I'll take the $100. I wrestle 300lb psych patients down all the time while the police just sit back, watch, and do nothing, because they "can't possibly touch the patient."

Patrick, I posted this in another thread, but I see it needs to go here as well.

I don't think they want a tax increase, but use the public safety tax used the way it is supposed to be used and not on pet projects for the city council. By calling it a public safety tax they can use it for roads, repairs and other items that are not truely public safety items. The FD and PD want the money spent the way it was originally intended, and that is for manpower issues and equipment.

If that is indeed happening, and the money isn't being spent on overtime and other expenses for your two departments that weren't anticipated when the public safety tax was passed, then it is not right. However, there should be ways to approach this issue that do not involve campaigning against an unrelated issue. Again, campaign against the city council members and the mayor who are allegedly doing this. There are television stations and newspapers. Apply pressure publicly. Your police and fire chiefs should be media-worthy. Let them take a public stand.

Really? That'd be a pretty easy hundred bucks for me. I used to work as a bouncer, taking care of big, drunk, belligerent people is second nature.

LOL..The guy wasn't drunk if I remember right. You are obviously a liar or think very highly of your physical abilities. I'm not close to that size, but I know you and Patrick both at the same time couldn't maintain control of a firearm and handcuff me. I know that because I've had people try...

Newsflash...Chance...not everyone is walking around drunk and easy prey like you experienced in the bar. Don't become fooled by how easy it is to overtake a VERY Drunk person twice your size. Sober is a whole different story...


I'll take the $100. I wrestle 300lb psych patients down all the time while the police just sit back, watch, and do nothing, because they "can't possibly touch the patient."

I know Patty's a liar if you want me to believe you wrestle 300lb patients down EVER by yourself. WOW...You're a Dr...i've never seen....most are pretty meek and mild. Ever though of a career in MMA...pays better than being a Dr...if you're that good.

I'm pretty sure of my physical capabilites, but my ego...even on the other side of a computer...isn't big enough to pretend wrestling a mad 120lb woman down is easy...much less a 300lb man. I'd know because I've been tasked to do both...at one time or another...

It's getting DEEP in here...LOL..It's almost enough to ask you to truely put your money where your mouth is....I KNOW you'd both have a different perspective for sure...:LolLolLol

I know Patty's a liar if you want me to believe you wrestle 300lb patients down EVER by yourself. WOW...You're a Dr...i've never seen....most are pretty meek and mild. Ever though of a career in MMA...pays better than being a Dr...if you're that good.

I have the same training as CIT officers. I've taken 300lb psychotic agitated patients down many times when scared officers wouldn't get involved and I had to do it to protect the patient and my nursing staff. Did a take down on a pt last week and went to 5 point leather restraints with the guy. Go into the Crisis Center (OCCIC) sometime...most people are too scared to ever set foot in that place.


I'm pretty sure of my physical capabilites, but my ego...even on the other side of a computer...isn't big enough to pretend wrestling a mad 120lb woman down is easy...much less a 300lb man. I'd know because I've been tasked to do both...at one time or another...

It's easier than you think when you've been trained appropriately and have a mostly female nursing staff to protect.

Anyways, what does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread?

Can all of you guys just hurry up and show each other your *****es and be done with it?

Yep, makes me want to pay more for city services!

I
have the same training as CIT officers. I've taken 300lb psychotic agitated patients down many times when scared officers wouldn't get involved and I had to do it to protect the patient and my nursing staff. Did a take down on a pt last week and went to 5 point leather restraints with the guy. Go into the Crisis Center (OCCIC) sometime...most people are too scared to ever set foot in that place.

This is hiliarious!!! OOOOk....I believe you Patty....pathological....WOW!
Was he heavy to pick up or no problem?:LolLolLol


Next time the police want more money, just remember this:

That's what I was thinking when you posted that comment.


most people are too scared to ever set foot in that place.

:LolLolLol

i give up......:whiteflag:doh::LolLolLol

Go into the Crisis Center (OCCIC) sometime

I might take you up on that offer. I'd love to get some pointers and see this stuff first hand. I'll ask around maybe I'll get a first hand account from some of the scared officers you're telling me about. What's their names? :LolLolLol

:backtotop

I have the same training as CIT officers. I've taken 300lb psychotic agitated patients down many times when scared officers wouldn't get involved and I had to do it to protect the patient and my nursing staff. Did a take down on a pt last week and went to 5 point leather restraints

I agree betts...but one more on this "crazy" talk

Patrick. With your training why couldn't you talk to the psychotic agitated patient down? Why did you have to resort to physical violence? I bet you just walk around the Crisis Center wanting any patient to "act" agitated. You might need some anger management. You were probably picked on as a child and now evidently get off on bullying druged patients in a controlled enviorment.


Did a take down on a pt last week and went to 5 point leather restraints with the guy. Go into the Crisis Center (OCCIC) sometime...most people are too scared to ever set foot in that place.

You sound very proud of yourself. I'm sure you called all of your friends and bragged about how you almost had to Kill a guy. I wonder if another doctor had to come in and patch up your VICTIM?:LolLolLol Sound familiar?

I'd liked to see a video of the incident also. I want it on the news so all can see your brutality and abuse of innocent patients who just want and need a Doctors care. LOL...

This is ludicrous. If you want to discuss the work of a psychiatrist we can do so in another thread in a different forum, but back to topic....this is about police and fire.

Betts, I just found this on City of Oklahoma City | Public Safety (http://www.okc.gov/safety) "Police and Fire get even more revenue through the dedicated three-quarter cent Public Safety Sales Tax."

So to answer your question, I think to the two departments it is realted since they will be the ones who have to pick up the extra coverage for safety with more events going downtown. If there is already a shortage of manpower wtihout the new stuff, then what happens when MAPS3 projects get built? I can see a relationship between the two items.
Yes the projects will add to the vibrancy of downtown, and yes that's a good thing. It also means more people in those setting and that creates a burden on the two departments that will have to have presence (police) at the planned events for security, and fire will have to be able to respond even if ambulance will be present. I can see many reasons why all available resources will be needed in these areas.

If it means there will physically be more people in Oklahoma City if we pass MAPS, then those concerns are valid (although I doubt population will increase geometrically, and so there is probably still time to hire appropriate numbers of support personnel). However, one could also argue that the same people who would be at the downtown park would otherwise be at different city parks, or at the movies, or downtown in Bricktown and still need the same police and fire services. The argument is only valid if we get an actual statistically significant increase in population or visitors. I would hope that would be the case ultimately, but remember, it's going to take at least 10 years to fully implement MAPS, and so we've got some time to increase numbers of firemen and policemen to respond to a population increase.

