Cable barriers don't stop semis

[Patrick]

We found out this afternoon that cable barriers will not stop semis from crossing the center median. I figured that. For those that didn't hear, a semi going southbound, crossed the center median, hit and went over the cable barriers, and hit a car head on. The driver was instantly killed. Another vehicle hit the back of the truck in a chain reaction. That driver was in critical condition. This was just north of 122nd St.

Amazingly, that's a straight segment of the Parkway. I'm not sure how the guy crossed the median. He must not have been paying attention, or he must've passed out or something. Anyways, he'll probably face murder charges.

Going back to the other thread, I wonder if the guy was speeding. lol!

[dirtrider73068]

I knew those things were a waste of money and time and wouldn't work right. Still think its better to have the concrete barriers in the middle.

[Patrick]

I knew those things were a waste of money and time and wouldn't work right. Still think its better to have the concrete barriers in the middle.

Yup, I agree. I think they were trying to go cheap, and while it has saved some lives, it's proven once again, it isn't completely functional.

[dirtrider73068]

Nope, I remeber when that gas tanker wreck on 35 in moore, it had hit the concrete barriers pushed them a little but kept him in his side of 35, had he crossed over would have been worse.

[Patrick]

If the cable barriers won't stop semis from crossing over, what are they worth? We're spending tons of money right now installing them on I-35 down in Norman. Sure, most of the traffic on the Hefner Parkway is light-weight vehicle traffic and not semis, but I-35 is a different story. I imagine we may have similar failures on I-35, but maybe moreso since more semis travel that route.

[dirtrider73068]

They will find out the hard way and sowill someones loved ones when a semi crosses over and hits someone head on, with something like that the chances of surviveing at very slim.

[Patrick]

I don't believe I've ever seen a semi cross a concrete barrier. I've seen enough of them almost go over a bridge at the Ft. Smith junction, but the barriers always stopped them.
Same thing in an accident awhile back at 39th St. and I-44 west bound.

I don't think you can expect a series of cables on flimsy polls to stop a semi.

[Patrick]

I think after this incident, we need to have an investigation into whether the cable barriers should remain in use. As I said, if they can't stop a semi, we might need to consider something else. I'd rather spend the money on a concrete barrier if it's going to work, then waste the money on a flimsy maitenance-headache cable barrier system that fails.

[dirtrider73068]

I think after this incident, we need to have an investigation into whether the cable barriers should remain in use. As I said, if they can't stop a semi, we might need to consider something else. I'd rather spend the money on a concrete barrier if it's going to work, then waste the money on a flimsy maitenance-headache cable barrier system that fails.

You got my vote.

[Midtowner]

I'm not sure how you are justifying the expense here? I mean, it is a roadway, there is an inherent danger to driving. People will die on the road.

Hefner Expressway is how many years old? 20? How many deaths have occured as a result of people crossing the median on that particular road with the current Euro-style system in place? One?

If we're to spend millions on our roads, I can think of many MUCH more deserving places to spend the money.

Hefner Expressway is not an interstate. It doesn't carry a lot of semi traffic. I do understand the need for such barriers on major interstates, but not necessarily Hefner Expressway.

Why do folks always have to overreact to whatever is on the news? People die on the highway all the time. I'm not even sure why this is newsworthy.

[John]

The cable barriers have done a nice job so far and saved countless lives.

Getting behind the wheel, there is always the chance of a fatality.

[Patrick]

I'm not sure how you are justifying the expense here? I mean, it is a roadway, there is an inherent danger to driving. People will die on the road.

Hefner Expressway is how many years old? 20? How many deaths have occured as a result of people crossing the median on that particular road with the current Euro-style system in place? One?

If we're to spend millions on our roads, I can think of many MUCH more deserving places to spend the money.

Hefner Expressway is not an interstate. It doesn't carry a lot of semi traffic. I do understand the need for such barriers on major interstates, but not necessarily Hefner Expressway.

Why do folks always have to overreact to whatever is on the news? People die on the highway all the time. I'm not even sure why this is newsworthy.

The point I was trying to make is they're now spending loads of our tax dollars on the same cable barrier system on I-35, an interstate where there are far more semis than on the parkway. On I-35, if the cable barrier won't stop these semis from crossing over, what good are they worth?

[Patrick]

One of our ODOT officials made this statement:

Emamian, a Transportation Department engineer who designed the cable barriers, said no median barrier can stop a truck from crossing into oncoming traffic.


"None of the barriers are designed for semis," he said. "All the barriers are designed for cars."

But Emamian is confident the cable barrier -- the first designed and installed in the United States -- is safer than the traditional guardrail and concrete barriers.

