flintysooner. Remind me when I name called anyone on this site. Not ONCE. Please find me one spot where i name called a person and i'll quickly apologize. I may have had a few choice words for the city counsel and our city leaders for their irresponsible decision to PUSH this MAPS3 to the citizens before addressing other MAJOR issues.

I have responded to some of the comments made by other posters. You like Doug hand pick what you don't think is appropriate. I've never seen you comment on anything "colorful" fellow YES voters have posted. It's not until someone gets their little feelings hurt with the way someone "expressed" their own point of view.

Know this. We are citizens of this city too. Whatever our job, we are citizens of the same community we live in. I'll let you know that any comment i've made is nothing compared to other citizens I've heard "colorfully" express their opinion of MAPS3 or the Mayor etc.. May you never hear them. You'll likely have a breakdown of some sort.

Also, I hold no ill feelings to any YES voter. Although, I'll never understand the vote given the very drastic con's to THIS maps at THIS time. Everyone has their own priorities. I feel certain that POLICE and FIRE are among most families top priorities in any city. The problem is for whatever reason "they can't see the forest for the trees". That's also the fault of our own Mayor, the Chamber, and many others who simply won't be honest with the public about what's really going on and what's really needed. They use their money to run ads that give a "pie in the sky" dream instead of telling the truth. Trust me I blame them more than any citizen. Citizens need to listen to BOTH sides of the issue. Then make an informed vote. Many on this site don't even want to hear the other side.
Don't get down on the opposing side too much. After December 8th, we will all be on the same side and in the same mess. Together. I'll be the i told you so. The city layoffs are coming. They won't be announced until after the vote. We'll lay off people because we are broke, but then we'll start building a Park and bike trails a few months later. Silly I think.
From the info I've seen. Many are starting to see the True "big picture". MAPS3 won't pass and i'm sorry most of the YES voters are in the minority.

Seriously MGE, PARAGRAPHS. It will vastly help in getting your points across, as more people will bother to read your posts.

This isn't a 'yes' voters picking on the 'no' voters thing. If that's what it was I wouldn't be giving you this advice at all, as following it will do nothing but improve your argument.

Resubmitted. If it really causes more readership, then it is worth my while. Thank you for being polite.

The defeat of this MAPS will generate growth as it should be from the bottom up, not as Mick would like it to be - from the top down
Exactly the problem with the whole thing. More worried about the TOP instead of the rest of the City. You see the TOP can afford private security etc... The bottom. Not so much. They depend of Police and Fire. Many of our citizens can't afford to watch a movie or dinner in Bricktown. They are struggling and they will be heard on December 8th.

At some point in every argument, someone has to become the victim. In this one it is the poor Yes voters, maligned and downtrodden, "why oh why should we be tortured so?"
I disagree with your premise on several levels. Why do you feel the presentation of your case has to be an argument? As nearly as I can tell from my reading of the posts on this forum there is widespread public support for improving Oklahoma City and that includes police, fire, and other services. It seems to me it is the police and firefighters that are argumentative.

Secondly it seems to me that a disagreement does not have to end in an argument and neither require a victim. And while I am there conceptually it seems to me it is the police and firefighters who view themselves as being victims.

Please remember that P.S. is still working their butts off every minute of every year with no regrets. This has nothing to do with the citizens.
I don't understand your reasoning at all. It is clear that posters from the ranks of the police and fire services have no respect at all for the Mayor and City Council members. Both the current and previous Mayors have been called liars and crooks. These are people who were elected to office by the citizens. And I do recall at least one post where someone made a statement about people needing to wake up. So it seems to me it is very much about the citizenry and their collective judgment in the political process.


Every last man or women in P.S. in whom the calling to serve is alive (this equates to most of them) is still doggedly working to provide that which the city promises its citizens - satisfactory safety. At every turn, in every negotiations the city has acted in bad faith, what is left? The question keeps coming up, what do we stand to gain from this fight against MIII? The answer is - a voice.
Respectfully it seems to me you want more than a voice. A voice indicates you want a place in determining the outcome. My reading indicates your side will be unsatisfied with any compromise and you are willing to risk defeating MAPS 3 to gain your total victory.


To council we are merely a service that they provide to citizens, and an expensive one. Disasters bring them to us in waves, shaking hands, and pats on the shoulders for heroism and valor and then we fade away and become just another expensive utility. Before you say that I'm playing the same victim card you did, don't. We will continue to take this job, and its shortcomings, because it offers us all a good living for our families and most importantly satisfaction, we are not sufferers or victims - we are advocates.
I don't see myself as a victim and have no idea what I have written to leave you with that impression. I think police and firefighters are wonderful people and tell them so every chance I get. No one likes to be unappreciated and no one likes to be taken for granted. I sympathize with your plight. I hope your contributions are better appreciated.


At any moment, we could be called into your home to solve a problem that is out of your scope of control. Your home, your private place that you pay for and want to keep safe - this is a very serious charge. Should we not be given a voice, because we are bestowed upon the trust of the communities we serve to protect, should we not advocate? How many strangers would you invite into your home to assist your naked grandmother out of the tub when she slips and falls and possibly breaks a hip, or for a full arrest to provide necessary cpr in under 4 minutes, or to put out an inferno in your living room whilst protecting furniture and property from further damage - not to mention life? How many strangers would you trust with your most contorted grief stricken time in your life to protect you and maintain the professionalism and care requisite for said event? And why would you want to thin out that service which is already showing its threads?
Again I think police and firefighters are wonderful people doing wonderful work. I am not against anyone. Rather I am in favor of MAPS 3 and I am in favor of police and firefighters.


MIII will pass, but not now. The money wants it, heck I would love a park to go see U2 in next time they visit, and trails to run on, but this MIII is provacative because it is trying to make positives from too many negatives. Anyone who says that they don't want MAPS is probably not a very friendly person. I think we all want MAPS and one day, when you as a citizen are taken care of by a city that takes is P.S. and Works seriously - it will pass. The defeat of maps will force the city to prioritize, to examine, to assess.
I support MAPS 3 and intend to vote for it. I see nothing that makes me believe the defeat of MAPS 3 will promote the needs of the police and firefighters.

The defeat of this MAPS will generate growth as it should be from the bottom up, not as Mick would like it to be - from the top down (impossible or at very least given the city's past record, highly unlikely.)
This makes no sense. You're against this proposal apparently because it is supported by the Mayor of Oklahoma City. Amazing argument to me.

I support MAPS 3 and intend to vote yes when the day soon arrives.

I support the police and firefighters. When a tangible measure is put forth in that regard I look forward to considering it.

The defeat of this MAPS will generate growth as it should be from the bottom up, not as Mick would like it to be - from the top down.

First of all, precisely what percentage of the "top" can afford private security or chooses to do so??? .00001%? The rest of us all have the same security, regardless of our income level.

And, I'd love to see the economic explanation of how growth is generated from the bottom up? Does that mean that the bottom grows? The bottom is the group we support with our taxes, with welfare, Medicaid, government subsidized housing. Or, are you suggesting that they'll inject more money into the economy that will help it grow if we don't pass MAPS? The bottom doesn't even have to pay the MAPS tax if it passes, as there's a rebate for people under a certain income level as well as the elderly. So, I'm having trouble with this concept.

Again and again and again. Those who are struggling need jobs. Do you honestly think it will help people more if they save $10 a month on MAPS taxes (those who actually have to pay the tax) or if there are more jobs available in the city? Precisely how does it help people if we don't continue improving our city? Does MAPS failing to pass create more jobs? Construction jobs will certainly not increase. A convention center twice the size of the one we have now will actually require more people are employed, and that includes janitors, wait staff, security (private), etc, in addition to the construction jobs created. A streetcar will require ticket takers and sellers, maintenance crews, etc. Growth in a city creates jobs and improves the economy, and I have an incredibly hard time seeing how failing to pass MAPS will create more growth than passing it.