Golfer, again I don't deny that you have needs. The bond issue was supposed to address equipment. If it hasn't I'd be demanding from the city an answer as to why not....if you have to take them to court then do it. As far as manpower goes, instead of opposing MAPS 3 I'd be launching a petition of sorts against the city to get that addressed. If citizens see the need in you petition drive/campaign I think most would be in favor of a tax increase to meet your needs. That being said, if it wasn't for MAPS 1 I think you guys would be in a lot worse shape now. All of those new businesses downtown and all of the events at the downtown venues and state fair park are generating sales tax revenue. I think MAPS 3 would help us further build our sales tax base, and I don't know how opposing it is going to get your needs met. If we need a change in administration then spend your efforts on changing who we have in public office.

Patrick, the city's goal is just to open the doors at the fire stations and that is about the extent. You are right in saying that the only way we can ever assure that they spent the monies appropriately is to take them to court, I.E. the city over budgets monies in the Fire Dept. budget every year on purpose (leave pay, etc.) that will never be spent and these millions get shuttled back into the general fund. Unfortunately the legal system takes time and money. By the way with all the downtown delevelopment your talking of will be affected by our 2% mid-year mandatory proposed budget cut which consists of two engine companies and one brush pumper being put out of service and these three rigs are from the 2 downtown stations which cover downtown and the bricktown areas. Our relationship with the city has soured starting way back the year after the Murrah building bombing when we agreed to keep our same contract because all that was going on and the city said that they would make it up to us the following year, which did not happen. Yes , I know it takes two to tango and both sides should share the burden. I personally believe that the city does not care what we do and they do not fear the power of unions and we are not backing Maps 3 because we feel that are backs are against the wall and if we could help defeat Maps 3, then this might get the city to better understand our needs. Politicians touch everything to do with our job and that is just they way it is, thank God I will be retiring in a few years.

I really think, Golfer, your thoughts that by defeating MAPS you'll get the city to better understand your needs is going to backfire. There are so many city and state departments facing furloughs and layoffs that it's going to be hard to generate sympathy from others in the same position. By working to defeat something that is actually beneficial to people who live in the city, you'll raise the ire of those who wants MAPS to pass, even if they sympathize with your plight. Last night I was talking to two people randomly, neither of whom I knew, and I was wearing a Thunder shirt, which must have been the stimulus for the next part of the conversation. Both of them suddenly began talking about how great MAPS has been for our city, and one of them said, "We can't stop the momentum now. We've got to keep moving forward." The other told a story about spending time downtown with his daughter at Christmas, sledding at the Brick, riding the trolley and enjoying Bricktown. He said, "I know without MAPS we wouldn't have been able to do any of those things. I'm so proud of how much better Oklahoma City is than is was before MAPS." I think you all may underestimate precisely how many people feel they have improved quality of life because of MAPS, because I have heard precisely this from people of all different socieconomic groups.

LOL, you should keep talking, Iron, you're the best evidence against the police anyone could ask for! :LolLolLol I keep hearing your rants in the voice of a petulant 5 year old, it really sets the mood for you!


LOL..The guy wasn't drunk if I remember right. You are obviously a liar or think very highly of your physical abilities. I'm not close to that size, but I know you and Patrick both at the same time couldn't maintain control of a firearm and handcuff me. I know that because I've had people try...

Newsflash...Chance...not everyone is walking around drunk and easy prey like you experienced in the bar. Don't become fooled by how easy it is to overtake a VERY Drunk person twice your size. Sober is a whole different story...

yep! :LolLolLol

I love how you have to threw in that "very" in there. Maybe you're a liar and you only ever deal with the falling down drunks as your job as a magic perfect police man sir. Or maybe your personality is so abrasive that no one ever would hang out with you enough to know what it's like to be around a belligerent guy who drank just enough to have limited inhibitions and a dull sense of pain. If so... :congrats: I wonder which it is, liar or pariah :wink:


I'm pretty sure of my physical capabilites, but my ego...even on the other side of a computer...isn't big enough to pretend wrestling a mad 120lb woman down is easy...much less a 300lb man. I'd know because I've been tasked to do both...at one time or another...

ooh, so that's why you have to handcuff them before you beat them with nightsticks like all the tough guys do! :numchucks :LolLolLol

And then, when the force is filled with people who can't handle anyone else, you get to make it standard procedure :) :beaten_fi


You were probably picked on as a child and now evidently get off on bullying druged patients in a controlled enviorment.

Ooh, yay, is it psychoanalyze time? Can I have a turn?

You were a guy who always demanded respect. Stealing toys, pushing little girls down, anything to get people to be afraid of you. But wait! Everyone got older and grew up, except for you! :Smiley130

So now you went through "magic policeman training" and came out of it with a badge! Yay! :police: Now everyone has to respect you, and you don't have to do anything to earn it! :kicking:

And if you didn't have it, you'd probably be in jail for beating someone because they didn't respect you, and that's bad :( But you don't have to worry about that now, you get to do it as part of the job! Yay!

Uh oh, we strayed off. Better get :backtotop

((Hmm, sound familiar? We should call that the Iron XD :LolLolLol ))

your thoughts that by defeating MAPS you'll get the city to better understand your needs is going to backfire.

betts your like a broken record. We got it!. We are ruining and turning people against us because we don't support MAPS3.


By working to defeat something that is actually beneficial to people who live in the city, you'll raise the ire of those who wants MAPS to pass, even if they sympathize with your plight.

That couldn't be further from the truth. Many of the things are beneficial to a few people in the city. Bett's you live in a sweet bubble. You're so far out of touch with what's going on in other parts of the city. I'd like to take you on a tour of alot of other parts of the city that don't look like Heritage Hills, Crown Heights...etc..nothing wrong with those places. I have friends that live in those neighborhoods and I used to live Downtown.

There are plenty of other places that only care about City Services!!!! They depend greatly on POLICE, FIRE, and City Services...They don't give a rats about any park or bike trail that's not in their OWN neighborhood.

MAPS has done great things for our city. I'm very proud. I voted for them. NOT THIS MAPS!!!! How about MAPS for ALL of our trails, sidewalks, parks etc....ALL OVER THE CITY!!!!!. Not just downtown.

MAPS3 may make for some great park Christmas story but it's IRRESPONSIBLE to put Public Saftey last and DOWNTOWN first. What about the REST OF OKC???

You might be surprised how little support you have from other parts of the city.

Actually, I don't live in a bubble. I've probably lived in places in OKC you would be afraid to, at times, and I live downtown now. The people I was talking to about MAPS the other night were blue collar, at best. And, one of the major health issues facing our inner city and southside families is obesity. Far more children and adults are going to die of obesity and its related illnesses than a gunshot or stab wound. There are multiple reasons why, but lack of exercise is a major one, and the car is one of the major enemies here. Better transit that you have to walk to catch, more parks, more sidewalks, more trails and aquatic centers are at least things we can do to try and get people outside.

Again, most of the people on this forum seem to think we should work for both, so I'm really unsure why you're trying to antagonize us. I believe it's counterproductive.

