Still think it's a fail charging fares immediately, that and the limited Sunday service....

I agree about immediate charges, but that looks to be the way it's going. We won't see non-event-based Sunday streetcar service until Sunday bus service has been implemented it seems.

Still think it's a fail charging fares immediately, that and the limited Sunday service....

I would think the $1 fare wold dissuade a lot of people from trying it for the first time, which is a problem. From my experience, the biggest challenge with public transportation is to get people to take a first ride and then come back for a second one. There's a learning curve during that time and it's the least practical experience. You can't just relax and get where you're going because you're figuring the system out. After a few rides, you figure out the system and how to pay, and then you can relax and enjoy the ride without thinking about it.

What does the canal boat ride cost? A lot more than $1. People will spend way more than a dollar to try it out. You can't even get a cup of coffee or a soda for a buck anymore. If people don't ride it to save a dollar then they don't find any value in it, period. Don't understand this idea that it has to be free.

That said, they might want to consider making it free for the first month... like giving free cookie samples.

What does the canal boat ride cost? A lot more than $1. People will spend way more than a dollar to try it out. You can't even get a cup of coffee or a soda for a buck anymore. If people don't ride it to save a dollar then they don't find any value in it, period. Don't understand this idea that it has to be free.

That said, they might want to consider making it free for the first month... like giving free cookie samples.

It's not that the price is unreasonable or unfair. $1 is not a big economic barrier, it's a logistical/mental one. The problem is in how people will have to pay that $1. Either (a) they pay with cash, (b) they have to navigate a new machine to buy a ticket, or (c) they have to download an app, fill in information and add a credit card, and then try to use it. All of those are impediments. For example, I don't ever carry cash, I find using new parking meters annoying and I unconsciously avoid them, and my phone often won't download apps without connecting to Internet. I am sure there are many people like me so I just wonder, is $1 worth losing a lot of riders? And, I'm not an expert so maybe it won't cost many riders, but I'm skeptical.

I'm not saying the system should necessarily be free either. I'm just pointing out that the system will lose a lot of riders, particularly casual or new ones, with every barrier to entry.

It's not that the price is unreasonable or unfair. $1 is not a big economic barrier, it's a logistical/mental one. The problem is in how people will have to pay that $1. Either (a) they pay with cash, (b) they have to navigate a new machine to buy a ticket, or (c) they have to download an app, fill in information and add a credit card, and then try to use it. All of those are impediments. For example, I don't ever carry cash, I find using new parking meters annoying and I unconsciously avoid them, and my phone often won't download apps without connecting to Internet. I am sure there are many people like me. I'm not saying the system should necessarily be free either. I'm just pointing out that the system will lose a lot of riders, particularly casual or new ones, with every barrier to entry.

Disagree. Fare is totally reasonable and ticket and/or fare payment method should not prevent any reasonable person from riding. Seems to be a lot of naysers on every thread that reflects progress or improvement. Not everyone will like every sign or road or building design or Amazon incentive,but a lot of great improvements and job diversity is happening all over OKC and although I can find something to criticize about each one I won't because they represent a net positive IMO for the city.

Disagree. Fare is totally reasonable and ticket and/or fare payment...

Are you responding to the wrong person? I very clearly said the price is reasonable in my post and it would NOT serve as an economic barrier. You didn't respond to any of the other topics I addressed in my post otherwise.

A couple of things:


The fare is what EMBARK will be charging. It is entirely possible that a corporation or organization might yet underwrite/spoonsor service for the introductory period. This is actively being considered/pursued as far as I know.


Sunday service, which I agree is critical, is not a 100% no-go. There are already a large number of Sunday event days already identified (including for instance Sunday Thunder games) which will get special event service. I can't remember the exact number but it is a few dozen I think. Beyond that it is again possible that it could be underwritten in some way. There are important non-EMBARK stakeholders who are very aware of the need for Sunday service. They continue to explore ways to help make this happen.

In other words, it ain't over 'til it's over. EMBARK is doing what they feel they can commit to at this point, which is fair, but that doesn't mean 100% that is what service will look like at startup.

Are you responding to the wrong person? I very clearly said the price is reasonable in my post and it would NOT serve as an economic barrier. You didn't respond to any of the other topics I addressed in my post otherwise.

You intimated that the method to purchase tickets would be a barrier to entry and cause the loss of riders particularly new ones or casial ones, I disagree, but respect your opinion

You intimated that the method to purchase tickets would be a barrier to entry and cause the loss of riders particularly new ones or casial ones, I disagree, but respect your opinion

Yes, that is what I said. Just to make sure I'm understanding your argument, you think a system that requires a payment will have as many riders as a free one?

