you could drive to the Performing Arts Center in 4 or five minutes.

To support the mass transit system in OKC. The one you all voted for and can't wait to start using.. Oh, unless your child has to wait, or its cold, or wet, or whatever other excuse you want to use that can be applied to *everyone* who could potentially ride the streetcar, or bus.

You are being unproductive.

People will be able to time when they go outside to wait for the streetcar. Because they are fixed rail and maybe even will have traffic signal priority, it will be easy to predict when the streetcar will arrive, within the minute. They often have online applications for mobile phones, and digital boards at the stop, that show when the next streetcar will arrive.

Driving from one parking spot to another in downtown means finding and paying for a new one, making the streetcar a viable alternative.

The truth is that people WILL ride it. Even Little Rock Arkansas has exceeded its own expectations for ridership on its streetcar line.

No sense in being bitter. The vote has passed. Streetcar is happening. Be productive now, stop fighting, and embrace the idea that downtown Oklahoma City will continue to change and adapt to fully utilize the streetcar system.

You are being unproductive.

People will be able to time when they go outside to wait for the streetcar. Because they are fixed rail and maybe even will have traffic signal priority, it will be easy to predict when the streetcar will arrive, within the minute. They often have online applications for mobile phones, and digital boards at the stop, that show when the next streetcar will arrive.

Driving from one parking spot to another in downtown means finding and paying for a new one, making the streetcar a viable alternative.

The truth is that people WILL ride it. Even Little Rock Arkansas has exceeded its own expectations for ridership on its streetcar line.

No sense in being bitter. The vote has passed. Streetcar is happening. Be productive now, stop fighting, and embrace the idea that downtown Oklahoma City will continue to change and adapt to fully utilize the streetcar system.

Umm, I think you're griping out the wrong person.

I'm not the one suggesting that students won't ride it because it's faster for parents to ignore the streetcar and dropoff/pickup right at the school.

Here's something really cool to think about.

As Urban points out, the rail hub is almost certainly going to be located on the north-south Santa Fe line. Obviously, the terminal area of the hub for commuter rail, Amtrak, High-Speed rail will be located above-grade on the elevated rail area. But what about the streetcar and other possible future light rail?

The unusual nature of having an elevated commuter rail terminal actually would allow for the development of an at-grade light rail (streetcar) terminal under the commuter rail terminal. Streetcars would move through the hub by connecting inside an indoor terminal area. Direct connection between the commuter rail terminal above and light rail terminal below would be provided by escalators and elevators (for ADA complaince) leading up and down from the passenger platforms.

A bi-level terminal like this would be functionally very efficient as a rail transit hub and would open up all kinds of possibilities with regard to transit passenger services. If done right, we could end up with one of the best and most unique rail transit hubs in the region.

I went to the Thunder game Wednesday night, parked under the Cox Convention Center and I got a chance to look at the Santa Fe station. I could see them creating dedicated turn lanes coming north on EK Gaylord to Reno and south from Main to Sheridan so they would not have to completely change the layout of the streets north and south EK Gaylord from Sheridan to Reno. They could then take out the median in that area, expand the station and also take over the parking lot north of the station. Or use the lanes closest to the station for the streetcar.

Why? For the same reason you might not want to suck up 10-20 minutes of your lunch break waiting on the streetcar. Or standing out in the cold at night for ten minutes after dinner in Bricktown when you could drive to the Performing Arts Center in 4 or five minutes.

To support the mass transit system in OKC. The one you all voted for and can't wait to start using.. Oh, unless your child has to wait, or its cold, or wet, or whatever other excuse you want to use that can be applied to *everyone* who could potentially ride the streetcar, or bus.

The difference is I can distinguish between grown adults and 9 year old children. I thought everyone could do that but maybe I just have a gift.

Should be able to check streetcar arrival times online or from your cellphone, I would guess. You can do that in other cities. So, no waiting out in the cold unless you want to do so.

Umm, I think you're griping out the wrong person.

I'm not the one suggesting that students won't ride it because it's faster for parents to ignore the streetcar and dropoff/pickup right at the school.

Sarcasm does not always equal wit.

The difference is I can distinguish between grown adults and 9 year old children. I thought everyone could do that but maybe I just have a gift.

What does the age of the rider have to do with actually riding the Streetcar?

There's absolutely no reason why a child couldn't ride the streetcar despite the lame excuses you're using.

There's even been multiple reasons posted explaining why your child wouldn't have to wait as long as you suggest.

If everyone takes on your attitude about using the streetcar, or any mass transit, this thing is doomed to failure. And the worst part is that it's an attitude you're willing to pass on to future generations by poor example.

Sarcasm does not always equal wit.

??? wtf are you talking about?

What does the age of the rider have to do with actually riding the Streetcar?

There's absolutely no reason why a child couldn't ride the streetcar despite the lame excuses you're using.

There's even been multiple reasons posted explaining why your child wouldn't have to wait as long as you suggest.

If everyone takes on your attitude about using the streetcar, or any mass transit, this thing is doomed to failure. And the worst part is that it's an attitude you're willing to pass on to future generations by poor example.