How about MAPS for ALL of our trails, sidewalks, parks etc....ALL OVER THE CITY!!!!!. Not just downtown.
The trails and sidewalks proposed are for large portions of the city and not just downtown.

This thread is a minefield and I really don't have much to add that hasn't been repeated ad nauseum up to this point. With that said, I support MAPS3 wholeheartedely, and I also will (and would have before the MAPS3 opposition) support an increase in tax rate to further fund police and fire. The police funding has been brought to my attention by police officers in the past and I've gone out of my way to try and educate others that the police department feels it needs more staffing. I will support both of these initiatives given the chance, but the opposition of MAPS gives me more negative feelings of the police union overall, where I didn't have them before. You're obviously striking a chord with someone, but it's not with me or any of the people I deal with on a daily basis.

Meeting set to discuss Oklahoma City firefighters’ raises
City council: Official to meet today with fire union boss over contract
BY JOHN ESTUS
Published: November 6, 2009

The city’s fire union president will meet with Oklahoma City Manager Jim Couch today about the ongoing work contract dispute between the city and its firefighters. "It is our desire to continue to try to communicate with the city." Phil Sipe fire union president

The meeting comes after Couch wrote fire union president Phil Sipe last week to tentatively accept an offer Sipe mentioned in a story in The Oklahoman days earlier.

Sipe confirmed the meeting Thursday.

Couch declined to comment, citing ongoing negotiations, city spokeswoman Kristy Yager said.


Election set over raise
Negotiations between the city and International Association of Firefighters Local 157 concerning next year’s firefighter work contract stalled this summer. Arbitrators later gave the firefighters the 1 percent raise they sought. City officials have said they cannot afford such a raise.
In response, city council members set a Feb. 9 election in which voters will decide whether the firefighters should get a raise.

City employees did not get raises this year.

Both sides said they are trying to avoid the election and hope to reach an agreement beforehand.

‘Me too’ acceptable
Today’s meeting is the result of a blunt letter Couch sent Sipe last week that said council members are willing to accept an offer Sipe described in a story in The Oklahoman, which Couch attached to the letter.
In the story, Sipe said the union had agreed to forgo raises for city firefighters this year and roll over last year’s contract if a "me too” clause was included.

The "me too” clause would guarantee raises for firefighters if the city gives other employees raises, which officials do not plan to do this year.

But council members have never received such an offer. Offers the union submitted with the "me too” clause included additional benefits requests that city officials contend would cost millions. "At no time have I been aware of proposals submitted to the City by the IAFF that included only the rollover with the ‘me too’ clause,” Couch wrote in the letter.

Couch continued: "Nonetheless, I am authorized by the City Council to accept the IAFF offer to roll over the contract with the ‘me too’ clause for fiscal year 2009-2010. Please advise when you are available to sign a tentative agreement.” Sipe said he is not planning to bring a new offer to the meeting, but hopes it will be productive. "It is our desire to continue to try to communicate with the city,” Sipe said.

Read more: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/meeting-set-to-discuss-oklahoma-city-firefighters-raises/article/3415034?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0W5kL1zc G)

Meeting set to discuss Oklahoma City firefighters’ raises
City council: Official to meet today with fire union boss over contract
BY JOHN ESTUS
Published: November 6, 2009

The city’s fire union president will meet with Oklahoma City Manager Jim Couch today about the ongoing work contract dispute between the city and its firefighters. "It is our desire to continue to try to communicate with the city." Phil Sipe fire union president

The meeting comes after Couch wrote fire union president Phil Sipe last week to tentatively accept an offer Sipe mentioned in a story in The Oklahoman days earlier.

Sipe confirmed the meeting Thursday.

Couch declined to comment, citing ongoing negotiations, city spokeswoman Kristy Yager said.


Election set over raise
Negotiations between the city and International Association of Firefighters Local 157 concerning next year’s firefighter work contract stalled this summer. Arbitrators later gave the firefighters the 1 percent raise they sought. City officials have said they cannot afford such a raise.
In response, city council members set a Feb. 9 election in which voters will decide whether the firefighters should get a raise.

City employees did not get raises this year.

Both sides said they are trying to avoid the election and hope to reach an agreement beforehand.

‘Me too’ acceptable
Today’s meeting is the result of a blunt letter Couch sent Sipe last week that said council members are willing to accept an offer Sipe described in a story in The Oklahoman, which Couch attached to the letter.
In the story, Sipe said the union had agreed to forgo raises for city firefighters this year and roll over last year’s contract if a "me too” clause was included.

The "me too” clause would guarantee raises for firefighters if the city gives other employees raises, which officials do not plan to do this year.

But council members have never received such an offer. Offers the union submitted with the "me too” clause included additional benefits requests that city officials contend would cost millions. "At no time have I been aware of proposals submitted to the City by the IAFF that included only the rollover with the ‘me too’ clause,” Couch wrote in the letter.

Couch continued: "Nonetheless, I am authorized by the City Council to accept the IAFF offer to roll over the contract with the ‘me too’ clause for fiscal year 2009-2010. Please advise when you are available to sign a tentative agreement.” Sipe said he is not planning to bring a new offer to the meeting, but hopes it will be productive. "It is our desire to continue to try to communicate with the city,” Sipe said.

Read more: NewsOK (http://www.newsok.com/meeting-set-to-discuss-oklahoma-city-firefighters-raises/article/3415034?custom_click=headlines_widget#ixzz0W5kL1zc G)"But Council members have never received such an offer". Maybe they didn't, but I don't understand why they would not have, considering that a member of City Council attends and monitors every negotiation meeting between the City and the Union.

In another thread, I've posted some links to some good articles at NewsOK.com that appear not to have made the paper version ... see http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-area-talk/19717-police-firemen-have-another-route-2.html#post268604

"Today’s meeting is the result of a blunt letter Couch sent Sipe last week that said council members are willing to accept an offer Sipe described in a story in The Oklahoman, which Couch attached to the letter. In the story, Sipe said the union had agreed to forgo raises for city firefighters this year and roll over last year’s contract if a "me too” clause was included. "

Whoops. I guess Sipe thought no one in city government would read that story.

"Today’s meeting is the result of a blunt letter Couch sent Sipe last week that said council members are willing to accept an offer Sipe described in a story in The Oklahoman, which Couch attached to the letter. In the story, Sipe said the union had agreed to forgo raises for city firefighters this year and roll over last year’s contract if a "me too” clause was included. "

Whoops. I guess Sipe thought no one in city government would read that story.Whoops is right, but it has nothing to do with the story. Blunt you bet, but it has nothing to do with a letter. You may be surprised by the latest turn of events. Stay tuned.

Whoops is right, but it has nothing to do with the story. Blunt you bet, but it has nothing to do with a letter. You may be surprised by the latest turn of events. Stay tuned.

