Everything's NOT bigger in Texas

[mranderson]

The Sunday Oklahoman has reported the current status of Dallas' West End vs. Bricktown.

Here is the comparison.

West End:

Eight million visitors annually.
Opened 1973
Top attractions: Dallas World Aquarium and Sixth Floor (Kennedy assasination)
Top Events: OU/TExas weekend, taste of Texas
Light rail stop and police patrol
eight restaurants
three clubs
three shops
competes with West Village, Deep Ellum, Greenville and McKinney Street
Event that said it had "arrived.": The opening of Planet Hollywood (which closed in 2001)

Bricktown:

Ten million visitors annually
Opened 1989 but started in 1980
Top attractions: Bricktown Canal, Land Run Monument, AT&T stadium, Toby Keith's
Top Events: July 4 festival, Opening night, Christmas in December (why did they name it in December. That is a "well duh")
City Support: Trolly, Police district station and patrols, Business improvment district, Cleanup and marketing, tif district for development.
Resturants: 25
Clubs: eight
Shops: eight
Competing districts: Western, Paseo, and midtown.
Proof of "arrival.": Toby Keith's opened in 2005

Well. Another "I told you so." We have bragging rights. By the way... The article also suggested the West End is doomed to die and is on life support as it is.

A lot of people were surprised to see the lack of people on a weekend at West End.

All I have to say is congradulations to the founders of Bricktown, the city council and mayors (past and present). And last but not least... (drum roll, please) The people of Central Oklahoma and the tourists. Without you, we would not have this major bragging right to say "neener, neener, neener" to Texas.

[soonerguru]

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. The main article on West End, not the stuff above, in today's Oklahoman should serve as a cautionary tale to our city's leaders.

If they insist on turning Bricktown into a cheesy Disneyland, Bricktown could very well end up like the decrepit, cultural void that is the West End.

When our city planners were ballyhooing West End years ago as our model for Bricktown, I became very concerned.

Bricktown needs to be more than a place for tourists.

And, it seems reading that article, that the West End director still doesn't get it: all he talks about them doing there to improve their visitation is working to keep out the "wrong crowd." Say what? You don't hear crap like that in New York or other real cities.

Sure, we need good police presence, but by insisting that everything be a "family" attraction, they will kill Bricktown quickly if we adopt such an attitude.

A true downtown entertainment district needs to have something for everyone, and I think so far Bricktown has done a better job at this than the West End.

Endless cheesy chain restaurants are not the way to go. Fortunately, we don't have that problem here.

I also like that the city didn't go overboard after the shootings. Bricktown is still a safe place to be, and stuff can happen anywhere, even in, gulp, Edmond.

[writerranger]

A little reality bites here....

Dallas has not one, but multiple large urban entertainment districts. The death of the West End gave birth to other districts in Dallas. It's not like OKC has one district (basically true) and Dallas has one (far from it) -- and OKC has more visitors. That would be laughable.

Apples and oranges when comparing visitors to entertainment districts. It's comparing one that has come and gone to one that is thriving. No news here. Except, in the cautionary tale as described above.

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[mranderson]

A little reality bites here....

Dallas has not one, but multiple large urban entertainment districts. The death of the West End gave birth to other districts in Dallas. It's not like OKC has one district (basically true) and Dallas has one (far from it) -- and OKC has more visitors. That would be laughable.

Apples and oranges when comparing visitors to entertainment districts. It's comparing one that has come and gone to one that is thriving. No news here. Except, in the cautionary tale as described above.

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No. We have bragging rights. Our downtown district is better than theirs, and statistics prove it. They said Bricktown got more visitors than West End. The others in Dallas are mostly locals trying to get drunk.

[keving]

No. We have bragging rights. Our downtown district is better than theirs, and statistics prove it. They said Bricktown got more visitors than West End. The others in Dallas are mostly locals trying to get drunk.

I wanna see these statistics that prove the OKC downtown district is better than the Dallas downtown district. I highly doubt there is such a thing. Their downtown eats ours for breakfast.