Again, I clearly stated that I do not have any problem with the $1 fare. I just wonder how much it could lower the number of riders, especially casual or impulse riders. Hopefully, as Urbanized suggests, sponsors will take care of fares and the $1 fee won't be necessary.

Portland's central circulator is free, while the extended lines cost. Seems like a fair model.

Disagree. Fare is totally reasonable and ticket and/or fare payment method should not prevent any reasonable person from riding. Seems to be a lot of naysers on every thread that reflects progress or improvement. Not everyone will like every sign or road or building design or Amazon incentive,but a lot of great improvements and job diversity is happening all over OKC and although I can find something to criticize about each one I won't because they represent a net positive IMO for the city.

I'm not a naysayer, I'm completely, totally, 10000% all for more public transportation and for the streetcar, but like Dan said, it's likely a lot of folks will think about giving the streetcar a try at lunch, then realize "Oh wait, I don't have cash, how do I pay, um, yeah, let me download an app, etc., or find a ticket kiosk, oh man, my lunch hour's over, oh well, too bad, not gonna mess with it". Not sure how many kiosks are going to be around or their location, but yes, the fare *will be* limiting ridership, almost guaranteed. Will it be enough to seriously harm the future of the streetcar? Who knows until it happens, but why should we even have to think/worry about that impediment?

Urbanized - good to know about the possible sponsorship for the introductory period, didn't know about that (knew about the sponsorship possibilities for Sunday service, though, so I hope that continues to be pursued, and I think I read that Sunday bus service will start in Jan, most likely, so that barrier will be out of the way soon).

OKCisOK4me - agree, that's a very good model we should consider.

Yes, that is what I said. Just to make sure I'm understanding your argument, you think a system that requires a payment will have as many riders as a free one?

Again, I clearly stated that I do not have any problem with the $1 fare. I just wonder how much it could lower the number of riders, especially casual or impulse riders. Hopefully, as Urbanized suggests, sponsors will take care of fares and the $1 fee won't be necessary.
If $1 is all that stops someone from riding then they didn’t really want to anyway. It’s not like asking $10. Its A DOLLAR.

I feel like starting a betting pool on how many different responses dankrutka is going to get that completely miss the point of his comments about free versus a cost.

Are some of these posters not reading entire replies?

No one is saying $1 is too much. It is the idea of creating a barrier for something that is brand new to basically every single potential rider. I have countless friends and have overheard many times that many already think the streetcar is "a stupid trolly" and it isn't even operating yet. These are the people who you need to remove barriers for.

For instance it is Saturday and you have been at Bleu Garten for a few hours and want to go to Bricktown for dinner but you are unable to drive and don't want to mess with parking. It is a nice day and Uber/Lyft are both surge price and/or taking a long time. Now if these people are able to just easily jump onto the streetcar and experience a free trip to Bricktown, suddenly you may have opened up their mind to using it regularly.

The entire point of free initial service is to make it as welcoming as possible to show people how it works. I would guess 90%+ of the people who are already writing-off the streetcar are people who don't understand what it is and how it will work.

If $1 is all that stops someone from riding then they didn’t really want to anyway. It’s not like asking $10. Its A DOLLAR.

My point exactly

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Saw this while leaving work over by OCU law!

If $1 is all that stops someone from riding then they didn’t really want to anyway. It’s not like asking $10. Its A DOLLAR.

You might want to re-read my post. I specifically said it's not the $1 that will stop someone from riding.

Edit: Saw after posting that everyone already pointed this out.

I feel like starting a betting pool on how many different responses dankrutka is going to get that completely miss the point of his comments about free versus a cost.

If you pay attention to this board, the same posters do this over and over again. They either argue with straw men they've created (e.g., "you all are anti-progress," "you can't take any criticism about OKC") or just fail to comprehend and respond to posts (see this thread) instead of joining in the conversations with everyone else. They react instead of respond. This has been happening with the same few posters for years.

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Saw this while leaving work over by OCU law!

Aside from discussions over the logistics of the streetcar, it really is exciting to see the stops in place. They really go a long way to create a sense of place. It's going to be fascinating to see what developments the streetcar spurs. The biggest benefit to this limited line will be living/working next to a stop. It's going to be valuable property.

If you pay attention to this board, the same posters do this over and over again. They either argue with straw men they've created (e.g., "you all are anti-progress," "you can't take any criticism about OKC") or just fail to comprehend and respond to posts (see this thread) instead of joining in the conversations with everyone else. They react instead of respond. This has been happening with the same few posters for years.

