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Thread: OKC Commuter Rail

  1. #1

    Default OKC Commuter Rail

    The commuter rail line us forumers and city leaders always talk about involves the existing corridor from Edmond south to Norman. In most places it is either one of two tracks with heavy rail freight traffic during the day, which would probably necisitate building another track just for commuter trains.

    Here are what I see as the potential stops for such a commuter rail service and the potential for urban development around them:

    DOWNTOWN EDMOND
    The northern point on the line, the downtown area already has a number of shops and restaurants, is close to UCO, and is near the center of town for commuters doing park-n-ride. Future TOD (yellow box) could include loft apartments and more retail for the downtown area.


    NORTH OKC
    This location could be anywhere along the line as it goes through sprawly north OKC, I picked the slighly denser residential area at Classen and Wilshire because it a mixed-use TOD could really do well in this area devoid of much retail development. Higher density apartments, mixed retail, and a parking garage would rise from the under-utilized light industrial surroundings here. Is this a good place for a station serving the northern part of OKC?


    MIDTOWN
    An already dense area of the city could be made denser with a station nearby. This station would connect the urban Paseo district/neighborhood along 23rd Street to the Capital District, which could denser with more mixed-use development and residential.


    DOWNTOWN OKC
    This is the main station and would require an enlarged Santa Fe Depot to act as an intermodal facility for commuter trains, buses/trolleys, and taxis in downtown. The perfect place for a TOD as Bricktown is adjacent to the station, where retail/restaurant/residential activity will only increase, and the convention center and Ford Center are within walking distance, as are the OKC Museum of Art, downtown library, and the central business district.


    CAPITOL HILL
    This station, in an area where a lot of residents already use the bus system, could help continue to revitalize the historic Capitol Hill area and make Riverside (to the north across the river) more attractive to development. A station on Commerce Street (SW 25th) could aid in urbanizing this street, which is already urban as you go just west of Shields.


    CROSSROADS
    As I mentioned in another thread, a TOD is the only way to really save Crossroads Mall. In several cities they have turned antiquated indoor malls into revitalized TOD's, I don't see why Crossroads would be any different. A mix of mall retail/restaurants, housing, and parking could really transform the Crossroads area of OKC.


    DOWNTOWN MOORE
    A station here could revitalize Moore's under-utilized downtown area, bringing the "center" of Moore away from the strip malls along I-35. A mix of housing and retail, along with a parking garage for park-n-ride, would complement this station.


    DOWNTOWN NORMAN
    Like in Moore, a station could help continue to revitalize Norman's beautiful Main Street area with a mix of housing, retail, restaurants, and entertainment within a short distance of the Campus Corner district. Norman's historic train depot would make a great station and could be used for connections to Amtrak and CART buses.


    UNIVERSITY OF OKLAHOMA
    The southern point of the line, this would serve a proposed "East Campus" development that would include new academic buildings and student housing next to the OU campus and Memorial Stadium. OU architecture students have already designed proposals for such a station that would mainly serve OU students and faculty but also residents in this dense part of Norman and people traveling to campus for football games.



    Your thoughts/suggestions?

  2. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    Sounds like a great plan. I'm impressed with your work. I do have a couple questions, though. Is there a good area between your Edmond stop and your Nichols Hills area stop? Also, is there any potential north of the Edmond stop for future growth? I drove up through that area a few weeks ago and was greatly surprised how many homes were up there, finished and under construction.

  3. #3

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    It woudln't fly. Those are heavily used freight rail roads. And the deal with commuter rail is that it runs during commuter hours to maximize efficiency, and I swear the only time I ever run into a train is during Rush Hour.

    I think adjoining the commuter rail lines alongside I 35 and I 235 would be a better use of space, and could improve aesthetics along that really horrible stretch of I 35, and something has to be done to bring in denser development along I 35 south of 240 and on 235 north of I 44.

