OKC Commuter Rail

[foodiefan]

. . .anyone thinking about the "Park and Ride" that you see in the DC area?? Seems that might be at least a place to start.

[sgray]

BG918, would you PM me as I would like to discuss some ideas I have on this subject and some tough sketches I have made as well.

[mheaton76]

Hey everybody , there is a really great NYT article today that discusses the huge jump in ridership in cities like ours that have light rail - Charlotte, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/10/bu...ransit.html?hp


www.unitedstatesofmichael.com

[veritas]

The problem with light rail ever coming to fruition is the population density between downtown and the suburbs. For example, running a line to Norman from downtown one would have to bridge a relatively sparsely populated area in and around the Crossroads mall/SE OKC portion of the city.

For light rail designers, this issue would pose a cost problem because of the lack of density. There is a magic number of density that light rail has to serve before it can become a somewhat self-sustaining and cost effective proposal. Until development takes place in these "in-fill" areas, I would be surprised if light rail could ever really become feasable.

Rather, what I foresee is a test area or something like that running from downtown to Bricktown then to either or both the Golden Triangle area and new Core to Shore development area. This would provide a small scale building block for future expansion while generating public interest and approval.

/2 cents

[HOT ROD]

But, Crossroads is a TOD in waiting and could serve as a MAJOR Park N Ride stop. It is also a destination, given its status as a retail core. As I've said earlier we should do the following:

Commuter Rail (Heavy Rail) - by adding track so not to interfere with Freight Ops, we need the following stops; Guthrie downtown, S. Guthrie PnR, Edmond downtown area, S. Edmond PnR, Britton station, Chesapeake station, Capitol station, Santa Fe station Downtown, then on to Capital Hill station, Crossroads PnR, Moore downtown, Norman downtown, S. University PnR, Purcell.

This would be the first two lines which would unite the metro area having stops at major employment and population centers and destinations. The routing works PERFECTLY to feed downtown with the rest of the metro, allowing people in Guthrie and Purcell to feasibly participate in downtown and the metro area's renaissance.

The major expense would be adding track for crossovers and the building of station platforms. If done right, the stations could serve or add to community amenity like a city hall and/or library. I'd also expect TOD style housing options to spring up, as well as quality retail within walking distance from many of the stations.

Light Rail Transit: These trains use dedicated track but often could mix in with existing traffic. They use high floor platforms but tend to have more stops than heavy commuter rail. LRT would be useful in the inner city mostly, with the most prominent line connecting the NW Business district to Downtown. It could also establish the E-W corridor (since Heavy Rail might not be feasible) as well as run down to the International Airport then on to Mustang or Chickasha.

Light Rail - Streetcar/Tram Trolley - these trains (some people call them glorified busses) create density due to their running in existing streets and having numerous stops. This makes them especially valuable in downtown - creating a critical mass and serving numerous destinations. We could also have a streetcar line run from downtown to OCU and the Asia district (creating density along the way), downtown to the Capitol district and the Health Center (of course), and downtown to Core2Shore/downtown south to Capital Hill to Stockyard City to Fairgrounds to Meridian (also creating density along the way). We wouldn't want this to go to the airport because it would take quite a long time to get there.

So, to recapture:

Heavy Commuter Rail uses trains similar to Amtrak and are useful for carrying large numbers of pax long distances. They tend to have a small amount of stops at stations and PnR strategically positioned to funnel people into and/or at major employment/shopping/entertainment destinations. The idea of Commuter Rail would be to unite the metro area, from Guthrie and Purcell to Downtown: perhaps continuing north on to Stillwater. And since there would be a number of major destination stops (Downtown, Capitol, OU, Crossroads, Chesapeake) the trains would run up and down all of the day, with rush hours service being most frequent. The service would end roughly at 11am and start at 5am from the suburbs into downtown.

Light Rail uses smaller vehicles than Heavy Rail. These trains have individual motors and tend to be electric with overhead catenary wires. Light Rail differs from Subways in that subways tend to have more connected cars, tend to be underground, and definitely have separate right of way as the power comes from a third rail. However, OKC's system would be a Portland MAX style light rail which is a commuter style line which often would mix with the existing streets esp in the suburbs. It would be useful mostly to run EW from downtown since heavy rail is not too feasible. It could also run to the airport. Light rail has more stops than commuter rail but they tend to serve denser areas. Ill leave it up to BG or others more familiar with the city to lay out this particular line.