The impact of a car hitting the concrete barrier will be transferred to the driver, Emamian said.

If a car hits a concrete barrier, it will most likely bounce back into traffic, causing a second accident.

"It's like hitting a brick wall," he said.
When a car hits a cable barrier, the cable transfers a lot of the energy, he said.

I completely disagree with this guy. Concrete barriers do prevent major accidents. A head on collision is much worse than the truck being thrown back into traffic. That would be a broadside accident, or at worst, a rear end accident. A head on accident multiplies the force by two.

Also, he states that concrete barriers don't stop semis. Again, I disagree. I've never seen a semi go off a bridge on the Ft. Smith junction, although I've seen many semis hit the concrete wall. His first statement is wrong.

[Midtowner]

The point I was trying to make is they're now spending loads of our tax dollars on the same cable barrier system on I-35, an interstate where there are far more semis than on the parkway. On I-35, if the cable barrier won't stop these semis from crossing over, what good are they worth?

My guess is that they're cheaper than concrete barriers. They're also probably better than nothing. Building concrete barriers along the entire median of I-35 is cost prohibitive. When you've only had ONE death in the history of a safety device from it failing in this state, that's hardly a call to spend millions and millions to make sure it doesn't happen again within the next 10 or so years.

Driving is a risky business. To some extent, you take your life into your own hands when you get behind the wheel. The trucking company likely will end up paying a good sum of money to the family of the deceased. That is their incentive to make sure their trucks don't cross the median.

[Patrick]

When you've only had ONE death in the history of a safety device from it failing in this state, that's hardly a call to spend millions and millions to make sure it doesn't happen again within the next 10 or so years.

It's extremely tough to use the results from the Hefner Parkway and extrapolate them to other interstates, when the Hefner Parkway has very little semi traffic.

Maybe before the cable barriers were installed, the state should've tested them with better controlled tests. How about setting up a test strip somewhere and having semis run into it at all angles and speeds to see the success of the barrier at stopping semi cross overs. An even better test would've been to compare those results to results from other types of barrier systems. Then from those results, make a decision on where to spend the money.

I do agree that the cable barrier is better than nothing, but still if we're going to shell out that kind of money, I'd rather spend it on something that works, even if it's going to cost a little more.

I find it interesting that the state built a concrete wall along the entire stretch of the new Broadway Extension. Thus far, there have been absolutely no crossover accidents there. And the area north of 63rd St. was becoming a common place for crossovers. I lost a dea friend from high school in a crossover accident at that location.

[hipsterdoofus]

I disagree that the cables are a failure. As someone from ODOT said, even concrete barriers are not guaranteed to stop a semi. You have to rely on drivers paying attention to some extent, and as was mentioned earlier, people will die on the highway, its a risk you take. With them saying that they KNOW of 400 hits on the cable barriers, how many occurred that they didn't know about, I'd say that they have done at least some good. You definately cannot say they are totally useless.

[Midtowner]

Patrick, do you think that the state really didn't have any data on the efficacy of cable barrier systems? You seem to think that since the state did not conduct the research that no research has ever happened. I don't know of any, but I would be highly doubtful that ODOT or any conscientious highway builder would install a safety system that was untested.

I'm sure there is a great deal of data available on the efficacy of the cable barrier systems in the form of studies and real-world results. Such tests, on the states part would be unnecessary, of questionable worth, and probably extremely expensive.

I'm not sure that millions of dollars spent on concrete barriers is worth the remote possibility of one life saved every twenty or so years. There's also no indication at all that concrete barriers would have stopped this particular semi which seems to be assumed in this thread. The Broadway Extension is a fairly similar to Hefner Expressway in that truck traffic is very light -- probably lighter than Hefner since Hefner Expressway is also a state highway which is probably the best route to Enid from OKC.

We can't make the roads 100% safe, that's an unreasonable expectation. The best that can be done is that our highway builders allocate their resources in a manner to ensure that it will do the best for the most people.

Concrete barriers are much more expensive than the wire types. Therefore, I'd wager that say 200 miles of wire barriers will save more lives than 50 miles of concrete (or whatever the actual cost difference is). With unlimited money, I'd say install concrete barriers everywhere. Absent that, however, I'd say that road builders should try to protect as many people as possible using their limited resources.

[Patrick]

I disagree that the cables are a failure. As someone from ODOT said, even concrete barriers are not guaranteed to stop a semi. You have to rely on drivers paying attention to some extent, and as was mentioned earlier, people will die on the highway, its a risk you take. With them saying that they KNOW of 400 hits on the cable barriers, how many occurred that they didn't know about, I'd say that they have done at least some good. You definately cannot say they are totally useless.