    It's not as if Moore is not doing anything about their downtown. Just last year the city council adopted a city code that makes it easier to condemn certain properties, the Broadway streetscape will be done in a few months, and they will soon start construction on a traffic circle at Main and Broadway.

  4. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I have always loved your idea!

    The success of Dallas' DART is a good example of commuter rail in a "car city." What do you think of DART?



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  5. #5

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    Yes, Dallas' DART system and Denver's TRAX are good examples for OKC to follow. Both include extensive commuter lines (far more miles than Edmond-Norman) and started as simply another option for commuters coming into the inner city. The success of any commuter line though is in the TOD's at each station which actually encourage people to live/work/shop/eat/play near transit. Just getting a fraction (to start) of OKC's Metro population to be more transit-oriented would be worth the cost in the overall improvement in the quality of life and reduced pollution. Rail should be part of any new bond/sales tax package that goes before OKC and Metro voters. The feds would pay for a good part of it if our congressmen demand it.

    Any good commuter line should be paired with a good inner city light rail/streetcar line. This is my proposal for LRT in and around downtown OKC, a "circular" concept that connects established areas in the center city like the CBD, Ford Center, Bricktown, St. Anthony's, OUHSC, etc. with growing areas like the Arts District, Riverside, The Triangle, Midtown, and the Asian District. For more info. see this thread: http://www.okctalk.com/okc-metro-are...ht-rail-5.html

  6. #6

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    In adittion to commuter service - the trains could also serve special events - OU football, Hornets games, concerts at the Ford Center, and other events. The one problems is the size of the Santa Fe station. I just don't think it is big enough. An underground station would probably have to be built. It could even connect directly to an expanded metro concourse.

    I wouldn't worry about congestion from freight traffic. The railroad is supposed to be double-tracked over the next few years. How many trains a day go through downtown OKC? A system like Colorado railcar is not very expensive to implement and could be up and running in just a few months.

  7. #7

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I rather like Saint Louis' commuter rail tracks alongside the freeways. It proves the impossible: that dense development CAN occur along suburban freeways.

    Writerranger: Would you be wanting the private sector to build these DART lines?

  8. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    I rather like Saint Louis' commuter rail tracks alongside the freeways. It proves the impossible: that dense development CAN occur along suburban freeways.

    Writerranger: Would you be wanting the private sector to build these DART lines?
    No. That's why they call it public transportation. A metro-wide system would obviously have to be a united municipal effort. However, I believe some cities have private operation of mass transit (with appropriate leasing arrangements).

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  9. #9

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I would argue Disney's parks have turned out better than if they allowed the local municipalities to build their roads, streetcars,. etc.
    Your words.

  10. #10
    MadMonk Guest

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I can see how some might like it, but I know I'd never use it. I like coming and going on my own schedule, not the train's.

    What's TOD stand for anyway?

  11. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
    Your words.
    Spartan, Let's be fair. In the quote you pulled from another post, I was referring to the Riverside development. That's very different than a metro-wide commuter rail system that would involve multiple municipalities.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I don't see how.

  13. #13

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I especially like your inclusion of Norman's old-town Main Street: I'd not thought about that. Of course, I'm sure that any such service would link OKC to Norman's Main Street/I35 intersection, but I'd not considered the possibility that it might continue on through old Norman and terminate at OU.

    Great work, very visionary.

  14. #14

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    This here is a map of a system that I've long advocated, but I'm considering changing it now, and adding the more recent after thoughts of spending a little extra on seperate lines, and running them adjacent to the freeways. Hey, if you seriously believe that it's not cost-efficient to build commuter rail lines, you're under a whole lotta bull.



    These stops are designed to be more convenient to people living in developments spawned by the existance of these lines, than to people driving, parking, and riding, to whom it would also be convenient to. In other words, my idea has more stops than Brent's.

  15. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    The idea is really attractive and there are some great vacant sites for big, really nice TODs, but we'd definitely have to do a lot of feasability studies on freight traffic combined with commuter traffic and the potential for added rail lanes along the Santa Fe right of way. I really liked your station locations, especially the N. OKC and Crossroads stations... those would make incredible TOD sites.