There's no data that says we'll have more money to give to the police and firemen if MAPS doesn't pass, independent of a new vote for a bigger percentage of the permanent tax to go to you all, and there's now enough animosity that's been created that you may have shot yourselves in the foot if asking for the public to vote for more money for your departments.

flintysooner. Remind me when I name called anyone on this site. Not ONCE. Please find me one spot where i name called a person and i'll quickly apologize. I may have had a few choice words for the city counsel and our city leaders for their irresponsible decision to PUSH this MAPS3 to the citizens before addressing other MAJOR issues.
Name calling can be implicit. I think I pretty well understand your position regarding the Mayor and Council.

I have responded to some of the comments made by other posters. You like Doug hand pick what you don't think is appropriate. I've never seen you comment on anything "colorful" fellow YES voters have posted. It's not until someone gets their little feelings hurt with the way someone "expressed" their own point of view. My name should not be placed in the same sentence as Doug's. Usually I just read what others write on this forum. And there are very fine posters here with Doug being one of them.

I would prefer all sides in a discussion to be at least civil to one another.


Know this. We are citizens of this city too. Whatever our job, we are citizens of the same community we live in. I'll let you know that any comment i've made is nothing compared to other citizens I've heard "colorfully" express their opinion of MAPS3 or the Mayor etc.. May you never hear them. You'll likely have a breakdown of some sort.
But you are not here as a citizen so much as you are here as a member of the police or firefighters organizations as I understand it. You are advocating the official position of one or the other of those organizations as I understand it.

I doubt there's much you or anyone could say that I haven't heard. But thanks for being concerned about my well being.

Also, I hold no ill feelings to any YES voter. Although, I'll never understand the vote given the very drastic con's to THIS maps at THIS time. Everyone has their own priorities. I feel certain that POLICE and FIRE are among most families top priorities in any city. The problem is for whatever reason "they can't see the forest for the trees". That's also the fault of our own Mayor, the Chamber, and many others who simply won't be honest with the public about what's really going on and what's really needed. They use their money to run ads that give a "pie in the sky" dream instead of telling the truth. Trust me I blame them more than any citizen. Citizens need to listen to BOTH sides of the issue. Then make an informed vote.
I think you may hold ill feelings towards me regardless of what you say.

I think I've listened to the arguments on both sides. I started out against MAPS 3 but changed to favor it after due consideration.

Many on this site don't even want to hear the other side.
That does seem to be true except you and I probably disagree about which side is disinterested in hearing the other.


Don't get down on the opposing side too much. After December 8th, we will all be on the same side and in the same mess. Together. I'll be the i told you so. The city layoffs are coming. They won't be announced until after the vote. We'll lay off people because we are broke, but then we'll start building a Park and bike trails a few months later. Silly I think.
From the info I've seen. Many are starting to see the True "big picture". MAPS3 won't pass and i'm sorry most of the YES voters are in the minority.
I understand your position and your concern. I just disagree with you about MAPS 3.

A streetcar will require ticket takers and sellers, maintenance crews, etc.
A street car is one of the most money losing projects! LOL

Or, are you suggesting that they'll inject more money into the economy that will help it grow if we don't pass MAPS?
Are you suggesting that by NOT passing this maps our economy will not grow? Our city is doomed?

here's now enough animosity that's been created that you may have shot yourselves in the foot if asking for the public to vote for more money for your departments.
The Police Department is not MINE. It's not yours. It's ours. I doubt we've shot ourselves in the foot. My guess and my experience so far is quite the opposite. Citizens truly know the shortages and problems with their Police and Fire Departments. Not that you evidently care because your priorities lie some in "bike trails", but you didn't know any of the information until now. It wasn't the way we wanted citizens to find out what's going on, but i'm glad they know now.

[Respectfully it seems to me you want more than a voice. A voice indicates you want a place in determining the outcome. My reading indicates your side will be unsatisfied with any compromise and you are willing to risk defeating MAPS 3 to gain your total victory.]

Why is it that this pro-MIII community is so quick to persue this "P.S. as vindictive" stance? We have tried to maintain amicable relations with the city at every negotiation. We don't win them all you know, and it would be foolish of us to take this measure yearly just to get what we want. As established in my previous post, who is more trustworthy than P.S.?

Is Mick simply because at some point he, a local celebrity, was voted in by someone? Have his ties not been called into question in times past? Perhaps the media is more equitable, surely unbiased, or is OPUBCO tied up in these politics to such a degree that Oklahoma City citizens cannot get fair news? If any MAPS initiative is to come into question, shouldn't it be the MAPS intitiative that fell on the heels of the Bass Pro Debacle? (We the people being the heels in question.)

Compromise has long since passed. The city could have made amends long ago, and could have provided good faith negotiations that would have rendered this debate moot, the chose not to. They chose unwisely.

I do appreciate your comments about P.S. Every P.S. employee knows whose opinions count, and from whom our checks are cut.

As far as liars and crooks, I think that politicians might suffice. You'll say that of course politicians politic, I say why don't we expect more, ask for a change in ballot language at very least.

I'm suggesting our economy will grow at a slower rate, and I think that it's extremely unlikely I am wrong about that. Our city is far from perfect. I wouldn't be living here if I didn't get stuck here and had it grow on me. But, having lived in Minneapolis, Chicago, Denver, and spent time in virtually every major city in the US, I know what we don't have and what we need, and how we compare to some of the cities that are considered great. It's not necessarily doomed, but, if other cities continue to improve while we make no attempt to do so, we fall even farther behind. How can that be a good thing?

Again, yes you've made people aware of problems with the police department. But, you've also made people aware that you're opposing something that many of them want, and for what I consider the wrong reasons. You've got a battle going with city government, and you don't care if that battle diffuses out into the general population, or how it affects the city.

My priorities include anything that makes this city a better place in which to live. That doesn't rule out the police or fire departments. I honestly believe both needs can be satisfied. Your position seems to be that only your departments are important, and that improving the city is of no concern.

As far as liars and crooks, I think that politicians might suffice.Surely you do not really believe that all politicians are liars and crooks.

This "us versus them" attitude does not serve anyone very well.

Betts

The private security issue was not from my post.

My "bottom - up" comment was speaking toward public works and public safety, things that this city operates on daily yet negotiates around yearly.

Look, the debate is not on economic growth. Mick hopes to drag that into the argument, its a rope to which he can cling so as not to fall deeper into the hole he dug when he got sideways with fundamental departments as they pertain to city living standards.

To whom are these jobs going? Will we deal exclusively with Oklahoma City vendors, OkC contractors? If not then economic impact will be years in the making, which I get, but by that time business should probably be rebounding anyway. I don't think we are going to save the victims of the recession with jobs in construction.

Surely you do not really believe that all politicians are liars and crooks.

This "us versus them" attitude does not serve anyone very well.

Politicians are politicians. Just like lawyers are lawyers, firemen are firemen so on and so on....

What gets me is the level of absolute trust that you choose to divulge to a person ,or people, who pandered to get where they got. Why don't you call them out? We are. We're regular guys who are putting in the good fight. Where are you? We are proud to serve, and our popularity rests not with people who earn our favors, but by people who depend on services of which they are ill equipped to provide for themselves. Why does it have to be greed that motivates us? Why not just common good?

Betts

Again, I think that you would be hard pressed to find a firefighter/police officer who wouldn't jump at the chance to have a go at those whitecaps at the aquatic center, who wouldn't love to bike or run down miles of trails, who wouldn't attend the sundry offerings that a central park could offer. We will not loose momentum as the city claims, if we the people ask them to take back their offer and add to it the priorities this city deserves.

Actually, I suspect most of the contractors will be Oklahoma City contractors. Yes, the growth will be years in the making, but isn't that what we hope for our city.....that we will continue to grow and improve over time? Rome wasn't built in a day, but it takes careful planning and looking ahead to make sure that the building doesn't suddenly stop.