Personally, I don't see any of this as an "us versus them" situation. So, while you think I may be surprised, I won't be disappointed if the fireman and policemen get what they want. I've said right along that I don't have enough data to make any sort of grand pronouncement about who deserves what. I have some questions, for which I have gotten no answers from anyone but Larry, whom I don't believe works for either department. But, my interest is in improvement of our city, and that may well require more policemen and firemen, although I also think we're overdoing the medical response personnel numbers. Maybe we need EMSA to go away and you all to do it all.

"Today’s meeting is the result of a blunt letter Couch sent Sipe last week that said council members are willing to accept an offer Sipe described in a story in The Oklahoman, which Couch attached to the letter. In the story, Sipe said the union had agreed to forgo raises for city firefighters this year and roll over last year’s contract if a "me too” clause was included. "

Whoops. I guess Sipe thought no one in city government would read that story.

Betts please go to the video link that Doug posted right before yours. Jim Couch is being less than truthful when he says the offer was never made. It was made and flat out refused by the city. That he wants to accept it now, after getting his butt handed to him in arbitration, is hardly suprising. I bet what Phil was counting on is that someone other than city staff (possibly someone on the council) would read it and ask why they turned it down without it being presented to the council.

Personally, I don't see any of this as an "us versus them" situation. So, while you think I may be surprised, I won't be disappointed if the fireman and policemen get what they want. I've said right along that I don't have enough data to make any sort of grand pronouncement about who deserves what. I have some questions, for which I have gotten no answers from anyone but Larry, whom I don't believe works for either department. But, my interest is in improvement of our city, and that may well require more policemen and firemen, although I also think we're overdoing the medical response personnel numbers. Maybe we need EMSA to go away and you all to do it all.I must have missed your questions in all this excitement. Please ask them again and I will do my very best to get you the answeres.

Betts please go to the video link that Doug posted right before yours. Jim Couch is being less than truthful when he says the offer was never made. It was made and flat out refused by the city. That he wants to accept it now, after getting his butt handed to him in arbitration, is hardly suprising. I bet what Phil was counting on is that someone other than city staff (possibly someone on the council) would read it and ask why they turned it down without it being presented to the council.He has a point you know. Like I said there is a council member in attendence at every meeting. There must have been a communication glitch.

I must have missed your questions in all this excitement. Please ask them again and I will do my very best to get you the answeres.

Below is a copy of questions I asked in a different post:

I think there are a couple of other questions here. How have expenses per fireman and per policeman increased? Is it possible that salaries, pensions, and benefit costs have risen faster than the funds earmarked to support them? Is it possible that the costs of hiring each individual are such that the funds theoretically available to hire additional personnel are being used to support those already employed or retired? I don't know the answers, but think the questions are at least worth asking.

The other questions I have are: How many people retire after only 20 years of service? What is the average age at which firemen retire? Do they receive a full pension for the remainder of their life, even if they retire at age 38, which seems to be about the earliest age at which a fireman can retire?

It seems to me that if people can retire well before age 65, which is the average age of retirement for most of us, and if they receive a pension for the rest of their lives, that puts a huge burden on the funds required to support a reasonably sized staff. Now, I don't know if that is the case. But, I would like to know.

Part of the problem with all of this is a mismatch of information and communication and the policy of the Oklahoman which has contributed to the same. For practical purposes, we have three print publications which give the main news info to Oklahoma City citizens ... the Oklahoman, a daily publication; the Journal Record, which prints a bit less than that; and the Oklahoma Gazette which publishes only once a week.

So, on one hand, we've got the Oklahoma Gazette which is publishing regular and thorough articles on MAPS 3 ... but since it is only a weekly, that's only 1 article a week for genuinely substantive articles about MAPS 3.

On another hand, we've got the Journal Record which has posted fairly infrequently about MAPS 3 but, even at its slow rate, it has published more reasonably thorough articles than the Oklahoman has.

A third hand (yes, it's becoming something of a grotesque humanoid form) is the Oklahoman and it presents a special problem which I've described elsewhere. In a nutshell, Oklahoman reporters are apparently forbidden to present published discourse which would be possibly seen as contrary to MAPS 3, and, as I've said, that's a very ugly and huge blemish on the Oklahoman, in my opinion at least.

If you'll notice, even in today's (11/6) Oklahoman article which reported that a meeting would occur today between Jim Couch and Firefighter's Union president Phil Sipe, absolutely NO mention was made in the article about MAPS 3 even though one's intelligence level hasn't got be "damn dumb" to figure out that the meeting might have serious significance to MAPS 3.

I had thought that, maybe, the Oklahoman's allowance that Steve Lackmeyer attend and report on the 2nd Chamber "Breaking Through" luncheon might signal a more open reporting in the Oklahoman about MAPS 3, but, at this point, it appears that my optimism was misplaced.

The only news source, so far, which has continuously and objectively reported on MAPS 3 is the Oklahoma Gazette. The Journal Record has done a little serious reporting, but the powerful and established Oklahoman reporting has become a laughable joke, if one has a taste for dark humor, when it comes to reporting on MAPS 3.

That said, somehow slipping through the Oklahoman's cracks is a collection of articles about the Firefighters issue, many if not most not included in the print version of the Oklahoman. The area is called "Burning Through Money." (http://newsok.com/burningthroughmoney)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a49/DougLoudenback/coretoshore/maps3/newsok_burningthroughmoney2.jpg (http://newsok.com/burningthroughmoney)

In divorce parlance (which is the nature of my business), one winds up with a lot of "he said" vs. "she said" kinds of things. The mayor has dismissed the union's posturing as being an overture for better wages. I have to agree with the unions' responses which characterize the mayor's response as being disingenuous -- it is quite clear that additional staffing, and not wage increases, are the focus of the union positions.

The unions score a big + on the mayor on that item and he loses the point, big time. See this video (http://feeds.newsok.tv/services/player/bcpid1681694480?bctid=39618215001) and I think that you'll agree.

In all of this chaos of one side whipping up on the other, and given that the anti-MAPS 3 coalition people have publicly stated that they are not, per se, opposed to the the MAPS 3 projects, is it not yet possible for MAPS 3 proponents and opponents to find a common ground?

One would hope. Perhaps today's meeting between Jim Couch (City Manager) & Phil Sipe (Firefighters) might begin a path within and leading out of the quagmire.

Maybe, just maybe, we won't have to wait until the next weekly article in the Gazette is published to learn whether this is so.

Below is a copy of questions I asked in a different post:

I think there are a couple of other questions here. How have expenses per fireman and per policeman increased? Is it possible that salaries, pensions, and benefit costs have risen faster than the funds earmarked to support them? Is it possible that the costs of hiring each individual are such that the funds theoretically available to hire additional personnel are being used to support those already employed or retired? I don't know the answers, but think the questions are at least worth asking.

The other questions I have are: How many people retire after only 20 years of service? What is the average age at which firemen retire? Do they receive a full pension for the remainder of their life, even if they retire at age 38, which seems to be about the earliest age at which a fireman can retire?