This board does a have a problem with taking criticism and I will continue to point that out in the future. It isn’t a straw man. It’s a fact. The real lie is when I’m called out for always being negative or that I hate OKC, which is NOT true.

This board does a have a problem with taking criticism and I will continue to point that out in the future. It isn’t a straw man. It’s a fact. The real lie is when I’m called out for always being negative or that I hate OKC, which is NOT true.

You make good contributions to this board so I am not trying to dismiss you or your contributions. However, your claim that the board in general can't take criticism is opposed by overwhelming amounts of evidence. You only say that when people disagree with your opinion, which you often like to call "a fact." Have you ever read the critiques of development proposals on this board? Proposals regularly get roundly criticized for a variety of reasons. I spent months criticizing Oklahoma's education shortcomings and I can think of a ton critiques of things that could be better. Recently, I chimed in on the shortcomings of Chisholm Creek. I could go on and on. It's just when people disagree with you bring out that strawman. If you want to argue with some nuance that the board should be more critical then that's fine, but it is not "a fact." It's your opinion and there's plenty of evidence to suggest you're overgeneralizing and/or inaccurate.

You make good contributions to this board so I am not trying to dismiss you or your contributions. However, your claim that the board in general can't take criticism is opposed by overwhelming amounts of evidence. You only say that when people disagree with your opinion, which you often like to call "a fact." Have you ever read the critiques of development proposals on this board? Proposals regularly get roundly criticized for a variety of reasons. I spent months criticizing Oklahoma's education shortcomings and I can think of a ton critiques of things that could be better. Recently, I chimed in on the shortcomings of Chisholm Creek. I could go on and on. It's just when people disagree with you bring out that strawman. If you want to argue with some nuance that the board should be more critical then that's fine, but it is not "a fact." It's your opinion and there's plenty of evidence to suggest you're overgeneralizing and/or inaccurate.

I'm not trying to play victim here and you are right, sometimes I do pass off opinions I have stating them as more factual which I need to stop and better explain my position. That being said, nearly every time I critique OKC, there are a select group of posters that jump on me as if I never say anything positive. I can take it so I'm not trippin, but it does get annoying sometimes when I'm made to be the bad guy who hates OKC.

I actually don't think your reputation on the board is as an OKC-hater. I think your brand is the cloverleaf interchange/highway guy. Lol. While I generally disagree, I enjoy the different perspective even if I state that I disagree.

I think a lot of us actually post here to discuss how to make OKC better, which involves criticism. This board is filled with constructive criticism maybe more than any other space online, which is why I come back. There's a lot of learning going on here.

Just received this via e-mail:


Good afternoon,

Now that track construction is complete in Bricktown, testing will begin. On Monday, May 21, a clearance cart will go around the B Line checking for trees that may need to be trimmed. If this original test goes as planned, a truck will tow an actual streetcar vehicle around the B Line on Thursday, May 24 between 5:30 p.m. and 9 p.m.
We will also start testing the pantograph by using a pantograph cart. The pantograph is what connects to the overhead power lines to power the streetcar when it is not on battery. This test will take place on Tuesday, May 22. Please let [sender] know if you have any questions.

If you will be parallel parking on Sheridan in Bricktown during testing, please pay attention to the white line. Your vehicle, including mirrors, needs to be fully inside the line to avoid bumps, scrapes or any kind of damage. If your vehicle is not parked completely inside the line, it is subject to being towed.

There were also photos of the clearance cart and pantograph testing.

https://mailchi.mp/adgokc/maps-3-streetcar-construction-update-2698005

If you don't regularly check out the streetcar social media, you should go take a look. They posted videos and pics from testing last night. Happened to walk by it on the way home from Bricktown and it was neat stuff....

Yea it looked awesome out there, even if it was being pulled by a truck!

If you don't regularly check out the streetcar social media, you should go take a look. They posted videos and pics from testing last night. Happened to walk by it on the way home from Bricktown and it was neat stuff....

What time did you see the testing? I walked from my apartment at Kerr and Walker to Bricktown and back and didn't see anything. I got home about 9:30. I am guessing it happened after that.

Timestamp on the pictures on my phone are 12:44am. I had a late dinner in Bricktown and then caught the 10:15pm screening of Solo before walking home.

So it looks like Sunday bus service is in the new city budget?

So it looks like Sunday bus service is in the new city budget?

Yes but I don’t think streetcar is.