  16. #16

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    Who is 'you' in your post, Shane?

  17. #17

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    The thing about the BNSF right-of-way is that there is room to build another track alongside the heavy freight lines, which are some the busiest in the nation. Also there is already somewhat dense development (like downtown Edmond, Moore, and Norman which are right by the BNSF tracks) and more TOD (transit-oriented development) potential than by the highways.

    And MadMonk, of course there will be people who never use the commuter rail. There are people in New York who don't use public transit, they have their own cars. But providing the city and its suburbs with another option is important and there will be a significant number of people who WILL use the commuter train and especially will if each station is like a shopping/dining/housing area in itself, the definition of a TOD.

  18. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I was talking about BG's station proposals.

    Is there enough room for additional tracks even in the elevated portions of BNSF near downtown?

  19. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    In the Stillwater Newspress an article was included discussing a pending design to implement light rail in Okc mentioning K.C. & Little Rock are on the ball ahead of us & that we need to stay current with the growing mass transit trend. OKC's chamber head (i believe roy williams?) quoted that this is something okc will need considering our current metro transit accomodates only 1/3 of the willing transit riders. my opinion... five years & this will be under construction.

  20. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    That article (or one VERY similar) was also in the Oklahoman. It said, as I've thought before, that OKC just needs a "champion" of mass transit to get the ball rolling. The studies are complete, they show we can support light rail... It just takes someone who will step up to the plate and start lining up funding methods- hopefully a voter-approved sales tax. I think Mick could be nearing the point where he wants to see rail transit in the metro, after hearing certain comments from him that allude to it.

  21. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I think we all need to keep in mind two things:

    1) Commuter Rail is different than light rail

    2) Which type is best for OKC.

    Commuter Rail is different than light rail in that CR uses long haul, often diesel locomotives, with dedicated stations. The cars themselves are "heavy" hence the term heavy rail. Commuter Rail is set up to transport suburban commuters into the city, downtown, and/or major employment point(s).

    Light Rail is often called "Light Rail Trolley" or Trams or Streetcar, depending upon the right-of-way and types of vehicles. The common theme of Light Rail lines is that most are electric with overhead catenary lines and the vehicles themselves are "light" and usually modern. There are "heavy" light rail systems with dedicated track that act as commuter systems - like Portland's MAX, Dallas DART, however most common lines are circular sytems in the inner city/downtown areas to assist people in moving around - like Portland's Streetcar network.

    Which type of system does OKC need?

    Commuter rail would necessitate the use of dedicated rail lines and stops at train stations - since the vehicles are heavy and can not co-exist with regular traffic. Typically, these CR lines are found in the largest of cities that have extensive suburbs that require transit to downtown: Chicago's METRA Rail, Vancouver's West Coast Express, San Fran's CalTrain are examples. These systems are almost very similar to AMTRAK except that the insides are set up to accommodate volume of pax (versus long distance "comforts" of AMTRAK) and pax usually have two levels to sit per car.

    "Heavy" Light Rail can co-exist with regular traffic and usually follows major thoroughfares or Interstates. These systems, while their capacity is usually smaller than Commuter Rail, "act" as commuter systems for less extensive suburb areas where ridership would not be that great. They also provide flexibility in that the lines often veer into the regular automotive right-of-ways and therefore does NOT require train stations but instead light rail platforms. Denver's new system is a perfect example of this.

    Light Rail trolley's are the most common use of light rail technology. The vehicles are usually similar in capacity to a bus yet much more efficient. And trolley's reside exclusively in automotive right-of-way and have stops (not stations) on small platforms on the side of the road (like a bus stop). Trolley's could be modern low floor vehicles (like Portland's Streetcar), modern or heritage single vehicle tram (like TTC in Toronto or Little Rock or OKC's old Classen Streetcar), or something inbetween. The important difference of trolleys is that they are very frequent and circulate passengers using small vehicles in dense areas (or areas that become dense due to the Trolley line).