And, what precisely are the MAPS projects if not public works? "Public works are the construction or engineering projects carried out by the state on behalf of the community.", so they seem to apply. Public safety, while important, is not going to grow the economy on it's own.

The debate IS partly regarding economic growth. It's multi-factorial. People who are MAPS proponents want to make this a more enjoyable city in which to live, they want to make it a more attractive city in which to live, they want to make it a city attractive to people looking for a place to relocate. They want people here interviewing for a job to not rule it out based on the above (which happened frequently pre-MAPS, in my experience). We want visitors to come here and enjoy the experience and perhaps want to come back. We're not a city on anyone's bucket list, I suspect, but I would hope that when people come here to visit or interview, they consider it a place they could live or a place they could revisit. I see MAPS as a way to continuing to move forward, to make that a more and more probable thing.

Betts

Again, I think that you would be hard pressed to find a firefighter/police officer who wouldn't jump at the chance to have a go at those whitecaps at the aquatic center, who wouldn't love to bike or run down miles of trails, who wouldn't attend the sundry offerings that a central park could offer. We will not loose momentum as the city claims, if we the people ask them to take back their offer and add to it the priorities this city deserves.

But, MGE, this is a temporary tax. In fact, isn't that one of the reasons why your union turned down the offer of using the use tax to add some of the jobs you all wanted, (recognizing not all of them), because it was temporary?

Any tax for firefighters and police, if it is to give you what you want, is going to have to be a permanent tax. By definition, every MAPS proposal is temporary. So, you are going to have to have completely separate legislation to gain "the priorities this city deserves".

If you have problems with the MAPS proposals as they stand, I see that as a separate and completely unrelated issue. But that's not what I'm hearing from you.

Politicians are politicians. Just like lawyers are lawyers, firemen are firemen so on and so on....

What gets me is the level of absolute trust that you choose to divulge to a person ,or people, who pandered to get where they got. Why don't you call them out? We are. We're regular guys who are putting in the good fight. Where are you? We are proud to serve, and our popularity rests not with people who earn our favors, but by people who depend on services of which they are ill equipped to provide for themselves. Why does it have to be greed that motivates us? Why not just common good?
I assume you mean invest maybe instead of "divulge" and I guess you are referring to the Mayor, Council members, and other leaders.

I don't invest absolute trust in any of them nor do I invest similar confidence in your side. It appears to me that both sides have something to gain from this battle and I should be duly suspicious of each. Still I am quite ready to hear both sides and if I get a chance to vote on something or make my opinion known about it I will. But the next question I am voting on is about MAPS 3.

As you've phrased the post you are accusing me of being naive; an irregular guy which I think means of greater income than you; someone not putting up a good fight; someone afraid to speak my mind; someone unwilling to serve; and, someone who is greedy and uninterested in the common good.

And all of that because I support MAPS 3 and you don't.

Also the post is accusing the leadership of being panderers.

Not one single portion of this post advances your position one bit and if I were prone to be emotional about such things it would irritate me.

Flinty

You are probably right, I was using divulge as a placekeeper and didn't properly edit before I sent.

I stand squarely on my affirmation that of course a politician should be first and foremost suspect because of the title he/she holds.

If you don't, no skin off my back, carry on. Seriously though, you read too much into the rest. I am not labeling you anything, save for obstinate, and well probably naive,
and as to your shape I cannot definitively say.

I might say this regardless of your stance on MIII.

Why should I not call leaders panderers? Theirs is a job to kiss as much of the public's nethers as possible to promote their agendas. Probably not all, but certainly this last couple of batches.

When they get voted out they'll move on to the inner circle where the money is really made, pulling the strings, as if public office were just some Narnian fantasy.

Exactly the problem with the whole thing. More worried about the TOP instead of the rest of the City. You see the TOP can afford private security etc... The bottom. Not so much. They depend of Police and Fire. Many of our citizens can't afford to watch a movie or dinner in Bricktown. They are struggling and they will be heard on December 8th.

I'm sure many will be fired up about the possibility of increasing their income by a whopping 10 bucks a month

17 days and counting, and there's never a good 2 week vacation around when you could use one.
:LolLolLol

17 days and counting, and there's never a good 2 week vacation around when you could use one.
:LolLolLol

Hell yes! December 9th can't get here soon enough. I'll being voting yes on Maps3 and hope that it passes, but I can see the issue that some here are having.

I deal with many poverty stricken people on a weekly basis. Many, if not all of the projects in this proposal mean absolutely nothing to them because they are simply out of the realm of their financial or cultural state of being. I've spoken to many "east siders" and for the most part they want no part of a Maps3. This is mainly because it's hard for them to pinpoint the exact benefits that they received from the two previous packages. Yeah, the city obviously prospered, but they don't feel like it has penetrated the area east of I-235 and north of I-40.

Out of respect, I do not attempt to change their minds. After all, I'm not living their experience. I'm working VERY hard, and I've been blessed as a result. I'm fortunate and buy what I want when I want. However, since I grew up in a similar fashion, I can understand them being somewhat jaded.

As I said, I'm voting yes for Maps3 and will make no apologies for it. However, I won't pretend that my yes vote is because I care soooo much for this city and want it to prosper and be a beacon of light for the......whatever. I want the park. Period. I think it'll be cool to have a big ass park in the middle of the city. Period. I voted yes last year for the Ford Center because I wanted an NBA team. Nothing more and nothing less. Many of my friends on the northeast side and elsewhere can't afford tickets. That's fine I thought. I'll go to the games, and they can watch on TV. I voted yes. This doesn't make me a bad person it makes me human. I'd do anything for them, but I voted yes for me. We all did...do...will.

I'd support a tax or funding increase for public safety in a heartbeat. I'll do that regardless of the outcome of this vote. Not because of the FOP or the Fire Union, but simply because it's the right thing to do. The only thing that bothers me about the PS side is the sense of righteousness that abounds in their speech. Please just be real. I was aware that you guys and girls run into burning houses, but I wasn't aware that your point of origin is a burning bush. Some of you are really going overboard on wanting everyone to assume that your motive is flawless when it's gray at best. We know that because that's the best any of us can do. Please stop with the martyr bit. It's not necessary.

The PS people have a gripe. That fact can't be denied. The Maps3 coalition has a point. That can't be denied. Nobody is "right" here. Right is relative. Any adult should know this. We all want what we want because we get something out of it. In some form the outcome will stroke the ego of one side or the other.

Maps3 is about growing the city and making it look better to outsiders. It's about vanity and about getting other cities to cast envious glances our way(oops, I mean the city's way). Maps3 isn't going to change lives and that's ok. Nobody has said that it would.

In like manner, the police and fire unions should stop acting like they work solely for the benefit of others. They respond to crime and emergencies but they don't prevent them. They can patrol an area an scare off some crimes, but they don't change the will of the people who wanted to do so. And the people they scare away don't run out of respect, they run because they're afraid of getting caught.

I respect our public safety workers, but not a drop more that I respect anyone else. Not half a drop. I'll support any measure to further your/our cause, but it'll have nothing to do with Maps3. I'll do it out of respect for you as a person. Not a cop. Not a fireman. Not an OKCitian. As for my admiration...If you're going to allude to Judas and Jesus, carry the analogy out a little further. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other. Be meek. Be lowly. Be as soft as a dove. Be slow to anger. Be a maker of peace. Stop jumping in and out of character. That's the giveaway that you're acting or at best attempting to play a role. You can't be a smart ass and claim to "Fight the Good Fight". Nobody hates you guys and you know it. We're just ALL selfish and sometimes we bump heads. That's life.

As for my admiration...If you're going to allude to Judas and Jesus, carry the analogy
WHAT???? Who said PS were next to Jesus? I must have missed that.