Wait a minute - are you suggesting people should let their elementary school children ride the street car unsupervised? Do you leave your young children in the car with the engine running while you go into the mall?

:backtotop

Wait a minute - are you suggesting people should let their elementary school children ride the street car unsupervised? Do you leave your young children in the car with the engine running while you go into the mall?

Not picking sides, but how is letting your elementary age children ride a street car any different than letting them ride a school bus. Do you think the bus drivers are safer and more protective than a street car driver.

Holy Jeebus can we quit the hairsplitting on this thread? I think it's clear that Kerry and other parents wouldn't feel comfortable letting their elementary school kids riding the street car by themselves. Other parents might not have a problem with it.

This isn't really worth arguing about, considering it will be a niche usage statistic anyway.

For what it's worth, it would be nice if there is a new school that it be located near a street car stop. Next.

The difference is I can distinguish between grown adults and 9 year old children. ...

Easy peasey ... 9 year olds make more sense & use fewer words doing so.

I guess were entitled to our opinions, we just can't share them, especially if you don't agree with something someone else has posted.

I don't think it's so much the idea of kids riding the rails home from school that bothers me, because let's face it, tons of little kids walk long distances alone to go home every day. What bothers me is kids going home from school alone, period. Where are the parents of all these kids?

Parents not attending to their own kids in downtown is no different from parents not attending to their own kids out in the suburbs.

I don't think it's so much the idea of kids riding the rails home from school that bothers me, because let's face it, tons of little kids walk long distances alone to go home every day. What bothers me is kids going home from school alone, period. Where are the parents of all these kids?

Parents not attending to their own kids in downtown is no different from parents not attending to their own kids out in the suburbs.

Downtown is probably actually safer than the suburbs.

I don't think it's so much the idea of kids riding the rails home from school that bothers me, because let's face it, tons of little kids walk long distances alone to go home every day. What bothers me is kids going home from school alone, period. Where are the parents of all these kids?

Seriously? you do realize that this isn't 1955, or even the 70's, right?

They're at work. If the kid still has both parents, he's at least got that going for him over most kids in Oklahoma, but they're both at work.

Downtown is probably actually safer than the suburbs.

No doubt, but I'm just making it clear that skepticism over elementary school students riding the rails home isn't about rail itself..

This isn't really worth arguing about, considering it will be a niche usage statistic anyway.

Right. It's all rather moot because we aren't considering the streetcar solely as an alternative to school buses, nor are we considering eliminating school bus routes to the downtown school.

Moving on...

I went to the Thunder game Wednesday night, parked under the Cox Convention Center and I got a chance to look at the Santa Fe station. I could see them creating dedicated turn lanes coming north on EK Gaylord to Reno and south from Main to Sheridan so they would not have to completely change the layout of the streets north and south EK Gaylord from Sheridan to Reno. They could then take out the median in that area, expand the station and also take over the parking lot north of the station. Or use the lanes closest to the station for the streetcar.

We are definitely in a street narrowing mentality post the Jeff Speck report. EK Gaylord is definitely on the hit list.

I have seem some streetcar lines in the Czech Republic where they took out a lane of street and planted lush grass with the rails only visible out of the lawn. Pretty cool streetscaping.

We are definitely in a street narrowing mentality post the Jeff Speck report. EK Gaylord is definitely on the hit list.

I have seem some streetcar lines in the Czech Republic where they took out a lane of street and planted lush grass with the rails only visible out of the lawn. Pretty cool streetscaping.

I don't know if I would call it lush, but the St. Charles streetcar in New Orleans runs through the grass in the middle of the boulevard. That's what gave me the idea of running our streetcar along the new boulevard, if it fit in with route plans.

Here in Amsterdam there has been an ongoing and successful effort for years to slowly wean the city from automobile traffic altogether while giving more space to pedestrians and bicycles.

Granted this approach may not work yet for OKC, but it is definitely a move in the right direction. What will be created is the motivation for the public and commuter to actually use the the new public transportation as it is simply easier in the long run.

Crucial to this however is indeed a well-integrated transportation center. The idea of expanding the Sante Fe station into a greater center, connecting streetcars, commuter rails, high speed rail, and (why not) canal traffic in a multilevel facility is a winning one. Again that is exactly what is happening here in Amsterdam. Busses, trains, streetcars, and yes, even boats use the Amsterdam Central Station.

And why not an Oklahoma City Central Station?!

The cherry on the icing would be to have the new convention center and hotel located directly at this facility. Talk about creating a new center! Goes without saying that larger parking facilities would be conveniently placed at commuter and streetcar locations further away from downtown, where land is cheaper. Lots of dreams, but now is definitely the time for OKC to think big.

I am quite proud of my old home town for taking this route, and am watching closely what develops.

Touche OKC!

Crucial to this however is indeed a well-integrated transportation center. The idea of expanding the Sante Fe station into a greater center, connecting streetcars, commuter rails, high speed rail, and (why not) canal traffic in a multilevel facility is a winning one.



Exactly! An well-designed intermodal hub is critically important. But it's the one essential element that was not technically evaluated in the Fixed Guideway Study. That's about to change though. Oklahoma City has directed ACOG and COTPA to undertake a full-blown intermodal rail transit hub study to determine just what we will need to service our future system.