Yes but I don’t think streetcar is.

Maybe not in the budget, but they might be able to find sponsors to help fund Sunday service, right? An argument against streetcar Sunday service was that there should first be Sunday bus service. I completely agree with this logic, by the way. Sunday bus service is a huge win in itself, but hopefully it leads to a Sunday streetcar solution too.

That’s what I was thinking. It doesn’t fund Sunday streetcar service, but it does remove one of the bigger arguments frequently raised against Sunday service.

Maybe not in the budget, but they might be able to find sponsors to help fund Sunday service, right? An argument against streetcar Sunday service was that there should first be Sunday bus service. I completely agree with this logic, by the way. Sunday bus service is a huge win in itself, but hopefully it leads to a Sunday streetcar solution too.

I think the political strategy is to not fund Sunday streetcar service until the buses actually start operating on sundays. In the meantime I think there’s an active discussion amongst downtown businesses and associations to fund it privately in the meantime.

I believe Sunday bus service before Sunday streetcar service was not just a matter of "it should be that way", but I read there was a possibility of Title VI lawsuits if Sunday streetcar service was started before Sunday bus service (nondoc or okpolicy maybe).

Sorry if it has been hashed out up thread, but what were the reasons Embark didn't have Sunday service to begin with?

I believe Sunday bus service before Sunday streetcar service was not just a matter of "it should be that way", but I read there was a possibility of Title VI lawsuits if Sunday streetcar service was started before Sunday bus service (nondoc or okpolicy maybe).

I was in the council meeting on Tuesday and can address this.

1) Councilman Shadid stated that, had OKC not budgeted for Sunday bus service, a Title VI lawsuit would have been a "slam dunk" loss for OKC. He still feels as though there is more work to do to make the entire transit system equitable (such as better amenities for bus riders).

2) There was Embark Link service for a period of time until August 2016. It had to be discontinued because it was not sustainable.

Was in Midtown this morning. Where they are laying the line, where the tracks are set but the concrete has not been placed, there was a small toyota stranded sideways on those tracks. Will be hell trying to get it out.

Sorry if it has been hashed out up thread, but what were the reasons Embark didn't have Sunday service to begin with?

To the best of my knowledge, the City has never provided Sunday bus service (outside of the Link service) since COTPA was established in 1966, when the private Oklahoma Transportation Company ceased operations. I *think* OTC offered Sunday service but I can't find much info on it.

There are five turns the streetcar makes where slip lanes were created to accommodate the wide turning radius of the streetcars. The two such turns in Bricktown are near the recharge zone and as such are Streetcar only slip lanes. However, the turns at 4th and Hudson, 10th and Robinson, and Sheridan and Gaylord, are open to not only streetcars, but to automobiles as well. I am very concerned that someone is going to get hit crossing the slip lane to get to the pedestrian island on the other side. The slip lanes only have yield signs and the wide turning radii encourages fast, easy turns. Seems to me we should limit these slip lanes to streetcar use only, and force cars to make the sharp square turn on the other side of the pedestrian island. What are your thoughts? If you are involved in the design or implementation of the streetcar, has there ever been a discussion about this? Will there be steps to mitigate the danger to pedestrians at these intersections?

I'll try to find a photo to illustrate what I mean if it's not clear

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This is a zoomed in edit of one of Pete's aerial photos taken from the p180 thread.

In the photo, the black car is about to enter the slip lane.

This turn is wide and potentially dangerous but it isn't as wide as the other two (4th and Hudson and 10th/Robinson) Next time I'm out there I'll snap some pics.

Well there are fairly large pedestrian refuges in the center, so I would treat it as crossing any other 1 lane street. Just watch for traffic. I don’t think these are a huge deal.

true they have pedestrian islands but the one in the image is much larger than the others. The other two would only be able to fit a few people. I see this as a minor convenience for fast turning that could potentially have severe consequences for pedestrians. Even if this set up isn't as dangerous as I think it could be, it absolutely is a step backwards in terms of traffic calming and pedestrian safety in these areas - especially after spending the $$$ and energy shortening the turning radii through the implementation of proj 180.

very nice article about KC streetcar in the NY Times, OKC gets a mention about our streetcar, I can remember going down to the old Kerr McGee building for swim workouts [the old Y is now gone] and downtown was empty. They are running it free by setting a tax zone on real estate connected to the streetcar.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/travel/the-perfect-way-to-explore-modern-kansas-city-a-streetcar-believe-it-or-not.html.

currently the downtown BID has special assessment rates for businesses connected to the canal and also for those connected to the underground. I suspect something similar could be done for the streetcar line, but seems like it would be quite the assessment in order to negate all fares. also I kind of doubt it could be done in time for BID 3.0 in 2020.