Stop jumping in and out of character. That's the giveaway that you're acting or at best attempting to play a role. You can't be a smart ass and claim to "Fight the Good Fight".
Using sarcasm makes you not a good policemen or fireman?

Maps3 is about growing the city and making it look better to outsiders. It's about vanity and about getting other cities to cast envious glances our way(oops, I mean the city's way). Maps3 isn't going to change lives and that's ok. Nobody has said that it would.
Maybe you should take some time reading the rest of the posts. Do us a favor and do that. ok.

I respect our public safety workers, but not a drop more that I respect anyone else.
That's another thread. No problem. I always did give them a little respect. I always thought their job was a special one and required a special commitment not only from them but their families but Ok. I fell the same for our troops and their families, but no problem. I know they don't do the job for that reason...I can honestly say you, thankfully, are in the minority...

We're just ALL selfish and sometimes we bump heads. That's life.
Speak for yourself. You act as if we want some sort of "personal" gain from this. Let me be very honest with you. I do a good job despite the bull I put up with in this current political game we're in or despite how unappreciative SOME of our citizens are. Despite what I put up with on a daily basis...blah blah blah.
There is no "personal" gain for me like some others with this MAPS3. Make no mistake. I'll be FINE! I could stick my head in the clouds and the only person suffering is JOHN Q Public(that's you) . The shortage of personnel will affect him more than me. A few tragic "incidents" will raise a few eyebrows. Unfortunately, an "incident" means someone will most likely get hurt or possibly killed to prove the point. That I don't want on my hands.

I'll just be responsible for covering the Man or Woman I work next too. I'll do whatever it takes to make sure we take care of each other. Lack of Manpower causes fireman and policeman to be put in a little more jeopardy that's what all of us dislike. The calls aren't the problem. The volume by itself isn't the problem.
Lack of personnel makes officers have to take care of calls short handed. It's all dangerous. That's what they get paid for, but it makes it a little more unsafe for officers and citizens. Officers get hurt more often as do fireman with less personnel to help. Let me tell what's tempting. To just forget about it and let the whole situation play itself out. If i didn't have a conscience or feel a sense of duty. I'd do just that! Lucky you!

But I agree. December 9th can't get her soon enough.

Iron, I respect the fire that you have for this situation. It seems that you genuinely want to see the best result come to pass for all involved. The manner in which you express those desires is abrasive at times, but that's what happens when you care. I don't at all want the Public Safety officials in this city to feel as if they aren't appreciated by the public that they serve. However, I won't allow myself to be labeled as an anarchist to reason and sensible civil responsibility simply because I'm in favor of Maps3.

The job that the police and fire do is special and I do believe that it is a calling. I believe that only a select number of our populace can do it and do it well. I view them in the same way that I view our armed services. They are special and they do indeed make a difference. I do not believe that the job that they do is any more vital to the common man than the work that numerous people of many vocations and volunteer capacities perform every day. That includes doctors, nurses etc. Many, many people offer thankless and vital service to millions of people daily...just like the police and fire do. You are not alone in the fight.

I also hold responsible parents, concerned grandparents, loving siblings, good friends and a number of other sects in high regard. I believe that we should/must support people who aspire to do what's best for others. I also respect people who are doing the best that they can with what they have. Even if the end result isn't what was hoped for, if they give their best I'm satisfied until I can do more to change it with them. That's why I don't hold any objection to you feeling the way you do about this Maps proposal and I would never attempt to change your mind. How disrespectful would that be? I haven't walked in your shoes. I haven't lived your experiences. I would never. You should consider returning the favor. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel the same way that you do. I spend the better part of my time attempting to help those that I know need my assitance. I won't go into details, but we need help too. I don't know how we're going to get our funding. Grants? Who knows, but were far past cutbacks.

I've read some of your posts. They sound like the posts of a man who cares deeply about the cause that he believes in. It bothers me that you and others seem to feel that you're unappreciated. You are not. When I say we're all selfish I am speaking for myself and my kind. Our kind. Your cause may be noble but it is NOT perfect. I've made it perfectly clear that I'm not a head in the sand carrier of the Maps gospel. I've seen too many people who have been totally overlooked to act like it's too far beyond an ego boost and a beauty contest.

As I'm sure you know, your vote on December 8th is an indicator of you convictions, but you still bear the responsibility of living your convictions from day to day. I believe that you do that. I believe that andy does that and so on. I also believe that Betts does that...and Doug...and Patric...and Mid...etc. I simply detest seeing people being mischaracterized and misunderstood because of their passion. If you view voting NO on this Maps3 as being a part of your civic and moral duty, I wouldn't want you to vote yes even if it meant that you unilateraly could decide the matter alone. I respect and support you because I think that you support all of us. Flaws and all. Public servents support us all. We support you and my voting yes for Maps3 does not make me incapable of charity of good will. Understand that I'm not arguing with you. I haven't studied your posts and aren't interested in point counter point. That's not who I am. You're going to follow your convictions and I'm gonna follow mine.

In the end we're all going to be okay. I'm hoping that everyone trapped in a burning building is saved. I'm hoping that every officer who leaves his family in the morning returns home safely. I'm hoping that every soldier returns safely from their tour. I'm hoping that the kids that my wife and I sponser at Big Brother Big Sister don't accept the lie that people's treatment of them is indicative of their worth. I'm hoping that people do what they believe is right. I'm hoping that people retire from thinking that their right is the only right. It can't be. Life is too subjective and history has proven that not to be the case. I honestly am hoping for all of those things and I'm hoping for a park downtown as well. If I'm told on December 8th that I can't have the park I'm going to vote for it again the next chance I get. I'm also going to vote that our safety patrols get everything that they need. It just so happens that IMO a Maps3 approval doesn't mean the end to the possibility of that need being met.

Nevertheless, I've had too many real problems to loose sleep over Maps3. I'm hoping that we can all eventually get everything that we need so that we can get to needing more all over again. Good night. Going to Bricktown and although I won't be looking over my shoulder while thanking God for the Bricktown substation I appreciate the cops that are there just in case some tipsy dork tries to pinch my wife's ass. :elmer3:


Gino Guest

I am not labeling you anything, save for obstinate, and well probably naive, and as to your shape I cannot definitively say.
Actually you did. Let me remind you of what you wrote specifically with emphasis added by me:
What gets me is the level of absolute trust that you choose to divulge to a person ,or people, who pandered to get where they got. Why don't you call them out? We are. We're regular guys who are putting in the good fight. Where are you? We are proud to serve, and our popularity rests not with people who earn our favors, but by people who depend on services of which they are ill equipped to provide for themselves. Why does it have to be greed that motivates us? Why not just common good?
That first sentence is where you call me naive. I think I've not been called naive before although I have been called idealistic. Really I think this label is inappropriate but I can understand why you might think the way you do.

The second and third sentences you claim moral superiority in the area of bravery. I've had many people claim moral superiority and mostly they were. I think I'm willing to concede the point that police and firefighters in general are braver than I am. Still I think that my comparative cowardice does not negate my position nor does your heroic status automatically affirm yours.

It's the fourth sentence where you claim to be "regular guys" and the fifth is where you assert I'm not. I don't know what that means specifically. I thought it might refer to people who either earn more than you do, or have more than you do materially, or completed more education than you've had or all three. I wasn't really sure. Now that I understand it has to do with shape I'm having to reflect more on the implication. I'm definitely irregularly shaped so it may well be an appropriate label. I'm not sure what it has to do with MAPS 3 but I'm going to think about it.

As for the rest I definitely do not serve. I am not particularly greedy and I've been told more than once that in my case it is not a virtue. I think passing MAPS 3 does more for the common good than defeating it but that's where we disagree.


I might say this regardless of your stance on MIII. I'm just guessing but I bet you think your position is principled whereas mine is merely obstinate.


Why should I not call leaders panderers? Theirs is a job to kiss as much of the public's nethers as possible to promote their agendas. Probably not all, but certainly this last couple of batches.