Now, Bricktown may get more visitors than the West End but I'm pretty sure Dallas gets more visitors than OKC. The article really doesn't make a fair comparison.

By the way... I'm one of the visitors that does go to the other districts such as Deep Ellum, Lower Greenville or Uptown. And no, I am not trying to get drunk but just hanging out with friends.

[mranderson]

I lived there for eight years. How long did you live there? That is my proof and all I need. Plus. Reread my post. I said MOST ARE THERE TRYING TO GET DRUNK. Are you MOST?

If you are refering to the information I provided about the number of clubs, etc, then I suggest reading today's Sunday Oklahoman.

[keving]

I lived there for eight years. How long did you live there? That is my proof and all I need. Plus. Reread my post.

I do not see how long one lived in Dallas has anything to do with your point. But, since you asked, I lived in Dallas for almost 2 years. I was there when Planet Hollywood closed in 2001. During my time in Dallas, I saw other districts getting busier while noticing that attendance at West End was clearly declining.

I said MOST ARE THERE TRYING TO GET DRUNK. Are you MOST?

I don't know anyone that tries to get drunk. I know a lot of people that like to have fun with their friends and have a drink at the same time, but not get drunk.

If you are refering to the information I provided about the number of clubs, etc, then I suggest reading today's Sunday Oklahoman.

I agree with writerranger's post. OKC basically has one entertainment district. Dallas has several. To compare our one district with one of theirs that is clearly having issues is absurd.

[mranderson]

I do not see how long one lived in Dallas has anything to do with your point. But, since you asked, I lived in Dallas for almost 2 years. I was there when Planet Hollywood closed in 2001. During my time in Dallas, I saw other districts getting busier while noticing that attendance at West End was clearly declining.

I don't know anyone that tries to get drunk. I know a lot of people that like to have fun with their friends and have a drink at the same time, but not get drunk.


I agree with writerranger's post. OKC basically has one entertainment district. Dallas has several. To compare our one district with one of theirs that is clearly having issues is absurd.

Two years, huh? I was there eight. That is four times longer. I saw a lot more since I was there so long. Think about that.

[keving]

Again, I do not see how long one lived in Dallas has anything to do with the fact that comparing Bricktown to the West End is absurd.

[bandnerd]

Longer isn't always better, either.

And yes, the pun was intended for those that caught it.

[keving]

Longer isn't always better, either.

:tweeted: I've been telling people that for years but nobody listens. Finally, someone agrees! :tweeted:

[writerranger]

Two years, huh? I was there eight. That is four times longer. I saw a lot more since I was there so long. Think about that.

I'm quite certain that you having lived in Dallas eight years, or eight days has little to do with the topic at hand.

The fact that Dallas has several urban-style entertainment districts and Oklahoma City has one is simply a fact, whether you lived there for eight years or not. To compare Oklahoma City's one district with an old Dallas district that has fallen out of vogue is hardly a valid comparison - except, as I said earlier - as a cautionary tale.

MrAnderson, Dallas is a big city. Has been for a long time. Oklahoma City is getting there, but to say that Oklahoma City has "bragging rights" comparing one district to another is silly. What about the bragging rights of a city that has SEVERAL entertainment districts versus one? And that one has almost zero retail and a lot of shuttered storefronts!

In your words, Think about that!

By the way, I won't even go into how when one counts "visitors" to Bricktown and The West End, you realize that includes the visitors to the sporting events at the Ballpark - which The West End has never had.

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[bandnerd]

I just don't see the point in comparing, you know? I mean, Dallas is Dallas, and OKC is OKC and I'd like to keep it that way. Dallas has its own vibe, and so do we. Why compare them? It's like comparing your children to each other. So what if we have more visitors? So what if we have more restaurants? (assuming the article above is telling the truth, that is.)

Why don't we just focus on growing OKC into its own persona instead of comparing it to everyone else?

[Kerry]

Typical Oklahoma defeatist attitude. Even when good news is delivered there has to be someone to find something wrong. The simple truth is OKC and Dallas have downtown entertainment ditricts and OKC has more visitors.

