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  1. #1

    Default OKC long term Sustainability!

    We know we do not have a crystal ball. Question? What is your opinion on OKC long term sustainability? I feel the city has much untapped potential, however based on recent newspaper editorials young people are starting to move out of the State because the opportunities just are not there and they are leaning towards better job offers and more progressive forward thinking politics in other places. Our politics do not help in anyway. What are things that can help OKC have a more bright, sustained future? Any thoughts?

  2. #2

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    One thing comes to mind is for the State to be more proactive in getting better job opportunities for them to stay! We need more taxpayers, not taxes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by progressiveboy View Post
    We know we do not have a crystal ball. Question? What is your opinion on OKC long term sustainability? I feel the city has much untapped potential, however based on recent newspaper editorials young people are starting to move out of the State because the opportunities just are not there and they are leaning towards better job offers and more progressive forward thinking politics in other places. Our politics do not help in anyway. What are things that can help OKC have a more bright, sustained future? Any thoughts?
    Texas has almost the same policies (especially of late) and they are killing it in terms of growth.

    The biggest difference between the states is that Texas invests in education and has several excellent universities, both public and private. Until Oklahoma gets serious on this front we are never going to see a lot of start-ups or tech companies electing to set up shop here. And that's how desirable and creative jobs come to be.

  4. #4

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Texas has almost the same policies (especially of late) and they are killing it in terms of growth.

    The biggest difference between the states is that Texas invests in education and has several excellent universities, both public and private. Until Oklahoma gets serious on this front we are never going to see a lot of start-ups or tech companies electing to set up shop here. And that's how desirable and creative jobs come to be.
    The thing they have is UT makes more from their mineral interests than Oklahoma makes a year, as a whole. Most of their funding comes from that, I believe.

    But your point stands true. Oklahoma needs to invest in higher education. They have stepped it up after years of cuts. Just need to figure out how to make the investments pay off.

    https://shef.sheeo.org/grapevine/?cn-reloaded=1

  5. #5

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by bison34 View Post
    The thing they have is UT makes more from their mineral interests than Oklahoma makes a year, as a whole. Most of their funding comes from that, I believe.

    But your point stands true. Oklahoma needs to invest in higher education. They have stepped it up after years of cuts. Just need to figure out how to make the investments pay off.

    https://shef.sheeo.org/grapevine/?cn-reloaded=1
    Maybe that is why I hardly see any people with ideas from Oklahoma on Shark. It takes a good education to come up with inventive new business ideas. Since Oklahoma can't seem to attract much business, especially with high paying jobs from the outside, then it needs to invest better in education to help new ideas for business to come up within the state.

  6. #6

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    Maybe that is why I hardly see any people with ideas from Oklahoma on Shark. It takes a good education to come up with inventive new business ideas. Since Oklahoma can't seem to attract much business, especially with high paying jobs from the outside, then it needs to invest better in education to help new ideas for business to come up within the state.
    Oklahoma has improved higher Ed funding greatly over the last 5 years, and has shown a willingness to continue to. All the attention was on secondary and elementary ed, and rightfully so. But higher ed has gotten a pretty nice bump recently.

    Not perfect, but improving. That's all you can do. Can't just imagine an extra billion into the budget.

  7. #7

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by bison34 View Post
    Oklahoma has improved higher Ed funding greatly over the last 5 years, and has shown a willingness to continue to. All the attention was on secondary and elementary ed, and rightfully so. But higher ed has gotten a pretty nice bump recently.

    Not perfect, but improving. That's all you can do. Can't just imagine an extra billion into the budget.
    Yet, they are trying to cut taxes further, which shows you how much they really care about education.

  8. #8

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by bison34 View Post
    Oklahoma has improved higher Ed funding greatly over the last 5 years, and has shown a willingness to continue to. All the attention was on secondary and elementary ed, and rightfully so. But higher ed has gotten a pretty nice bump recently.