It seems to me that if people can retire well before age 65, which is the average age of retirement for most of us, and if they receive a pension for the rest of their lives, that puts a huge burden on the funds required to support a reasonably sized staff. Now, I don't know if that is the case. But, I would like to know.

Betts, If you don't mind let me address your other questions first, since they may be somewhat easier. For now my answeres will be general in nature, and based upon my best guesstimate, if I can locate more precise numbers I will revise. I can only speak on these subjects as they pertain to Fire. Note: If any of you other Firefighters out there can add and/or correct me please fell free to jump on in.

You ask; How many people retire after only 20 years of service?

Today, and this has been true for the last 18-20 years, not very many, in fact, very few, maybe (3-5%). Prior to that I would say most (95%) guys retired with 20 years, 0 months, and 0 days. Most guys and/or gals today stay at least 25 years. 30-35 years of service is not at all uncommom, of course age, and ones job function play a big part in being able to work past 25 years.

For example in my recruit class which started 11/30/84 we started with 27 or 28, there were 3 of us 30+ years of age,(I was 30years+6 days) 3 were 18-20, and the rest on average were somewhere in the mid to upper 20s. Us old guys were gone between 23-25 years, the 3 youngsters plan on doing 35.


You ask; What is the average age at which Firefighters retire?

Again generally speaking, if the average starting age is 24-28 then your looking at retiring at 49-53 with 25 years of service.


You ask; Do they receive a full pension for the remainder of their life, even if they retire at age 38 which seems to be about the earliest age at which a Firefighter can retire?

Yes they receive a full pension for the remainder of their life. If they are married and pass away before their spouse, she will continue receiving his pension for the remainder of her life as well. A Firefighters pension is based and calculated on 50% of their last 30 months average salary. So if a persons final 30 months average gross salary was $4,800. a month his/her pension would be $2,400. a month. The 50% will increase by 2.5% for each year past 20 to a maximum of 75% or $3,600.

Regarding any financial burden on the City's budget to fund these retirements. The Firefighters Retirment and Pension System is a State controlled function. The City and the individual Firefighter each contribute a percentage of gross wages.

The City's pays 13% and the Firefighter pays 8% up to retirement. At retirement the contributions cease. Is this a significant amount of money, yes it is. The total annual number of firefighters that the City pays pension benefits on will generally decrease throughout the year, both in numbers due to retirements, and in actual cost. 13% of a newboy is considerably less than 13% of a 25 year Veteran. When you compare the OKC Firefighters to the Firefighters in our 10 peer City's some City's contribute more, some less.


Hope this helps. I'll get back with you later on your other questions. They are a bit harder.

I've probably lived in places in OKC you would be afraid to, at times, and I live downtown now.

Geez...that's comical...but Nope..I've got a couple of long stories that I could tell you before I say...Wrong!!! Try again.


And, one of the major health issues facing our inner city and southside families is obesity. Far more children and adults are going to die of obesity and its related illnesses than a gunshot or stab wound. There are multiple reasons why, but lack of exercise is a major one, and the car is one of the major enemies here. Better transit that you have to walk to catch, more parks, more sidewalks, more trails and aquatic centers are at least things we can do to try and get people outside.

I can assure you that the kids around NE 16th and Lottie aren't worried about their health as much as a gunshot or stab wound. That statement couldn't be any more WRONG. I agree with the health of our state is bad. Alot of things need to be changed, but the insinuation that a park, mass transit, and more sidewalks is going to totally change everything is absolutely ridiculous. You are really out of touch with what's going on right in front of your face.

Go to Okcissues.com

go down to the citizen from Ward 7 and listen to her. Then you won't have to pretend you know what they are concerned about. Just listen and she'll tell you.


most of the people on this forum seem to think we should work for both

Most of the people on this forum have been condescending at best. Most have insinuated that City Employee's are lazy, Mismanaged, Overpaid, underworked, overfunded, hot tempered, violent, abusive and undereducated just to name a few.

They follow that up with, "We support Public Safety". A couple have sent me personal messages noting they had no idea of the state of our city services before reading a few posted things and inquiring themselves. Good for them.

The other folks have given me a few good laughs, but have remained irrational. I could tell them we only have 5 officers and 2 fireman for the entire city and they'd respond, "well maybe that's all we need". Citizens seem happy. Didn't you see the polls (of less that 1% of the population).

Completely ignorant.

Listen I agree. I don't know why both could not have been addressed at the same time. I believe one is alot more important than the other. One is a need the other is a want.

I have faith in our City and it's citizens. Not our current leadership though. We'll get it right...one way is the hard way and the other is easy...Current leadership is leading down the bumpy road...

Nevermind. It's a waste of time and space to respond.

Nevermind. It's a waste of time and space to respond.

That's what I was thinking as I was typing, but I did anyway.

Most of the people on this forum have been condescending at best.

:LolLolLol

I guess they don't teach irony or hypocrisy at the police academy :tiphat:

And I bet you still wonder why people consider LEO hot tempered and abusive :wink: I guess you don't have any mirrors in your house. You've proven the stereotypes yourself! If you weren't so petulant and abusive at anyone who disagreed, people like me who claimed it wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Instead, that's all you do, thus proving everyone you claim you folks aren't. But nope, you'll just sit there and play the victim and wonder why those big mean people dare ask questions or form different opinions :(

That's what I was thinking as I was typing, but I did anyway.
Next time, iron, perhaps you will take your 1st impulse as your guide. Please.

This discussion just makes me glad I don't live in the voting area and don't have to deal with all these issues. As badly as Iron sounds when he starts trolling, he makes a solid point about working on needs vs. wants. You expand too quickly and everything goes to hell. What's worse for the city, MAPS 3 failing and not getting a central park, or schools being underfunded and crime rate increasing after it did? Perhaps more methodical, measured growth is what's needed?

And yes, there is a relation between MAPS and any future potential bonds passed, especially in a conservative state. There have been a lot of stories out there this year about different city and county services that are unable to do things they need to do because they don't have funding. The pot is limited, do you ask citizens to pay for something temporarily to get a park downtown and the start of a trolley system? Or do you ask them to pay for a jail, for juvenile services, and for public safety?

If they're willing to pay for both, then fine and good, but if people feel they are being overtaxed, regardless of what the actual tax rate is, then they're less likely to approve future projects that add to it. If I were running an essential city service and needed more funds, MAPS passing would scare me too, because it makes people less likely to want to pay more.

...The pot is limited, do you ask citizens to pay for something temporarily to get a park downtown and the start of a trolley system? Or do you ask them to pay for a jail, for juvenile services, and for public safety? ...