Streetcar/Light Rail Trolley/Tram - these are the smallest light rail vehicles and are used in high density/traffic areas OR to create such. I think this is NEEDED badly in downtown Oklahoma City - to create the urban pedestrian vibe that all of us desire. These are also the cheapest to implement, and have the most bang for the buck - in that they create density OR manage it if the area is already dense. Who cares if it is considered a glorified bus or whatever, OKC needs this!!!

In OKC's case, I think the EASIEST and CHEAPEST thing to implement - would be for the state to buy a commuter train ($10M if that) and start the line running from Guthrie to Norman, stopping at Downtown, Crossroads, and possibly S. Edmond. These stops either already exist OR could easily and quickly be implemented and are necessary to funnel commuters into the system. This line could be done TODAY!!!! Later, we could shell in the other stations and twin the track/dedicate CR track as the OCCaR (Oklahoma City Commuter Rail) AND DOWNTOWN becomes increasingly more popular.

I hope Maps III has the downtown Streetcar lines (and I suspect it will). I just think we should think big and not just have a demonstrator line and expanding it in such a long horizon (like the METRO study suggests). Maps III should circulate all of downtown in its first incarnation. Then it could be expanded to the Health Center/Capitol campus, Asia District/OCU/Paseo, and Capital Hill. Again, the idea of the Streetcar Tram system is to CREATE density and manage it once it arrives. Take a look at Portland Streetcar if you need any idea of what this could do for Oklahoma City. It creates critical mass, which is required for large companies being downtown as well as the retail, hotel/housing, and entertainment draws!

These two methods alone - would create density and make downtown viable and get lots of people out of their cars, not that the metro has a problem with it now. It MAKES DOWNTOWN into a permanent destinationm, since it feeds downtown with suburbanites.

It also makes it feasible for someone living in Guthrie to work in downtown or go to school at OU or the Health Center. It also makes it possible for special events downtown like the NBA, major sports events, concerts, conventions, and festivals - all taking place downtown. This is very desireable.

One more point, it also could save Crossroads Mall. With a commuter rail stop (and I admit, it would be extremely cheap to build one there), you could not only have an instant 'what' 25,000 space parking lot to PnR from but also it's possible that those cars might shop at the mall or live in the housing that would sprout up (which would allow them to shop at the mall). At the same time, the mall could reinvent itself and enhance its role as the top retail anchor of the southside. I see it as a win-win situation for them - the city needs the parking spots, the mall needs the incidental trips that CR would initiate.

[mmonroe]

I was told, this pertains to the Tinker area, that they will never remove the tracks because in a time of war, if necessary, they would need another way to ship goods in and out of the base. The only problem I see is the lack of upkeep. If these lines doubled as commuter rail, then, God forbid, we ever get as far as needing to ship supplies in and out of the base, that everything would already be in place for something like this.

Eh.. just some late night food for thought.

[veritas]

All planning is pie in the sky until the study that is currently being commissioned is done. I believe that MAPS III has a dollar amount dedicated to studying this issue. Don't get me wrong, I'd love a commuter rail system. But we're likely 15 years out from seeing any movement.

However, the Urban Land Institute does predict that the population of OKC will double in the next 25-30 years so planning for such growth would be prudent now.

[jbrown84]

veritas, the Fixed Guideway Study is complete.

OKFGS.org

[plmccordj]

I'll get excited about a train when we can get a decent bus system. An everyday bus system is fundamental to every city. I have nothing against trains but to at $3.60 per gallon for gas, ordinary citizens should have the option of riding a bus to work if they choose. Oklahoma City should be ashamed that in 2008 you cannot even catch a bus to the largest single site employer in the state, Tinker AFB.

[jbrown84]

I hear ridership on the city buses is up 40%.