The passage of MAPS 3 and the funding of the streetcar system was a vital and tremendous step forward to developing that system. With that accomplished, of equal or maybe even greater importance now will be determining the best location and design for the hub. The hub study will begin after the first of the year and it's a very important piece of the puzzle.

Just as it's important for everyone to express their thoughts on the design of the streetcar system, it's also important to begin thinking about the hub and what we would like to see in terms of its design and location, as well as other potential services and amenities that could be associated with it.

We have the enviable opportunity of developing a first class modern streetcar system and intermodal rail transit hub in the coming years and that's something to get really excited about. Touche indeed!

A couple questions to ponder:

1) Should the transit hub include city buses despite the nearly brand new central bus station in Midtown?

2) Should the transit hub include space for rental car agencies?

I think this is where you start running into inefficiencies and duplications of services and facilities with existing and planned separate projects.

I think the transit hub would have to include city buses. I'm trying to think of an alternate use for that space in Midtown, but I'm sure there could be one. I would think that rental car space is unnecessary. People flying in can rent cars at the airport, and if you're coming in by train, surely those people would be more open to public transportation.

I think the transit hub would have to include city buses. I'm trying to think of an alternate use for that space in Midtown, but I'm sure there could be one. I would think that rental car space is unnecessary. People flying in can rent cars at the airport, and if you're coming in by train, surely those people would be more open to public transportation.

What do you mean, those people?
- Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder

LMAO

I dont think the streetcar hub has to be the transit hub of the future. Have the the streetcar hub be an effecient but small hub and then build a new large transit station (trains, lightrail, buses) south of existing I40 somewhere. Then just make sure the streetcar has a line that goes to the new transit station.

I think this is planned to be THE hub.

I think the transit hub would have to include city buses. I'm trying to think of an alternate use for that space in Midtown, but I'm sure there could be one.

OK - see if this is feasable. A new downtown transit hub would include city bus service. The existing hub, recently completed, becomes the new Greyhound Bus Station. The current Greyhound Bus station is sold and the project for that block can commence.

I dont think the streetcar hub has to be the transit hub of the future. Have the the streetcar hub be an effecient but small hub and then build a new large transit station (trains, lightrail, buses) south of existing I40 somewhere. Then just make sure the streetcar has a line that goes to the new transit station.

No. This is not how it's going to be. There will be a universal hub connecting the streetcar to the commuter rail. It would make sense to connect to the buses as well, IMO.

Especially if we can somehow, magically, turn around our bus system..


OK - see if this is feasable. A new downtown transit hub would include city bus service. The existing hub, recently completed, becomes the new Greyhound Bus Station. The current Greyhound Bus station is sold and the project for that block can commence.

I would just hate to see the Greyhound station get torn down. Or any buildings on that black for that matter.

When the Fixed Guideway Study was being completed, the turmoil of Union Station was at its peak and SanteFe was regarded as hard to convert. Therefore, the hub issue itself was somewhat glazed over.

What we have found out since is that SanteFe has an incredible opportunity that has been hidden. There is a tunnel running through it for pedestrians and stairwell platforms that have been buried.

The Hub Analysis Study that is being planned by ACOG will probably take a much closer technical look at the possibilities of SanteFe.

It will be interesting to see if the businesses in the loading docks stay or go.

I would love for it to be at Santa Fe. The Brewers aren't adequately using it anyway.


OK - see if this is feasable. A new downtown transit hub would include city bus service. The existing hub, recently completed, becomes the new Greyhound Bus Station. The current Greyhound Bus station is sold and the project for that block can commence.

Sounds perfect. Would go with restoration of Union Bus Station, as opposed to demolition, though.

I could see the bus station being used as a very cool space for a little bodega or maybe a pizzeria or something.

It would be crazy to tear down the Greyhound bus station. That's a great space with a lot of potential.

A couple questions to ponder:

1) Should the transit hub include city buses despite the nearly brand new central bus station in Midtown?

2) Should the transit hub include space for rental car agencies?

I say keep the city bus terminal, just make it a stop on the streetcar line. Although I also like the idea of making the current bus station the new Greyhound Bus station.

I like Kerry's idea, but instead of just removing the Union bus station - we can keep it's facade and let the other urban development incorporate it.

I also disagree that we need the hub to be in the current CBD area.. There's no reason why the hub couldn't be in C2S somewhere, with the streetcar connecting it to the rest of downtown. After all, isn't the goal of this whole thing to get people using mass transit and AWAY from cars/busses/etc? Well, having the hub near the convention center ON the streetcar line accomplishes that and many many more.

And I completely agree that the current bus hub in midtown should become greyhound (but also be on the streetcar line). I think it would also be a good idea to have a car rental or two there or at Amtrak (like it used to be). The C2S main hub could be Commmuter Rail/HSR/light rail/streetcar/city bus intermodal facility (in other words, I don't think greyhound needs to be there).

I second David Pollard! Definitely exciting times for Oklahoma City, so PROUD of my hometown!!!!