I had similar concerns as Ross M. However, I think they should have the crosswalk button on the corner of the intersection instead of the island. Also, the yield sign is a bit confusing. If I have a green light and I am turning right onto Robinson from 10th then I should have the right-a-way right? I feel like a lot of left turners are just going for it then I have to hit my brakes.

Also, do we have a timeline on when the city will finish painting new lines to separate the lanes? Most people I see just drive down in the middle of what should be a two-lane street.

I had similar concerns as Ross M. However, I think they should have the crosswalk button on the corner of the intersection instead of the island. Also, the yield sign is a bit confusing. If I have a green light and I am turning right onto Robinson from 10th then I should have the right-a-way right? I feel like a lot of left turners are just going for it then I have to hit my brakes.

Also, do we have a timeline on when the city will finish painting new lines to separate the lanes? Most people I see just drive down in the middle of what should be a two-lane street.

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Here are the other two intersections in question. Notice the wide turn lane with the suuuper wide turning radius paired with the tiny island.

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Here are the other two intersections in question. Notice the wide turn lane with the suuuper wide turning radius paired with the tiny island.

where is that first pic taken? i have never heard of Chili Dog Express... has anyone eaten there? is there anything about it over in the food forum? lol

4th and Hudson! They even have live music on the patio from time to time :)

where is that first pic taken? i have never heard of Chili Dog Express... has anyone eaten there? is there anything about it over in the food forum? lol

It is across from the Bus hub

4th and Hudson! They even have live music on the patio from time to time :)

good to know... i will be checking it out soon

It's tasty. I'm glad they're still in business, but wish they'd be open for dinner. I'd grab a dog on the way between getting off the bus and home.

Regarding the pedestrian refuges... I can't really can't speak on it or be willing to form much of an opinion until I see the trains function through these right hand turns.

A few observations... two of the turn lanes are in areas not addressed by Project 180. I suspect that the Hudson and 4th instersection's triangle is smaller due to their attempt to create space for the bike lane that is supposed to be reintroduced along 4th. I don't think any of that has been painted yet.

Another observation is that while these are completely salient points, our project has gone out of its way to correct bad sidewalks, ramps, crossings in areas that are not within P180 but still downtown. I regularly walk the sections of route being completed to inspect the project and have noted as a pedestrian the marvelous improvements being generated.

Whether the sweep lanes are a product of Public Works or our engineers, I will inquire. It was not brought forth as a separate item for discussion or approval. We have however had many conversations in our meetings about the right turns as many of them have required property acquisition which did require separate approvals for each scenario.

^^Thanks for the reply. I have been pleased with the fact that sidewalks/ada ramps etc outside P180 scope have been taken care of by the Streetcar project and overall I'm very happy with how everything is turning out. I'm only raising concerns about the pedestrian Islands and turn lanes bc I see a potential for danger that might not be thought about unless you are actually on the street walking around. If indeed these turn lanes do prove to be dangerous, it would be easy to slap some paint down making them streetcar lanes only, requiring cars to make a sharp right from the right most straight ahead lane rather than the wide turn yield lane.

I'm only raising concerns about the pedestrian Islands and turn lanes bc I see a potential for danger that might not be thought about unless you are actually on the street walking around. If indeed these turn lanes do prove to be dangerous, it would be easy to slap some paint down making them streetcar lanes only, requiring cars to make a sharp right from the right most straight ahead lane rather than the wide turn yield lane.

Yeah I get it. And quite frankly these issues really only come to the fore when a person actually walks or bikes the areas being discussed. I am not sure exactly what all the motivators at each one of these scenarios are other than train clearances. Again though, I suspect the bike lane is a factor in one of them.

All salient points though. It won't be long before vehicle testing commences on the alignments and perhaps some of these things can be further discussed and dialed in if need be.

I biked some of the tracks yesterday, noticed some low tree overhang on Hudson around 9th, where there looks to be some catanery wire? So will the city need to keep these areas trimmed back along the route?

Are you sure it wasn't Robinson and 9th? There are no tracks/wire at Hudson/9th, but I believe there's a big tree on Robinson by the brick building on the SWC of 9/Robinson.

I biked some of the tracks yesterday, noticed some low tree overhang on Hudson around 9th, where there looks to be some catanery wire? So will the city need to keep these areas trimmed back along the route?

Yes we will trim the trees.