[mmonroe]

it would be a long walk everyday to go from the gate to building 3001 and back again.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I just got in from a week in Boston. They've got subways and light rail out the ass . . . have had for about a hundred years. Not just in the inner-city part, but lines stretching miles out into the burbs with stations that have lots that park hundreds of cars. Yeah, I know. . . we're not Boston . . . OK, we're not . . . never will be, but OKC should have commuter rail on the drawing boards for tracks from Norman through OKC to Edmond and Guthrie right now . . . right now . . . and be planning a crossing line to Tinker and Yukon/El Reno. No city of any size, even OKC's 1.5Mill Metro has a chance in the future without rail . . . Not only that, Oklahoma is throwing away it's chance of being a national heavy rail crossroads by ripping out the Union Station railyard. It's pathetic. The development along DART in Dallas is off the charts and Huston's light rail line down Main Street is spawning hundreds of new townhouses and apartments. Here we sit with our heads in the sand . . . oh boy the Sonics are coming the Sonics are coming . . . give me a break . . . so to get to a game, thousands of people will pile in their SUVs and guzzle thousands of gallons of $5 gasoline rather than pull out a transit pass, get on the train and not have to worry about parking or walking very far . . . is there something wrong with this picture . . . big league my Aunt Fanny . . . or is it just me?

[OKCisOK4me]

Not only that, Oklahoma is throwing away it's chance of being a national heavy rail crossroads by ripping out the Union Station railyard. It's pathetic.

Below are two pictures with the same scaling from MSN Terraserver:



Bailey Yard, North Platt, Nebraska. This yard stretches over 7 miles and is KEY to Union Pacific operations.



Our little tiny yard that you consider KEY.

I'm confused...

[metro]

I hear ridership on the city buses is up 40%.

jbrown, how accurate is that number? I bet if it was up that high, we'd be hearing about it and Metro Transit would be talking about expanding routes, etc. Heck, we can't even get the downtown trolleys (MAPS 1 project designed to be expanded upon but haven't) to go north of NW 4th street. It's a no brainer that they should have a Broadway to NW 10th loop and then over to St. Anthony's and Plaza Court at a bare minimum. It also would be nice if they'd stop at all the downtown housing developments. If they want riders, they need to go to the people.

[Kerry]

Thank you OKCisOK4me. What is all of this fascination with a decrepit old rail yard? Let it go already. That facility is too small to do anything useful with. At best it could be a stop on some kind of rail line but no way could it ever serve again as a main transit facility/hub of any kind. Five Points Station on MARTA is underground and it dwarfs the Union Pacific station. This is not 1945!!!!

[Tom Elmore]

Hi, folks.

Tom Elmore here.

This is not 1945?

You're correct. In 1945, OKC still had something of a multimodal transportation system -- which we all now wish we had back. Through August of that year, that system was very busy helping the nation mount the greatest logistical feat in history, supporting victory in WWII.

According to historians, 1946 was the big bosses acquiesced to GM's "National Cities Lines" front to throw our trolleys and interurbans away -- much like what ODOT has been trying to do to Union Station since the late 1990s.

Anybody learn anything from that? (I wonder how many of the local officials who facilitated that got "GM auto dealerships...")

So why are we allowing ODOT to pretend it's "1955?"

Isn't "$40 billion in unfunded highway maintenance need" enough?

OKC Union Station yard is "too small" to be a modern, multimodal passenger transportation center? And the "proof" is comparison is UP's Bailey Yard, largest freight rail classification yard in the world?

As kindly as I might, friends, I'd observe that we will never find the answers if we don't understand the questions.

OKC Union Station yard is six blocks long, 200 feet wide. It is a textbook basis for an effective urban multimodal hub.

We would no more expect heavy freight classification to take place in such a facility than we would consider moving the airport downtown.

Union Station's yard is a passenger yard with generous freight rail bypass capacity which also perfectly accomodates and bypasses city street traffic.

Here, fast intercity passenger trains -- supported by First Class Mail and express freight -- would interface with regional and local train and bus services while simultaneously allowing free flow of the specific, specialized freight services required to support passenger traffic.

To the west southwest, the yard links to Will Rogers Airport. To the east, it links to heavy freight yards of several commercial railroads and to Tinker AFB.

It is near enough to the Central Business District to be handy -- but not so close as to add to the natural congestion of such an area. Downtown, Bricktown, the Capitol, Capitol Hill, Stockyards, etc. would be or linked or sub-linked via bus and trolleys (real trolleys).