When they get voted out they'll move on to the inner circle where the money is really made, pulling the strings, as if public office were just some Narnian fantasy.
I think that's very sad.

"Narnian" seems inappropriate as a label for the public office fantasy. In Narnia it is always good that triumphs in the end. In your fantasy it seems evil triumphs.

Iron, I respect the fire that you have for this situation. It seems that you genuinely want to see the best result come to pass for all involved. The manner in which you express those desires is abrasive at times, but that's what happens when you care. I don't at all want the Public Safety officials in this city to feel as if they aren't appreciated by the public that they serve. However, I won't allow myself to be labeled as an anarchist to reason and sensible civil responsibility simply because I'm in favor of Maps3.

The job that the police and fire do is special and I do believe that it is a calling. I believe that only a select number of our populace can do it and do it well. I view them in the same way that I view our armed services. They are special and they do indeed make a difference. I do not believe that the job that they do is any more vital to the common man than the work that numerous people of many vocations and volunteer capacities perform every day. That includes doctors, nurses etc. Many, many people offer thankless and vital service to millions of people daily...just like the police and fire do. You are not alone in the fight.

I also hold responsible parents, concerned grandparents, loving siblings, good friends and a number of other sects in high regard. I believe that we should/must support people who aspire to do what's best for others. I also respect people who are doing the best that they can with what they have. Even if the end result isn't what was hoped for, if they give their best I'm satisfied until I can do more to change it with them. That's why I don't hold any objection to you feeling the way you do about this Maps proposal and I would never attempt to change your mind. How disrespectful would that be? I haven't walked in your shoes. I haven't lived your experiences. I would never. You should consider returning the favor. If I were in your shoes, I'd probably feel the same way that you do. I spend the better part of my time attempting to help those that I know need my assitance. I won't go into details, but we need help too. I don't know how we're going to get our funding. Grants? Who knows, but were far past cutbacks.

I've read some of your posts. They sound like the posts of a man who cares deeply about the cause that he believes in. It bothers me that you and others seem to feel that you're unappreciated. You are not. When I say we're all selfish I am speaking for myself and my kind. Our kind. Your cause may be noble but it is NOT perfect. I've made it perfectly clear that I'm not a head in the sand carrier of the Maps gospel. I've seen too many people who have been totally overlooked to act like it's too far beyond an ego boost and a beauty contest.

As I'm sure you know, your vote on December 8th is an indicator of you convictions, but you still bear the responsibility of living your convictions from day to day. I believe that you do that. I believe that andy does that and so on. I also believe that Betts does that...and Doug...and Patric...and Mid...etc. I simply detest seeing people being mischaracterized and misunderstood because of their passion. If you view voting NO on this Maps3 as being a part of your civic and moral duty, I wouldn't want you to vote yes even if it meant that you unilateraly could decide the matter alone. I respect and support you because I think that you support all of us. Flaws and all. Public servents support us all. We support you and my voting yes for Maps3 does not make me incapable of charity of good will. Understand that I'm not arguing with you. I haven't studied your posts and aren't interested in point counter point. That's not who I am. You're going to follow your convictions and I'm gonna follow mine.

In the end we're all going to be okay. I'm hoping that everyone trapped in a burning building is saved. I'm hoping that every officer who leaves his family in the morning returns home safely. I'm hoping that every soldier returns safely from their tour. I'm hoping that the kids that my wife and I sponser at Big Brother Big Sister don't accept the lie that people's treatment of them is indicative of their worth. I'm hoping that people do what they believe is right. I'm hoping that people retire from thinking that their right is the only right. It can't be. Life is too subjective and history has proven that not to be the case. I honestly am hoping for all of those things and I'm hoping for a park downtown as well. If I'm told on December 8th that I can't have the park I'm going to vote for it again the next chance I get. I'm also going to vote that our safety patrols get everything that they need. It just so happens that IMO a Maps3 approval doesn't mean the end to the possibility of that need being met.

Nevertheless, I've had too many real problems to loose sleep over Maps3. I'm hoping that we can all eventually get everything that we need so that we can get to needing more all over again. Good night. Going to Bricktown and although I won't be looking over my shoulder while thanking God for the Bricktown substation I appreciate the cops that are there just in case some tipsy dork tries to pinch my wife's ass. :elmer3:


Gino Guest

namaste.

The citizens of OKC should take a close look how they compare to the national standards in relation to crime trends. Check out the following link:
Oklahoma City Crime Statistics (OK) - CityRating.com (http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Oklahoma+City&state=OK)

I can't help thinking that a few more police officers might have effected these ratings. But the City leadership seems to have more important things to put the citizens money toward. More links are provided at www.okcissues.com

The citizens of OKC should take a close look how they compare to the national standards in relation to crime trends. Check out the following link:
Oklahoma City Crime Statistics (OK) - CityRating.com (http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Oklahoma+City&state=OK)

I can't help thinking that a few more police officers might have effected these ratings. But the City leadership seems to have more important things to put the citizens money toward. More links are provided at www.okcissues.com

Unless the OCPD expects to be in every living room or bedroom or hotel room, how do you propose increasing troops to respond after the fact will reduce the crime rate?

you brought up a very god point with 100sq miles orwhatever that 1 police oficer has to cover. they may not ne densly populated bu do you remember what happened in march of this year? remember those wildfires that destroyed numerous homes in 3 cities. did they ever say how many homes where lost in okc areas? i cant remember that fact but did you see the amount of fire equipment and personal that was out there protecting the less populated part of the city just because there was a need and citizen who needed help. lots of them. not only was that going on but inside the city they had many house fres along with the regular medical calls. I promise that even the police will respond out there in numbers when something happenes. so less force on both fire and police hurt the general good of the poeple.

both departments are there for your own good and to protect you and serve you. why cant you think that maybe we should help those guys whim day in day out help us with any question of problem we have. Both department members realize that maps 3 projects would be great and would vote for it if things were different like what man people have ben saying.

Citizens neither department really asks for much from their ctizens. sure you might see a fireman holding a boot collecting money but 100% of that man goes to jerry's kids. it does not go into the department.

Police and fire are asking for you guys to think of them and stand with them as they serve you, stand with them to show the city that the citizens care about our police and fire and that the city needs to look at what the city NEEDS rather than wants. I am personally getting kind of bored with this forum because it is the same arguments over and over. I just ask that you stand with us on this issue and help the people who are there to help you 24/7 rain or shine.

like other workers in the nation most of the firemen who are at risk for getting thier jobs cut have families to support. sure people lose their jobs but why should they lose it so that a park and other wants of certain high paying people want to have but dont need it. i am not asing sympathy just saying, anyone who loses thier jb i feel sorry for, so why are you risking families to be hurting because we want to build a park.
like others said the use tax runs out june 31 2011 with those 10 "promised" and not even mentioning the amount of people that are possibly going to retire in jan.

Once again look out for those people that look out for you and vote no this time.

National standards include sleepy little towns of 20,000 people. If you look at other cities the crime rates for OKC look comparable at worst. I specifically looked at the smaller NBA cities, and Kansas City, as I consider them about as comparable to us as you can get, and we looked fairly good, actually.

you brought up a very god point with 100sq miles orwhatever that 1 police oficer has to cover.

I noticed the letter stating that fact in the Oklahoma Gazette. It wasn't clear precisely what was being referred to, as the numbers don't add up. Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile. Now, obviously people have to have time off. Not counting vacations, there are about 4 40 hour shifts a week, which brings the math up to 1 police officer per 2.3 square miles or so. I'm not going to do the math to factor in vacations, but it probably puts you up, at most, to 1 officer per 4 square miles. Even if you had half of your officers in administrative positions, we're talking one officer per 8 square miles.

For one officer to have to cover 100 square miles, we'd have to have a force of about 35 officers or so, or 70 if half were administrative.