I agree that the cable barrier hasn't been a failure. Stopping over 400 cars from crossing is success in and by itself.

I'm not sure I agree with the statement the guy from ODOT told The Oklahoman. The guy making the statement was the engineer in charge of installing the cable barrier system to begin with. Of course he's going to defend it.

[Patrick]

Midtowner, I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm just trying to ride the other side of the fence, so to speak. I think both sides obviously have a decent argument.

Would a concrete barrier have saved a life yesterday? I'd venture to say yes.

Have the cable barriers been successful? I'd say yes as well.

Problem with the cable barriers isn't that they didn't work, it's more that the large truck took so many supports of the barrier out that there was nothing left to hold it up.

Would a concrete barrier have stood the test? Well, it's debatable, but I've never seen one fail yet.

But, as has already been mentioned, if cost is an issue, 200 miles of cable barriers saves more lives than 50 miles of concrete barriers. Much of the time, it's cars crossing the median.

[Karried]

I don't know Patrick, I'm almost thinking that if this guy fell asleep ( my guess) and hit a concrete barrier he might have overcorrected and jackknifed or bounced onto carloads of people and killed all of them.. or caused a chain reaction - any way you look at it, semi's are so dangerous.. remember the commercials for an SUV ( a bucking bronco) just think what a semi would be depicted as... a rabid wooly mammoth or worse.

[SoonerDave]

The cable barrier system is a proven concept used internationally (and, unless I'm mistaken, started in Germany....please correct if that's wrong) that is not rendered ineffective due to a single tragedy.

One of the most gruesome accidents I ever had the misfortune of seeing after-the-fact was in Dallas along I-635, when a semi lost control, *climbed the center concrete median*, and plowed into heaven-only-knows how many other cars. It was absolutely ghastly, and I never heard how many fatalities (if any) were involved.

The point is that the median barriers are designed to stop the most probable type of vehicle loss-of-control incident, and that's decidedly not a semi driver falling asleep (or whatever) at the wheel.

On the other side, from personal experience I can tell you that I would prefer the railing system. About 10 years ago, I was traveling home from work westbound on I-240 in the middle lane, just past the Shields overpass. An idiot woman ahead and to my right was involved in an obscene-gesture war with the driver of the car ahead of her, and she chose that moment to show him what kind of a driver-man she was by cutting in front of me and running me off the road.

I started fishtailing violently, but each swing drew me closer to the concrete center median. After several swings, I was perhaps five seconds from fully recovering from the swing, when *bam*, I hit the concrete wall and caromed like a billiard ball perpendicularly across *four lanes* of high-speed, rush-hour traffic plus an exit ramp. I plowed head-first into *another* concrete barrier on the other side.

It was a miracle I walked away without a scratch.

The end result? My brand new (well, eight-month-old) car, with not even 9K miles on it, was a totalled, heaping pile of trash on I-240. The idiot who ran me off the road had no insurance (geez, how typical), and my insurance company took the claim on subrogation and paid me out, then years later won an absentee judgment against her.

The point of all that nauseating detail is that if there's no concrete median there, but an implementation of the steel retaining cables, I believe I would not have bounced across the road, totalled a car, and cost my insurance co a tidy 5-figure sum. They'd have been repairing some body damage, to be sure, but not an entire car.

My example no more proves that cable barriers are perfect any more than one semi serves as a counterproof that they *don't* work. The point is that, based on a combination of personal experience and everything I've read and heard about them suggests they work precisely as advertised within the scope of the design and intent set out for them. To suggest they be discarded over a single incident would, in my opinion, be highly misguided.

-SoonerDave

[Midtowner]

It doesn't seem that Patrick really thinks that the concrete barriers should be replaced. I think he's just taking that argument as far as he thinks it can go.

It's a losing argument though to be sure

[Oki_Man5]

Midtowner, I do not agree with what you said about Patrick just taking that argument as far as he thinks it can go, but I will not elaborate.

Edited to clarify what I meant.

[Karried]

Thanks for editing that... now it's clear as mud :tweeted:

[mranderson]

Last night, I completed the Oklahoma City citizens Police Academy (we graduate next Tuesday. Let me know if you want an invite and I will see what I can do). The discussion was "signal 30" which is OCPD code for a fatality collision. MSgt Mark Sexton, who is one of the investigators, spoke in depth about that collision.

Sgt Sexton said the barriers were first purchased in Great Britton, however, the new ones actually come from Texas (yuck). He said they need to investigate a great deal to see what happened, however, it looks like a fluke.

The barriers DO work. In fact, they have caused a major reduction in fatalities since they were installed. They do stop semi's. This incident? God only knows what happened. BTW. Only one person died.