If the numbers for OKC includes people attending baseball games then good. That's why the stadium was located in bricktown in the first place. If Dallas leaders didn't have the foresight to locate an arena in their entertainment district then they are stupid. That's not OKCs problem - its Dallas' problem.

[writerranger]

Kerry,

It's about perspective. Keeping things a little on the level. Whatever you want to call it, it's simply realism. I agree with bandnerd above - the comparisons are silly. That's not "defeatist," that's seeing things as they are as opposed to seeing things from a distorted perspective that doesn't matter anyway!

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[keving]

I wonder if Deep Ellum would be considered a downtown entertainment district?

[ETL]

What places would you say are “entertainment districts” in OKC? I think Moore is getting one. Do you?

[soonerguru]

The fact that Dallas has several urban-style entertainment districts and Oklahoma City has one is simply a fact

That is not simply a fact. Oklahoma City also has the Paseo District, which is quickly improving, as well as the Western District. Campus Corner in Norman probably doesn't count.

Also, Mr. Anderson, why do you seem to pick so many fights around here?

[okcpulse]

Okay, everyone, calm down.

First, let's begin by looking at the article itself, and what it stands for. The history of comparing Bricktown to West End, and not Deep Ellum, has to do with the fact that developers in Bricktown were using West End as an inspiration, or model, for development. That was in the 1990s before the ballpark and canal opening. If memory serves, everyone was talking about the West End in downtown Dallas and how great it was. Things have changed since the nineties, and although that doesn't justify comparing Bricktown to the West End, that was the very nature of the article.

As far as mranderson, he will see it the way he wants to see it. That doesn't mean everyone else has to go along with it. But based on past posts by mranderson, he hated Texas, and since I am in Texas now, I am learning first hand that Texas is not God's gift to America the way many people in Oklahoma think it is. It doesn't matter how much more teachers here get paid. They still complain they don't make enough. And the schools here are rampant with trouble makers. I will not raise my children in this kind of environment. There may be more jobs here, but you have to compete with thousands more relocated residents for those jobs. We both discovered what Texas really is.

Bricktown isn't the only entertainment district. It is the largest, most popular, but not the only. We have a few more that are up and coming. Yes, Dallas is much larger, and these districts have more support, but again, West End was the primary district in Dallas at the time, and the article is simply reflecting on the changes between the two districts.

[jbrown84]

I agree with okcpulse. There's no need to fight over this. It seems natural to compare Bricktown to the West End, especially as some have said to view West End's demise as a cautionary tale. I don't think we need to be bragging the way mranderson wants us to, because it would just make us look ignorant about Dallas and its entertainment options. But I do think we can look at this and see that we have probably done some things right that Dallas did not. I'm surprised GrandMaMa hasn't put in her two cents yet. I'm sure she will.

[keving]

It would seem natural to compare Bricktown to the West End when they were in the same stages of life. One shouldn't compare current day Bricktown (in growth) to current day West End (in decline).

[jbrown84]

I know that is why I said what we need to comapare is what is being done differently from what was done at this stage in West End's development (which led to its decline). I think we have attractions in Bricktown that are more viable in the longterm. I think our canal and the Bricktown Ballpark will have longterm appeal to both tourists and locals. While the West End had/has the Dallas World Aquarium and the Sixth Floor Museum, I think those are things that are pretty exclusive to toursists (especially the Sixth Floor), and certainly aren't something that locals are going to make many repeat visits to. We are probably lucky that we never scored a Planet Hollywood or Hard Rock because those kinds of tourist traps tend to come and go with the fads. I'm glad that Bricktown has remained mostly local establishments.

[quailcreekgal]

Let's compare it with KC's Plaza District! The Plaza is entertainment and dining and shopping and hotels! Oh my!

[Shake2005]

KC in the plaza/westport area has hundreds of stores, dozens of resturants and clubs, thousands of hotel rooms and condos, many are new and highrise. It's urban, but it's not technically downtown.

[jbrown84]

The Plaza is a much better role model, IMO.