What concerns me about this entire thread is the outright disrespect for and anger towards the citizens of Oklahoma City by the police and firefighter posters.

I can understand negotiating tactics, labor dissatisfaction with management, and various other situations where emotions run hot. But this thread to me presents the police and firefighters as seeing the very people they are supposed to protect and serve as the enemy.

Berating people like Doug and Betts and Patrick and a good many other members of the forum is not going to win many converts and it seems to me a trend.

There is a notable exception.

andy157 has been patient, reasonable, and consistently cogent in presenting the position he supports and it is apparent to me that his concern is for the well being of the citizens as well as the police and firefighters.

Others by and large to me lean to hysterical bullying, uncontrolled outbursts of anger, name calling, and personal attacks. The possibility of having to depend upon such individuals for assistance in time of need is not reassuring to me.

On the merits of the question of need by police and firefighters I am more persuaded by andy157 than I am by the bullying. I would like to hear the other side as I have lived long enough to know there undoubtedly is one.

I don't like the organized opposition of MAPS 3 by the unions but I won't hold it against them either if the chance arises later to do something about the staffing and other issue presented by andy157.

Flintysooner, thanks for your comments. I do try to be all of those things, I am concerned, and I do care about both sides, of course sometimes I fail. This situation is so tangled with emotions, passions, egos and agendas it is virtually impossible for the two sides to stay grounded and remain humble.

The events that lead up to their actions are extreamly convoluted, and hard to explain, and even harder for some to understand.

The inner workings of this City are no different today than they were 50 years ago. Whats different is, for me anyway, is that in the last ten years I've been able to see how things work and what goes on in City Government. At least right or wrong, I believe I have, and frankly, as a citizen I don't like a lot of what I've seen.

Isn't there a saying, something to the effect that, you can't fight City Hall. Well, and again, right or wrong, you can and they can make it tuff. It's to bad this fight has spilled out into the streets. Dec. the 9th can not get her fast enough.

Flintysooner, thanks for your comments. I do try to be all of those things, I am concerned, and I do care about both sides, of course sometimes I fail. This situation is so tangled with emotions, passions, egos and agendas it is virtually impossible for the two sides to stay grounded and remain humble.

The events that lead up to their actions are extreamly convoluted, and hard to explain, and even harder for some to understand.

The inner workings of this City are no different today than they were 50 years ago. Whats different is, for me anyway, is that in the last ten years I've been able to see how things work and what goes on in City Government. At least right or wrong, I believe I have, and frankly, as a citizen I don't like a lot of what I've seen.

Isn't there a saying, something to the effect that, you can't fight City Hall. Well, and again, right or wrong, you can and they can make it tuff. It's to bad this fight has spilled out into the streets. Dec. the 9th can not get her fast enough.

The sad thing is, regardless of which side "wins", Oklahoma City loses. The streets are not the place for this battle. And, December 9th will make nothing go away. MAPS losing won't put a penny in the pockets of the police and fire departments, and actually, would likely result in less than if MAPS passes. The bad blood it will generate between your departments and city government will do nothing to advance your cause, as far as I can tell, and that bad blood may well extend into "the streets". I sincerely think it's a potentially lose-lose situaton for you all.

I don't know how to make it a win-win. I suspect neither side is willing to compromise enough to make it work, despite all the public protestations, but if you don't find common ground, everyone suffers.

It can not get HERE fast enough either.

The sad thing is, regardless of which side "wins", Oklahoma City loses. The streets are not the place for this battle. And, December 9th will make nothing go away. MAPS losing won't put a penny in the pockets of the police and fire departments, and actually, would likely result in less than if MAPS passes. The bad blood it will generate between your departments and city government will do nothing to advance your cause, as far as I can tell, and that bad blood may well extend into "the streets". I sincerely think it's a potentially lose-lose situaton for you all.

I don't know how to make it a win-win. I suspect neither side is willing to compromise enough to make it work, despite all the public protestations, but if you don't find common ground, everyone suffers.

Betts, I'm quite sure that what I am about to say will be viewed by some as biased, jaded, egotistic, self serving or what ever. Nevertheless. The Administration and the Management of this City were presented with a legitimate problem concerning staffing issues within the F.D. (I can't speak to anything else).

They were also presented with fair, honest, and just solutions. Even though they stand on the steps of City Hall and say they were not.

Did they have a financial impact on the City's budget? Yes they did. Everything that happens in this City has an impact. But they were minimal, and even in this time of sluggish revenues they were workable. Even though they're quoted in the paper telling you they were not.

The problem could have been fixed. They could have fixed it. They were not interested in doing so. This issue could have been resolved. They chose not to.

Betts, I'm quite sure that what I am about to say will be viewed by some as biased, jaded, egotistic, self serving or what ever. Nevertheless. The Administration and the Management of this City were presented with a legitimate problem concerning staffing issues within the F.D. (I can't speak to anything else).

They were also presented with fair, honest, and just solutions. Even though they stand on the steps of City Hall and say they were not.

Did they have a financial impact on the City's budget? Yes they did. Everything that happens in this City has an impact. But they were minimal, and even in this time of sluggish revenues they were workable. Even though they're quoted in the paper telling you they were not.

The problem could have been fixed. They could have fixed it. They were not interested in doing so. This issue could have been resolved. They chose not to.

I understand what you are saying, although I've yet to see a disagreement like this where one side is giving 100% and the other nothing. Not saying your department wasn't the more flexible one, because I'm not privy to any of that information, but there are almost always some arguments to support each side of an issue.

That's not my point. My point is that the battle with the city does spill over into its citizens and, in my opinion, in a very big way. I don't think that's fair to us, either. To me, it indicates self-interest on the part of your departments. MAPS should stand alone. Your needs should stand alone. I think the arguments linking them are not strong enough to justify doing it.

All of us take jobs that are imperfect. Right now, I'm awake because I'm in the middle of a 15 day, 24 hour a day, no days off shift, and I've been getting phone calls. I don't get the next 15 days after that off, I just go back to working my regular day job, with an occasional weekend call thrown in for good measure. I don't get paid any overtime for these middle of the night hours. Fair? I don't think about fair or unfair. Those are the terms of the job, and I took the job. I have the option to quit, as does everyone who has any job. But, at least we have one. There are a lot of people out there who would be thrilled to have your job or mine and have none. Unfair is better than unemployment.

I understand what you are saying, although I've yet to see a disagreement like this where one side is giving 100% and the other nothing. Not saying your department wasn't the more flexible one, because I'm not privy to any of that information, but there are almost always some arguments to support each side of an issue.

That's not my point. My point is that the battle with the city does spill over into its citizens and, in my opinion, in a very big way. I don't think that's fair to us, either. To me, it indicates self-interest on the part of your departments. MAPS should stand alone. Your needs should stand alone. I think the arguments linking them are not strong enough to justify doing it.

All of us take jobs that are imperfect. Right now, I'm awake because I'm in the middle of a 15 day, 24 hour a day, no days off shift, and I've been getting phone calls. I don't get the next 15 days after that off, I just go back to working my regular day job, with an occasional weekend call thrown in for good measure. I don't get paid any overtime for these middle of the night hours. Fair? I don't think about fair or unfair. Those are the terms of the job, and I took the job. I have the option to quit, as does everyone who has any job. But, at least we have one. There are a lot of people out there who would be thrilled to have your job or mine and have none. Unfair is better than unemployment.The City wasn't giving 100%. If thats how you took it then I didn't do a very good job of explaining.

The City wasn't giving 100%. If thats how you took it then I didn't do a very good job of explaining.

Not meaning to imply that at all. What I was actually implying was that, even if your side was being more flexible, I doubt you were giving 100%. There has to be flexibility on both sides for a compromise to be reached, and I've simply usually found in such situations that there is still some selfishness on both sides. Both sides make their sound good, but the truth is almost always somewhere in between.