    So which is best for OKC?

    Since we don't yet have very many commuters, I think OKC should start with a light rail trolley circular that runs in downtown and maybe has "streetcar" type extensions up Classen to the Asia District and OCU, over to the Health District and State Capitol, down to the Riverside and Capitol Hill districts, and perhaps on to the Meridian Corridor, State Fair Park, and Stockyard City.

    The key of this idea is that 1) the initial line would begin in downtown and would circulate the major downtown districts and 2) would be very inexpensive since all would be needed is track inst on existing street right of way and modernization of the traffic network (of course). The stations themselves would be very similar to the existing bus stops.

    I'd envision a line that begins at the OKC Transit Center go down Walker to Sheridan or Reno over to Bricktown up to Deep Duece and Triangle turn into Automobile Alley and keep going into Midtown then turn back into downtown toward the OKC Transit Center. This circular would have stops at major attractions/employers along the way. There could also be a track running down Broadway connecting the two ends of the circle (Reno and 13th street?) that could provide a RUSH Hour/express into the CBD. Basically, the first line would replace Metro's Spirit bus trolley with a Rail trolley on fixed guideway - very inexpensive yet would be very welcome/necessary in downtown.

    OKC could even do like Tacoma did in building a major parking garage system for autos to park and pax to hop on the trolley into downtown for work/play/shopping/etc. That is why I questioned the location of the OKC Transit Center as it only seems to be bus oriented but then again the light rail could stop there and use it as its central point.

    This trolley system should be part of MAPS III using a combo of Federal dollars for the traffic system and sales tax for everything else and would cost less than $100M (probably only $50M in OKC) yet provide SIGNIFICANT benefit to the densification of downtown and the inner city. Portland Streetcar is the perfect example of what I'm talking about here - it provided a complete renaissance to downtown Portland and should be "copied" for OKC.

    Extensions to OKC's central trolley line should be added to Asia District/OCU and the Health Center/State Capital after the circular line is complete. The southern extensions to Riverside/Capitol Hill and Meridian/Fair Park/Stockyard City could be added once I-40 ist complete.

    The best use would be two new circles that spin off the downtown ones (in other words, spin off from Midtown up Classen to 30th over to Blackwelder down to 23rd over to Lincoln down to 13th over into the HSC district over to the Research District and OSSM down back across 13th into Midtown and/or down Lincoln into Deep Duece/Triangle connecting to the main circular) BUT the spin offs could be single lines up Classen to Blackwelder to OCU and over 13th into the HSC up Lincoln to the capital. The former would be more comprehensive and certainly add to the inner city density with the latter being less expensive.

    Whatever the case, I think OKC should start with a circular trolley line then perhaps consider Heavy Rail (Commuter Rail) or Heavy Light Rail to Edmond and Norman once the inner city and Downtown rebuild/expand its employment reach.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  22. #22
    Patrick Guest

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I honestly don't think OKC is ready for commuter rail YET. But, we may need it someday. Until our highways get really really really congested, the need just isn't there. Just my 2 cents.

  23. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    Patrick I agree.

    That is why I noted that OKC should start with a trolley circular with extensions in the inner city. Once downtown grows above 20K residents and the inner inner city gets above 100K, then the metro could implement a commuter system (heavy or "heavy" light rail).

    But to start, OKC should get a downtown circular trolley built immediately!!!
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  24. #24

    Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    I agree with that, buth both LRT and CRT should be PLANNED at the same time. LRT would be a good start to build up densities downtown but CRT would need to follow quickly behind. As downtown builds up in density it is important to limit sprawl in suburbs which is what CRT would help do.

  25. Default Re: OKC Commuter Rail

    Hot Rod.....

    Not sure how I come down when it comes to type, routes, etc., but wanted to thank you for the informative post that can help with the brainstorming. Good job!

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