ODOT has cleared a good deal more area parallel to the Union Station yard than already existed there. So far, nothing ODOT has done would interfere with hub development at Union Station. As far as I'm concerned, they've spent a lot of money on potential multimodal development -- which it's now undoubtedly clear to all is urgently needed -- that they would never have spent this way if asked to do so.

Part of this is the upgrading of the old east-west "Packingtown Lead" south of the river -- which, with a few more additions, could allow north-south passenger trains on the BNSF Red Rock Subdivision to conveniently use Union Station.

It's up to the citizenry to see to it that the right thing is done from here on in.

TOM ELMORE

[The Old Downtown Guy]

I'm sorry if I disturbed anyone by including a remark in a previous post that the Union Station rail yard might be important. I know it's so much easier to just shoot from the hip, but you rail experts might want to google "Oklahoma City Union Station" and spend the next two or three days reading the information to the contrary you find in the 800 plus hits you'll get. I really should have left that out, because it was not relevant to the more important point that I wanted to make in my post . . . the Norman - OKC - Edmond (Guthrie) transportation corridor.

BTW, Kerry . . . you are right about it not being 1945. In 1945 the Interurban electric rail line still connected Norman to OKC and Guthrie and El Reno.

The title of the thread is "OKC Commuter Rail" . . . we ain't got none and it doesn't look like we will have any in the near future. We apparently have no new transit system plans, but we have had lots of planning studies in the last few years, most with at least a transit component; at least one totally dedicated to transit. What use, if any other than door stops, are these studies being put to?

Transit was deemed the major component of a Maps III only a few short months ago, now we seem to have stalled out on transit. What has changed about the nearly universally accepted projected need for a more modern mass transit system in OKC that would include some rail? I don't agree with the Mayor that voters are pooped out after voting for NBA hoops and won't support the financing for development of the initial stages of a modern mass transit system that citizens living here in the next century won't be able to get along without on a daily basis.

In the face of the reality of $5 to $7 to WhoTFKnows prices for gasoline, in ten or fifteen years, how will even middle-classed people get to their jobs, let alone to a basketball game downtown? We have spent hundreds of $$$millions constructing, maintaining and widening the highway connecting Norman, OKC and Edmond the past twenty-odd years with no real thought for the future, other than how can we provide infrastructure for more and more automobiles. Like many other people who have posted their questions and opinions here, I am just suggesting that there are proven transit alternatives, that the planning and development process is long and expensive and that we aren't making much progress.

Ask yourself if there already were a light rail line operating from Norman through Oklahoma City to Edmond if it would be in considerable use today and whether it would have saved on the costs to maintain and widen the highway in that transit corridor? The planning for such a line would have to have been well underway at least ten, and more like fifteen years ago for that line to be in service today. So, if we decide today that the next round of funding to upgrade that transit corridor will include adding rail capacity, it will be about 2025 before you can ride a train from Oklahoma City to an OU football game in Norman.

[Kerry]

ODG - now we are talking. I agree with your last post. When I see something about the Union rail yard and alarms start going off in my head because we do have a faction of our group here that must have kissed their first girl behind that building or saw a love one go off to war there because they just can't let it go. I can respect those feelings but not at the expense of implementing a modern transit system.

You are right, I think this subject has been studied to death and it is time to see some track laid.

[AFCM]

I totally agree, OKC needs light rail. In addition to easing pain at the pump, lessening emissions, and connecting the major parts of the OKC metro, adding rail would benefit OKC in another aspect. Not to get off topic here, but adding rail and connecting the major parts of the metro with downtown would alleviate the need for parking, thus taking money out of the hands of Brewer, in turn allowing for some real development over all of the surface parking in Bricktown. We need rail!

...waiting for johnnyboyokc to chime in...

[Kerry]

I was just taking a look at Google Earth and following some of the existing rail lines around OKC. Man, they run through some extra crappy parts of town. I don't think there is any way an OKC rail system could use any of that right of way for anything other than commuter rail but that would probably need to be funded by the state anyhow.

[metro]

. . .anyone thinking about the "Park and Ride" that you see in the DC area?? Seems that might be at least a place to start.

Park and Ride is almost in every city, not just D.C., except OKC. We do have a few "park & ride" locations. There is one that I know of on I-35 near the Turnpike exit. Unfortunately we don't have mass transit connected to these as other cities, however I do belive they are used as encouragement to car pool in OKC or to Tulsa.