Flinty

I want to make one thing very clear. I do not think myself better, nor braver, nor more anything than anyone else. I as well as other PS personnel simply have the training and tools necessary to control out of control situations. That is the service we provide and the service in which we are most proud of. Please know that I do not feel worthy of accolades, I do an above average job in a profession that I love.

I only called you naive definitively in the second post, in my first I was calling to arms. As to earnings and education as the measure of "regular", absolutely not. My contrast is to the politicians who again are not "regular" due to the inherent properties in their job. The "shape" comment was tongue in cheek from your irregularity response. (note I refrained from using your possible lack of fiber in diet for the punchline).

If I am offensive, I do not wish to be, though sometimes I attempt humor, sometimes illconcieved, I mean only to speak to the issues. I am constantly impressed with the intelligence of the posts on this site. I am proud for the debate, I think it silly that some (not necessarily you Flinty) want PS to pull punches. I am not against city government, how could I be? I am concerned, genuinely with the plumbness of this administration, and with the methods in which they conduct their business. This became heated when the Unions brought these practices to light, for us it began at the bargaining table, it then spread outwardly in the administration's refusal to present to the public a square deal.


The very point of my postings is that we are not special people, the job is special and we do it well.

Please know that I do not feel worthy of accoladesOf course I do not know you personally but I've known a good many firefighters and police officers and I think all of you deserve every accolade we manage to give you and then some. I know you weren't bragging and I respect your opinion and your posts.


The "shape" comment was tongue in cheek from your irregularity response.I know! I laughed out loud when I read that and thought "well done."


If I am offensive, I do not wish to be, though sometimes I attempt humor, sometimes illconcieved, I mean only to speak to the issues.
I haven't been offended and I understand your position and appreciate what you've written.

I am concerned, genuinely with the plumbness of this administration, and with the methods in which they conduct their business. This became heated when the Unions brought these practices to light, for us it began at the bargaining table, it then spread outwardly in the administration's refusal to present to the public a square deal. I believe that you and others are very concerned and passionate and have legitimate issues with the administration. There is no argument there at all.

I support now and will support in the future additional funding for both the fire and police departments. If someone will get a measure I can vote on I will vote in favor of it. I might plant a sign in my yard -- well, probably not as I truly hate those things. But I'll talk it up.

If there should be more citizen review of city administration practices about distributing revenue to the departments then I will support some way to accomplish that.

But in both of these cases someone is going to have to get something done politically so there is more for me to support than posts on this forum.

In the meantime I will write and send emails to my council representative, Mayor, City Manager, Police Chief, and Fire Chief letting them know that I have concerns about the unresolved conflict between the City and its public safety departments and urge greater effort to resolve.

But I still intend to vote YES for MAPS 3.

And regardless of what I've written above I do not believe that the firefighter and police positions are the only truth. I do not believe that all politicians are liars and crooks. Rather I think most people who decide to serve in leadership positions truly want to do a good job and work very hard to find solutions to very difficult problems. I also think the professional city administrators and staff also work very hard trying to do their jobs well.


The very point of my postings is that we are not special people, the job is special and we do it well.Actually I do think you who serve as firefighters and police officers are special people.

December 8th will affect the CURRENT Police Department and Fire Department. They will be further stretched! I wish I knew for sure the MANPOWER needs would be addressed. But from a city that's already broke...how? They didn't do anything to relieve the problem in FAT years, so how are they going to do it now???

If you believe they will, well that's because you've not heard it year after year after year. They could have addressed it before MAPS3 or at the same time by adding a Permanent Tax but they didn't.

Come On December 8th!!!!!:LolLolLol

December 8th will affect the CURRENT Police Department and Fire Department. They will be further stretched! I wish I knew for sure the MANPOWER needs would be addressed. But from a city that's already broke...how? They didn't do anything to relieve the problem in FAT years, so how are they going to do it now???

If you believe they will, well that's because you've not heard it year after year after year. They could have addressed it before MAPS3 or at the same time by adding a Permanent Tax but they didn't.

Come On December 8th!!!!!:LolLolLolYou know I really hate this attitude that everything is going to hell and there's nothing that can be done about it and woe is me and poor me and we're victims of big bad Mayor Mick.

You act like it is a one way street. You all could have done something. In fact, I'll say it more strongly - should have done something. You had the same time that the City had to do something.

Instead of being negative and destructive you should regroup and find positive ways to actually get something done constructively for yourselves and the city.

Instead of fearing progress and change you should embrace the future and vow to work harder for a safer, more secure City.

If you defeat MAPS 3 there is not one additional penny that will be spent on fire and police. Not one.

What's so irritating is that you all know this full well and are going ahead with this Sherman to the sea scorched earth policy.

Absolutely disgusts me.

The more I think about this the more irritated I get.

You firefighters and police representatives present your side as being totally victimized by the City and claim that these problems developed over the years since the first MAPS. That's 16 years now or will be in a few days.

I am certain that there were collective bargaining negotiations conducted during that time. Apparently other than this most recent contract you all negotiated and agreed to contracts.

So what exists is what you agreed to live under.

If, during this time, you felt that things were deteriorating why did you not try to do something?

Why was an initiative not attempted?

Was it ineffective leadership on your part?

Now as far as the illegal activity or activities that is alleged on the part of the City of Oklahoma City I want to know if the City Auditor agrees with your position? Has a formal complaint been made to the City Attorney and/or to the City Council?

If there is illegal activity it seems to me it is likely criminal so has the Attorney General or the Federal Attorney been contacted? Who are you alleging performed these criminal acts and exactly what are they? Is it one individual or a large conspiracy?

On another note I cannot find the email address for the Chief of Police on the City website. I also can't find the email for the City Attorney or for the City Auditor. But they have FAX so I suppose I'll contact them that way.

December 8th will affect the CURRENT Police Department and Fire Department. They will be further stretched! I wish I knew for sure the MANPOWER needs would be addressed. But from a city that's already broke...how? They didn't do anything to relieve the problem in FAT years, so how are they going to do it now???

If you believe they will, well that's because you've not heard it year after year after year. They could have addressed it before MAPS3 or at the same time by adding a Permanent Tax but they didn't.

Come On December 8th!!!!!:LolLolLol

you won't be further stretched ... if maps passes ... but i assure you of this if maps fails the bad will the police and fire are creating with the public will hurt your depts in the long run ... and the city will continue with there hard ball tactics ..

I noticed the letter stating that fact in the Oklahoma Gazette. It wasn't clear precisely what was being referred to, as the numbers don't add up. Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile. Now, obviously people have to have time off. Not counting vacations, there are about 4 40 hour shifts a week, which brings the math up to 1 police officer per 2.3 square miles or so. I'm not going to do the math to factor in vacations, but it probably puts you up, at most, to 1 officer per 4 square miles. Even if you had half of your officers in administrative positions, we're talking one officer per 8 square miles.

For one officer to have to cover 100 square miles, we'd have to have a force of about 35 officers or so, or 70 if half were administrative.

You lost me on this one...Sorry but may have missed it, but how many patrol officers per shift are there for that 622 square miles? If I am reading your post correctly you are having all 1,029 PD working the same shift?

If each officer works a 12 hour shift, which is what I'm accustomed to, they would work 3.3 shifts per week, calculating a 40 hour work week. I don't know if they work 40 hours but since that's an average, that's the figure I used. There are 168 hours in a week, which comes out to 4.2 forty hours shifts to be covered. That would give us, at any given time, 244 officers working, excluding vacation. If each officer has 4 weeks vacation/sick leave, we would actually have 216 officers working at any given time. That would give us one officer per 2.87 miles. Then I assumed 50% working in some other capacity such as administration, which seems high, but what do I know, and that stretches it out to one officer per 5.76 square miles. If there's a mathematical error you spot, please forgive me, as I'm not a mathematician. But, I cannot come up with any mathematical formula that has 1,029 police officers unable to achieve a density of less than 100 square miles per officer, since at any given time we would only have to have 6.22 officers in the field to do so.