That's one area where the timing of this vote is critical for the City. Not to mention the time crunch by the expiring Ford tax. If they can get the wants vote approved and out of the way, the needs vote (County Jail), isn't directly their problem. On one of the MAPS 3 websites (City of Oklahoma City | Public Information & Marketing (http://okc.gov/maps3/salestax.html)) it truthfully mentions that OKC has one of the lowest combined tax rates in the Metro area, currently #16 (6th place when all of the Cities that are tied with the same tax rate). One reason for this is Oklahoma County doesn't currently have a county sales tax. But IF a county sales tax gets passed, (presuming a penny) then OKC's tax rate will be the second HIGHEST in the Metro area. Bethany, Choctaw, Harrah, Nichols Hills, The Village and Warr Acres would be tied for 1st place. Granted a county sales tax isn't guaranteed to be proposed much less passed. But a combination of sales tax and bond issue were mentioned as a possibility in an earlier article.

The Mayor spoke more than once about "voter fatigue" and proceeding with a MAPS 3 (apparently he isn't concerned with that any more). We had the General Obligation & School bond votes in late 2007, The Ford tax & Tinker bond votes in 2008... That goes with my "tipping point" theory that at some point, voters will say "enough". So if you can get your issues out there 1st, before that tipping point is reached, the better your chances are.

Not saying this is good, bad or indifferent, it is just a strategy.

I agree with the tipping point theory, and I think that's exactly why people who run city and county services may be anxious about MAPS 3. If they are forced to cut back on services, that will probably have a larger negative affect than a park or convention center will have as a positive effect.

Let's go away from police and fire for a bit. There was a story in the media a while ago about the county juvenile affairs office. They were saying that, because they don't have any money, the only thing they can afford to do is throw kids in lockup, where they're more likely to get associated with gangs and drug dealers. Other counties have half-way houses, programs, and other things that Oklahoma County doesn't, and the inability to do anything else may be creating more criminals. Is that more important to the people living here than a central park or a new convention center? Those things are nice, but one may lead to higher crime and increased stress on existing services while the other may, at some point, possibly, lead to higher tax revenues 10 years in the future.

You look at what's proposed and some of the measures seem obvious, they're attempts to attract different pockets of voters. If I were running a city service, I'd be worried about the flashy measures being passed possibly at the expense of the unsexy but necessary ones. If people are willing to pass both, fine, but until that opportunity happens I would be anxious about it.

Hawk, although what you say is true, (excluding the fact you're mixing county and city services), there will never be enough money collected anywhere to create a perfect society. Government services will always be inadequate and short staffed, short of tax rates virtually everyone here, including us Democrats, would consider unacceptable. But a city which doesn't appeal to it's residents, which is losing population, has a lower tax base and subsequently even less money to fund services. You have to create a vibrant, improving city to bring in the population to fund services, through property and sales taxes. So it's a bit of a Catch-22.

Now that OKC has developed a highly positive image and is one of the top ten cities to open a business in and rated one of the top city economies in the country, is the most recession proof, etc., the city employees want to reverse the trend? I just don't get it. They have a right to share the fruits, but not to hijack the fruit truck. It is this kind of self centered view that kept this city in poverty for the first 100 years of its history. Surly we aren't so stupid as not to learn.

Hawk, although what you say is true, (excluding the fact you're mixing county and city services), there will never be enough money collected anywhere to create a perfect society. Government services will always be inadequate and short staffed, short of tax rates virtually everyone here, including us Democrats, would consider unacceptable. But a city which doesn't appeal to it's residents, which is losing population, has a lower tax base and subsequently even less money to fund services. You have to create a vibrant, improving city to bring in the population to fund services, through property and sales taxes. So it's a bit of a Catch-22.

I include county services because they require a huge chunk of the same people as city services to approve a tax increase. You can't have a bond issue for a service for Oklahoma County if you don't win Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City will still be taxed by it, and if enough people are pissed off in the city limits, it doesn't matter how many Edmond residents want it to pass. So tax rates are related in that way. Further, aside from the Sheriff's office, county services do affect city residents. They share a lot of the same services, the jail, the juvenile affairs, the health department, ambulance services, etc. The city isn't in a bubble, it's incorrect to act as if it is.

Secondly, I never said you could collect enough money to create a perfect utopia, nor did I imply it or say we should strive to do so. In fact, trying to pretend that that's the argument is the polar opposite of what the point is, continuing to try to make that argument against supporting city services is ridiculous. I have no idea why you keep acting like that's some sort of reasonable and viable argument, it's not and never will be.

The point is that there are needs and wants for a city, and the citizens of a city need to look at what will provide the biggest impact, either negatively or positively, and address that. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's do it a different way, if you were moving to a city, what would be a bigger factor for you? If a city had a high crime rate and bad schools or if the city had sidewalks and a big park downtown? It's going to be the crime and schools, those are two of the biggest factors people look at when moving to a city. No one is saying police need a harrier jet for foot pursuits, they're saying that if city services are unable to adequately serve the citizens of a city, it won't matter how big of a central park there is, people aren't going to want to live there. People may go to the part, but they're going to live out of the city base to do that. Thus it's a whole lot bigger issue than "they'll never be perfect, we shouldn't add funding for them" like you're making it. Throwing money at the situation actually solves some problems. There's a difference between being perfect and being adequately supported. Some of the services just arent' adequately supported and you don't have to undo all the progress of the past 10 years to rectify it.

Acting like MAPS 3 as the only way the city can improve is even more short sighted. So if it doesn't win the entire city will turn to blight overnight? No, they'll try something else. And not improving other, less sexy areas may have a negative affect that far offsets any positive affect MAPS 3 might potentially have. It does no one justice if you stick your fingers in your ears and pretend like it's the only thing that can be done to make a city better.

No, they'll try something else.
That, to me, is the essence of the problem.

MAPS gives all of us who live and work in the Oklahoma City area an opportunity to participate in something very large that benefits our entire community, promotes projects that could never be undertaken in some other way, and continues the "can do, will do" attitude that has distinguished us from the rest of the country.

The opponents to MAPS want someone else to do these things for them it seems to me.

It's not the ONLY thing that will work to improve our city, but Maps3 is organized, planned out and ready to go. Every other plan in the past is self serving to a few people and their private agenda. If others have a competitive plan they should organize and promote it. Sitting back and trying to subvert other good plans without putting out a competitive plan is the chicken way out. It is easy to pick at certain details, but let's see some legitimate alternative for keeping this city growing, if indeed so many think this is an unworkable or not the best plan.

Below is a copy of questions I asked in a different post:

I think there are a couple of other questions here. How have expenses per fireman and per policeman increased? Is it possible that salaries, pensions, and benefit costs have risen faster than the funds earmarked to support them? Is it possible that the costs of hiring each individual are such that the funds theoretically available to hire additional personnel are being used to support those already employed or retired? I don't know the answers, but think the questions are at least worth asking.

The other questions I have are: How many people retire after only 20 years of service? What is the average age at which firemen retire? Do they receive a full pension for the remainder of their life, even if they retire at age 38, which seems to be about the earliest age at which a fireman can retire?