[metro]

I was just taking a look at Google Earth and following some of the existing rail lines around OKC. Man, they run through some extra crappy parts of town. I don't think there is any way an OKC rail system could use any of that right of way for anything other than commuter rail but that would probably need to be funded by the state anyhow.

Kerry, again as others have already said, most cities rail systems run/ran through crappy parts of town anyways. That's just the nature of the beast. I've ridden NYC's, Atlanta's, Philadelphia's, Miami's, Dallas', San Fran's. They all go through bad parts of the city. Also, as others pointed out, rail and mass transit have spurred TONS of development near the tracks that otherwise would have remained blighted areas. Forget about what our Union Station and surrounding areas are now, imagine what they could/would be if we had a modern rail system with a hub in that area. Union Station pretty much has the infrastructure still in place to implement a modern system for little money. The rail yard is much bigger than people realize.

[The Old Downtown Guy]

What most people don't get is the importance of a "Hub" to implement a multi-modal transit strategy. As Tom Elmore pointed out, there is already a lot of rail infrastructure that would make it very cost effective to develop a line from our airport through downtown and out to Tinker. A multi-modal hub provides the connection point for taxis, buses, trolleys and whatever to collect passengers and distribute them to hotels, offices etc. Also, an adjacent parking garage could provide the long term parking for passengers making rail trips to other cities on lines that would connect at the hub.

OKC already has a significiant amount of rail infrastructure that only requires upgrading to be put into use which would off-set thousands of automobile miles per day and start to take some pressure off of the expressways. In time, the existing lines can be branched off to put rail onto NW Expwy and other heavily traveled auto routes. The rail that would replace two traffic lanes could eaisly reduce the auto traffic by half.

Although bus ridership is up in OKC, the system really needs to be linked to rail traffic to get large numbers of people onto the buses . . . not to make their whole ride on, but just to get them to the rail stop. This is the proven system that has worked in cities across this country and around the world for years and years. The same system design that served OKC for over fifty years.

[jbrown84]

jbrown, how accurate is that number? I bet if it was up that high, we'd be hearing about it and Metro Transit would be talking about expanding routes, etc.

I just "heard" that. Someone mentioned it in conversation. Not official by any means.

[betts]

What most people don't get is the importance of a "Hub" to implement a multi-modal transit strategy. As Tom Elmore pointed out, there is already a lot of rail infrastructure that would make it very cost effective to develop a line from our airport through downtown and out to Tinker. A multi-modal hub provides the connection point for taxis, buses, trolleys and whatever to collect passengers and distribute them to hotels, offices etc. Also, an adjacent parking garage could provide the long term parking for passengers making rail trips to other cities on lines that would connect at the hub.

OKC already has a significiant amount of rail infrastructure that only requires upgrading to be put into use which would off-set thousands of automobile miles per day and start to take some pressure off of the expressways. In time, the existing lines can be branched off to put rail onto NW Expwy and other heavily traveled auto routes. The rail that would replace two traffic lanes could eaisly reduce the auto traffic by half.

Although bus ridership is up in OKC, the system really needs to be linked to rail traffic to get large numbers of people onto the buses . . . not to make their whole ride on, but just to get them to the rail stop. This is the proven system that has worked in cities across this country and around the world for years and years. The same system design that served OKC for over fifty years.

I get the importance of a hub, but I'd like to see data that shows that more of our commuter traffic is east-west than north-south, and I'd like to see any hub moved further east, to coincide with a north-south route that could not cut through downtown to link up with any east-west line. Personally, I travel the Broadway extension all the time, but am rarely on I-40, and I wonder how many other people are like me. I seriously doubt I would take commuter rail to the airport, as that would probably necessitate leaving my car somewhere anyway, and I'd rather have the ease of transporting baggage directly to my car, rather than by train to car. I've used the Tube in London and the subway in Chicago to get from the airport to my hotels, and it's a pain in the neck. I could do it in Atlanta, but again, I don't because I don't have to. I'm all about using mass transit if it helps ease congestion, save energy and improve the environment, but I'd rather take mass trans to work every day of the year than use it a couple of times a year to go to the airport.