What's so irritating is that you all know this full well and are going ahead with this Sherman to the sea scorched earth policy.

Absolutely disgusts me.
Relax Flinty. It's ok for someone to have a different point of view that you. I suppose anyone who votes NO is doom and gloom by your comment.

Now as far as the illegal activity or activities that is alleged on the part of the City of Oklahoma City I want to know if the City Auditor agrees with your position? Has a formal complaint been made to the City Attorney and/or to the City Council?
I'm not sure if I know what illegal activity you're talking about. If you mean I think there is a "Conflict of Interest". Yes I do. Don't you? Take a look.
Cornett Blogs (http://markshannon.com/CORNETT.htm)
(Article IV S 11 No officer of the City shall benefit DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY in any contract made by, to or with the City, or be otherwise directly financially interested in any corporation having any contract or subcontract for doing any contact job or work for the City.) What's that mean to you?

On another note I cannot find the email address for the Chief of Police on the City website. I also can't find the email for the City Attorney or for the City Auditor. But they have FAX so I suppose I'll contact them that way.
I doubt the Chief of Police is going to be able to help you. The City Attorney may be able to. The City Auditor also probably has something better to do. If the city auditor or city attorney return your email, then you've made it alot further than most citizens. I doubt they want to get into the middle of MAPS3 anymore than they already are.

I'll tell you something that I don't like. The Chamber of Commerce get 5 MILLION dollars in PUBLIC Funds to fight me in an election. That's disgusting!
By definition isn't the Chamber of Commerce a nasty "UNION"? So aren't they "UNION PEOPLE"?

The "top heavy" question and Was it ineffective leadership on your part? may be answered by the Chief, but again i doubt he wants to deal with MAPS3 anymore than he has too. I'm only glad I don't work for Chesapeake. I've been told that they are polling their own employee's and if they feel contrary to what Chesapeake leaders about MAPS3 they might risk being fired. Wow!

I'll tell you something that I don't like. The Chamber of Commerce get 5 MILLION dollars in PUBLIC Funds to fight me in an election. That's disgusting!
By definition isn't the Chamber of Commerce a nasty "UNION"? So aren't they "UNION PEOPLE"?

Depends what definition you use. Anyone getting together it technically a union. The CoC is a bunch of people with similar motives but who all don't get money from the same organization, so not a labor union, more just nasty people.

How about the definition everyone uses Chance. Is that one ok? Did you have another?

un·ion (ynyn)
n.
1.
a. The act of uniting or the state of being united.
b. A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit.

Sounds like they are "UNION" people to me.

Like I said, technically, anything is a union, because a union is any group of people that come together, which is the definition you so helpfully pointed out. That includes everything, social groups, PACs, gangs, cartels, etc etc

When people speak of unions in the way others have in this thread, they're talking about labor unions, which typically requires the same field of employment. That doesn't tend to the case with CoC. They have the same purposes, which is to try to promote anything that helps themselves and their members no matter the costs, but widely different occupations and fields of employment.

They have the same purposes, which is to try to promote anything that helps themselves and their members no matter the costs, but widely different occupations and fields of employment.
Chance ..now you're talking!!

That includes everything, social groups, PACs, gangs, cartels, etc etc
Their you go...went a little to far with that didn't you? again...Gangs and cartels and social groups are not the same by "definition" Not your definition...

COC...they meet the "UNION" definition though don't they?

Chance ..now you're talking!!

Hey, I'm not saying anything people shouldn't already know.


Their you go...went a little to far with that didn't you? again...Gangs and cartels and social groups are not the same by "definition" Not your definition...

COC...they meet the "UNION" definition though don't they?

By your definition, I don't think so. A union is that broad. Like you said, it's any group of people who meet together for their own benefit. Gangs, cartels and social groups are all groups of people who meet together for their own benefits, are they not? By that definition, CoC's are a union, but that's the broader of definitions, and not really one people talk about when they talk about labor unions.

If each officer works a 12 hour shift, which is what I'm accustomed to, they would work 3.3 shifts per week, calculating a 40 hour work week. I don't know if they work 40 hours but since that's an average, that's the figure I used. There are 168 hours in a week, which comes out to 4.2 forty hours shifts to be covered. That would give us, at any given time, 244 officers working, excluding vacation. If each officer has 4 weeks vacation/sick leave, we would actually have 216 officers working at any given time. That would give us one officer per 2.87 miles. Then I assumed 50% working in some other capacity such as administration, which seems high, but what do I know, and that stretches it out to one officer per 5.76 square miles. If there's a mathematical error you spot, please forgive me, as I'm not a mathematician. But, I cannot come up with any mathematical formula that has 1,029 police officers unable to achieve a density of less than 100 square miles per officer, since at any given time we would only have to have 6.22 officers in the field to do so.

Thanks, that helps some. What threw me was your beginning calculation: "Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile."

Thanks, that helps some. What threw me was your beginning calculation: "Oklahoma City is 622 square miles in size, and we have 1,029 police officers. That comes out to a figure of 1 police offer per .55 square mile."

Yeah, I didn't make it as clear as I should have. I just knew that one officer covering 100 square miles didn't make sense.

Yeah, I didn't make it as clear as I should have. I just knew that one officer covering 100 square miles didn't make sense.
I know it doesn't make sense, but many nights and days depending on the situation it happens!

I know it doesn't make sense, but many nights and days depending on the situation it happens!

Can you show us how? And where? Even in a city as big as Oklahoma City, ten square miles is almost a sixth of it's total area. I can understand us having very little density of policemen in some of our underpopulated areas, as you can travel very quickly and I can't imagine there's any crime to speak of, but 100 square miles is still a huge amount of territory (although the farthest distance in 100 square miles is about 16 miles, due to the fact that it's ten miles square). If people are going to throw statistics like that out, I'd like to see some documentation.

i've explained how that works in a previous post. A shift doesn't start out that thin. 9-11 for over 300 square miles maybe, but one incident and it can easily be 1 to 100 square miles.

The only way to alleviate that is to have other officers from other divisions answer any calls that come out in the hurting division.

I can understand why it doesn't matter to you. You have the luxury of having a "TWO" police stations within 5 miles from your door. Other citizens don't have that and other citizens, not just you, are PAYING for maps. For your 900 dollars a year, you're getting taken care of quite nicely. You even stand to get yourself a "New" Mulit Million dollar park. That should help your property values quite nicely. I'd hope you'd send a thank you letter to other taxpayers.

i've explained how that works in a previous post. A shift doesn't start out that thin. 9-11 for over 300 square miles maybe, but one incident and it can easily be 1 to 100 square miles.

The only way to alleviate that is to have other officers from other divisions answer any calls that come out in the hurting division.

I can understand why it doesn't matter to you. You have the luxury of having a "TWO" police stations within 5 miles from your door. Other citizens don't have that and other citizens, not just you, are PAYING for maps. For your 900 dollars a year, you're getting taken care of quite nicely. You even stand to get yourself a "New" Mulit Million dollar park. That should help your property values quite nicely. I'd hope you'd send a thank you letter to other taxpayers.

900 dollars a Year???? really that would be someone spending 90K in okc in a year ... doubtfull ..

in fact for most people the 120 $ figure is way to high

when you consider the fact that a large part of the money spent in okc is from people that don't live in okc ..

Out of 1,029 officers, you only have 9 to 11 working an entire shift? What are the rest of them doing?

i just got thinking. we do have a park very close to the same location they want to build this big onw. its called wheeler park, it looks nice with a nice skate park and grass and trees. why cant you guys use that park?

Because the police never bothered to keep the riff-raff out? Just saying.

Because the police never bothered to keep the riff-raff out? Just saying.

Sure they did, although they only chased them across Robinson to the other park of Wiley Post, which is where the skate park is.