It seems to me that if people can retire well before age 65, which is the average age of retirement for most of us, and if they receive a pension for the rest of their lives, that puts a huge burden on the funds required to support a reasonably sized staff. Now, I don't know if that is the case. But, I would like to know.

Betts, you ask; How have expenses per fireman increased?

Without a doubt, expenses have increased. How come? There are many reasons. Obviously wages, healthcare, and other benefits have risen. One example of benefits would be when Firefighters incentive pay increases due to a higher level of licensure. Like going from EMT-Basic to EMT-Paramedic. Some Firefighters receive no incentive pay for EMT-Basic. EMT-Paramedic receives $140 per payday. Although that is below the average for EMT-Paramedic, it is close. The average is approximately $400 per month. Therefore, $280 per month is about 75% of what is paid around the country.

Another example of rising cost would be the high cost of protective gear, tools, and equipment. Additionally, costs for Firefighters can increase as well. Firefighters buy their own food, TV’s, newspapers, rags, paper towels, etc. Therefore, when the cost of normal household items increases the cost to Firefighters goes up because a Firefighter maintains two households. One at home and one at the Fire Station.

If the question is meant to focus on an OKC Firefighters pay, Firefighters in Oklahoma City are paid the average of 10 comparable cities within and without of the State of Oklahoma. By State law, any wage increase is based upon available funds and the City’s ability to pay.

I assure you that over the years both sides have won and lost on that caveat. There have been times where the City claimed to have no money and we have proved different. There have also been times we have claimed they did and been proved wrong. However there have been three times that I know of for sure when they made the claim and we agreed and went on down the road, quietly and peacefully.


You ask; Is it possible that salaries, pensions, and benefit costs have risen faster than the funds earmarked to support them?

Is it possible? Yes it is. However, because of the “Market” system we use it is not very probable. The City decides each year how much money will be dedicated to the Fire Department budget. Every year I was involved between 1999 and 2007 the OCFD has been told they need to submit budgets that cut a given percent from the budget. The budget does increase. However, let us say that the costs of goods, services, and capital expenditures for the rest of the world go up 5%. The Fire Chief asks for a 5% increase in his budget. The City Manager gets the budget request then says OK, but first you must submit a budget that cuts 2% out of last years budget. The Fire Chief goes back to his office and cuts some pens, paper, cancels his contract for upkeep on the copier and does not replace some of the worn out equipment that he wanted to replace.

Next year the costs of goods, services, and capital expenditures for the rest of the world go up 5%. The Fire Chief asks for a 5% increase in his budget. The City Manager gets the budget request then says OK, but first you must submit a budget that cuts 2% out of last years budget. The Fire Chief goes back to his office and hunts down a pen, finds some paper, rewrites his budget cutting back on some repairs that are needed for Fire Stations and does not replace as many of the Fire Trucks that he needed to replace. The Chief then drives down to the City offices to make copies of the budget for the City Manager because his copier no longer functions.

Next year the costs of goods, services, and capital expenditures for the rest of the world go up 5%. The Fire Chief asks for a 5% increase in his budget. The City Manager gets the budget request then says OK, but first you must submit a budget that cuts 2% out of last years budget. The Fire Chief goes back to his office and hunts down a pen, finds some paper, rewrites his budget cutting back on some repairs that are needed for Fire Stations and does not replace as many of the Fire Trucks that he needed to replace. Additionally, he closes a Fire Station because it has been condemned due to lack of maintenance and repairs. There are two Stations currently closed, 6s and 7s, not to mention the 2 that should have been built from the 2000 bond election. Lets not forget the 2007 bond election that calls for 3 more; hopefully we will have those by 2020.



This pattern continues for ten years with the current City Manager. At some point, there are not sufficient supplies. The Firefighters have no parts for the rigs that need repair and some rigs are inoperable. Every Fire Station in the city is in some state of disrepair. From time to time over the years it has become so bad, I have seen times when a Station had to beg and borrow (or steal) toilet paper from another Station. Manpower has been reduced to a level of 904 that is well below the 948 number the City promised the citizens to get a ¾ cent dedicated sales tax for public safety, and way below the 999 we had in 1999.

Then an economic downturn hits and the City Manager asks for a 2% cut on a budget that was cut 2% at the start of the year. The Fire Chief has nowhere to cut. Therefore, he starts sending Firefighters home. Response times increase because Firefighters respond on broken down rigs and use equipment that is worn out and in need of replacement. Lives and property are lost but the City Council loves this City Manager because no City Manager is able to run a City as cheaply as he can and they are so detached from the citizens they are supposed to serve they do not see the problems.

Councilmen\Councilwomen sweep in make a speech and as citizens are discussing the issues the City is facing they get in their cars and leave. They do not need to be there because the City Staff will give Council a report on how the citizens love the job they are doing. Council members then get in their cars leaving a council meeting feeling all warm and fuzzy and hear on the radio that Firefighters are unhappy.

They do not like Firefighters because they are not making them feel warm and fuzzy like the manager. Council then goes to the manager and tells him he better get these Firefighters in line. The manager then threatens the Firefighters with further cuts if they do not fall in line with his version of city management. He does that on the same day as a significant amount of money is transferred to the general fund from the ¾ cent public safety sales tax fund. The manager then reports to the Council and media that these Firefighters are bankrupting this City. The manager does the above while starting his reign at less than $100,000 per year. He is currently making approximately $250,000 per year. Doing all of this while sitting on 36 million dollars of unencumbered funds.

Need I go on? Probably not.


You ask; Is it possible that the costs of hiring each individual are such that the funds theoretically available to hire additional personnel are being used to support those already employed or retired?

See the answer above. There is a point where funds are not available when the above system of management is practiced. We are at a point when service to the citizenry is diminished. Firefighters have a hard time dealing with that when money that is intended to fund the Fire service is diverted to non-core pet projects or private economic development. The funds are not theoretically available. The funds are available. They are just not used for city services. The funds are redirected to the items the Manager and Council find more important than city services. Case in point the City’s handling of the ¾ cent sales tax and G.O. bond issues. I will leave those for another time.

However, I will leave you with this one example. Simply put the ¾ cent sales tax was meant to fund, hire, train, and equip a minimum of 200 additional Firefighters over and above 748. In 2003, they were paying for 170 +/- Firefighters and 14 secretaries out of that fund, with plans to add 10 secretaries to the ¾ sales tax budget in 03/04. IMHO those actions show a blatant disregard for the wishes of the Citizens. However, I have no doubt some will disagree with my opinion.

Sorry for the long post

It's not the ONLY thing that will work to improve our city, but Maps3 is organized, planned out and ready to go. Every other plan in the past is self serving to a few people and their private agenda. If others have a competitive plan they should organize and promote it. Sitting back and trying to subvert other good plans without putting out a competitive plan is the chicken way out. It is easy to pick at certain details, but let's see some legitimate alternative for keeping this city growing, if indeed so many think this is an unworkable or not the best plan.As of last Thursday the Firefighters have presented the City with a fair and honest plan. The plan offers a solution to their problems. Lets see how the City responds.

My opinion is that the unions don't think that sinking MAPS will cause voters to go out and give them a raise. It is clear that this is a strong-arm political tactic... they're hoping it will cause our city government to cave and give them what they are asking for without a public vote, and that they can wrap all of this up soon without actually having to do a front-on assault of MAPS 3. Since neither side probably wants to be attached to a MAPS failure, I would say they probably have a decent shot at getting their way.

It's pretty obvious what is going on. It doesn't take a detective to figure it out.

My opinion is that the unions don't think that sinking MAPS will cause voters to go out and give them a raise. It is clear that this is a strong-arm political tactic... they're hoping it will cause our city government to cave and give them what they are asking for without a public vote, and that they can wrap all of this up soon without actually having to do a front-on assault of MAPS 3. Since neither side probably wants to be attached to a MAPS failure, I would say they probably have a decent shot at getting their way.

It's pretty obvious what is going on. It doesn't take a detective to figure it out.I think your right. I don't believe they are thinking that either.

My opinion is that the unions don't think that sinking MAPS will cause voters to go out and give them a raise. It is clear that this is a strong-arm political tactic... they're hoping it will cause our city government to cave and give them what they are asking for without a public vote, and that they can wrap all of this up soon without actually having to do a front-on assault of MAPS 3. Since neither side probably wants to be attached to a MAPS failure, I would say they probably have a decent shot at getting their way.

It's pretty obvious what is going on. It doesn't take a detective to figure it out.In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?

In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?
Is it all about being right?

That, to me, is the essence of the problem.

MAPS gives all of us who live and work in the Oklahoma City area an opportunity to participate in something very large that benefits our entire community, promotes projects that could never be undertaken in some other way, and continues the "can do, will do" attitude that has distinguished us from the rest of the country.

The opponents to MAPS want someone else to do these things for them it seems to me.

I'm not saying someone else would do, I'm saying the city would. If MAPS failed, city leaders wouldn't sit in the corner and cry about it, they'd be immediately working on how they could get it passed. The only difference is that they'd look at those who complained about what it did or didn't include and see what they could do to appease them. That's why I think the notion of it failing destroying growth is wrong.

If it failed, they'd be right back to try to get something passed again.

Lotta words...Smells like Boo.. Hoo.. Hoo.. When you choice a career, do you not know what your going to get paid? I want better money, better conditions (if I deserve it) but ,I don't demand that I get it. when it gets to that point--bail.. Hey..I do the best I can but, I don't whine..whine..whine..about it. If you don't like it get out. Politics make me sick.

Is it all about being right?I'm not sure I'm following you. Right about what?

Lotta words...Smells like Boo.. Hoo.. Hoo.. When you choice a career, do you not know what your going to get paid? I want better money, better conditions (if I deserve it) but ,I don't demand that I get it. when it gets to that point--bail.. Hey..I do the best I can but, I don't whine..whine..whine..about it. If you don't like it get out. Politics make me sick.Thanks for the advice.

No Prob...

Current Oklahoma Representative Mike Reynolds & former Representative Wanda Jo Stapleton join the list of persons speaking out against MAPS 3. Check out the podcast entries at www.okcissues.com.

If this website does not work for you visit You Tube at the following links:
Mike Reynolds interview
YouTube - MAPS 3 / Representative Mike Reynolds Speaks On KTOK (Part 1) - www.okcissues.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyyTPVrK9bc)
YouTube - MAPS 3 / Representative Mike Reynolds Speaks On KTOK (Part 2) - www.okcissues.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPKs44Q12oQ)

Wanda Jo Stapleton
YouTube - MAPS 3 / Wanda Jo Stapleton Speaks On KTOK Radio - www.okcissues.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX6kCNrH-wk)

Wanda Jo doesn't lend credibilty to any issue. On the contrary.....

In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?

Great Question? No takers though.

If Devon, Cheasapeake, or the Chamber of Commerce members all came out publically and asked that the Mayor and Counsel address Public Safety immediately, I wonder how fast it would be addressed?

Answer the question logically and you'll soon get who's steering this city and it's not the citizens.

Wanda Jo doesn't lend credibilty to any issue. On the contrary.....
Today 02:00 AM

Betts who is credible in your opinion? Your list and some of the rest on this site is dwindling as you are discrediting every person with an opposing opinion.

I respect your opinion, despite not understanding your logic behind it.

Come on now. Not everyone with an opposing opinion is non credible.

Great Question? No takers though.

If Devon, Cheasapeake, or the Chamber of Commerce members all came out publically and asked that the Mayor and Counsel address Public Safety immediately, I wonder how fast it would be addressed?

Answer the question logically and you'll soon get who's steering this city and it's not the citizens.

Sure...using your logic, the fact that they haven't indicates they dont see it as a big area of need and I'm not convinced it is either.

Where is the outcry from citizens about a lack of police and fire protection? Other than the unions and its members, it appears to be a non-issue with the general public and the media.

You and others want to try and paint this as an imminent crisis, where in reality, at least as it pertains to firefighters, it appears to primarily be about a small raise and an issue of having to work overtime which is mandated in the unions contract anyway.


The firefighters' frequent time-and-a-half overtime payments are legally required by federal labor laws and the annual collective bargaining agreement between the city and firefighter union.

As a result, nearly every city firefighter collected overtime between July 2008 and July 2009. Firefighters received overtime pay regardless of whether they worked more than scheduled because their union contract guarantees regularly scheduled overtime.

Because overtime hours are part of their regular schedule, firefighters often collect overtime while on vacation or personal leave.

Ward 1 Councilman Gary Marrs, a former fire chief, said it's not uncommon for city officials to gripe about firefighters collecting overtime "while sitting on a beach somewhere."

"The kind of contract they have, you couldn't find it in the private sector," White said. "It's easy to ask: 'Why are we doing this? How did we get into a situation to where we're paying people for time they're not working?'"

Read more: NewsOK (http://newsok.com/burningthroughmoney#ixzz0WNVpjgVK)

The unions threats against the city on the MAPS issue will backfire if they are successful in defeating the measure and will only serve to create a lot of ill will and a segment of the citizenry opposed to them that didn't exist previously.

In your opinion is there any chance the City may be somewhat culpable for some of this unfortunate situation?

I guess my opinion is that when talks break down to the point where a scorched earth policy seems like the way out then both sides are probably culpable to some degree. If I'm trying to negotiate with someone on a business matter and they throw up their hands and walk away... yeah I'd probably be hacked off at them, but at the same time I'd really be doing some soul searching asking myself how the heck I allowed things to get to this point.

I'm kind of a big fan of "beer diplomacy" myself. Kind of hard to "screw the guy in the other department" when he's your best drinking bud. :Smiley036