    Not perfect, but improving. That's all you can do. Can't just imagine an extra billion into the budget.
    I haven't looked how much they've increased higher education funding, but I doubt it's "greatly". And does it completely reverse how deeply they cut it for the 10 or so years before that (35-ish percent per student, I believe) so it's back up to what it was and/or what it should be (in line with other states)?

    Higher education *and* K-12 both need better funding, better administration, and an actual focus on education, as well as a stop to the ridiculous antics at 23rd/Lincoln for OKC to have decent companies locate here, people to stay, etc. OKC is doing reasonably well in spite of 23rd/Lincoln, though, thankfully.

  9. #9

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Texas has almost the same policies (especially of late) and they are killing it in terms of growth.

    The biggest difference between the states is that Texas invests in education and has several excellent universities, both public and private. Until Oklahoma gets serious on this front we are never going to see a lot of start-ups or tech companies electing to set up shop here. And that's how desirable and creative jobs come to be.
    Agree. I feel another factor is a good business climate in Texas that is not highly regulated, no State Income tax, no grocery tax, better job opportunities in the white collar world. The State of Texas continues to explode with growth which can also have a downside too it. Of course, this is my opinion, however you look at the tremendous success Texas has had with creating jobs, one must wonder what is Oklahoma doing wrong besides not supporting education?

  10. #10

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by progressiveboy View Post
    Agree. I feel another factor is a good business climate in Texas that is not highly regulated, no State Income tax, no grocery tax, better job opportunities in the white collar world. The State of Texas continues to explode with growth which can also have a downside too it. Of course, this is my opinion, however you look at the tremendous success Texas has had with creating jobs, one must wonder what is Oklahoma doing wrong besides not supporting education?
    Oklahoma's overall tax burden is less than in Texas.

    Income tax is only a part of a much bigger calculation.

  11. #11

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Oklahoma's overall tax burden is less than in Texas.

    Income tax is only a part of a much bigger calculation.
    Agree again, however you must admit you see those taxes are being put to good use such as roads and increased infrastructure in Texas. What are your views on why Texas is so successful with recruiting businesses to their State? Obviously, companies are moving there at a really brisk pace. If you read the Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio business journals, this will show the big impact and success Texas has had in recruiting new business to their State? I know Oklahoma can do it too!

  12. #12

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by progressiveboy View Post
    Agree again, however you must admit you see those taxes are being put to good use such as roads and increased infrastructure in Texas. What are your views on why Texas is so successful with recruiting businesses to their State? Obviously, companies are moving there at a really brisk pace. If you read the Dallas, Houston, Austin, San Antonio business journals, this will show the big impact and success Texas has had in recruiting new business to their State? I know Oklahoma can do it too!
    Oil money. They have tons of it, in amounts Oklahoma can only dream of. They pay a lot of it out to companies (at the expense of citizens in the form of property tax relief, until recently).

    They also just have a ton of people. Even if they are barely higher in education rankings by having 10 times the people of Oklahoma (and a lot of states), they can offer capital in ways other states just can't.

    And they're infrastructure is failing rapidly, and falling behind. Every city is one big traffic jam. You can drive for 2 hours in Houston and still be in *checks notes* Houston. Dallas is getting just as bad, if not worse in some areas. Austin is, as well.

    So yes, Texas has some natural advantages, like thr Permian Basin, which the UT and TAMU college systems have a ton of mineral interests in to help fund the colleges and endowments, and 35 million people. But there are a lot of things not so great about Texas. I'm not saying they are worse than Oklahoma, in any way. But their advantages are just hard to replicate for Oklahoma. Even getting rid of all taxes, and spending hundreds of millions more on education, we still wouldn't get the same corporate relocation, due to not enough people here or money to offer as incentives, like Texas does.

    Again, not bashing at all. Just stating that a lot of their advantages are ones that Oklahoma cannot replicate, no matter how hard they try.

  13. #13

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    My posts are on a roll of being deleted, but one thing OK should do is consolidate some of these universities. It’s too few resources spread way too thin. They should focus on OU and OSU and maybe a couple others.

  14. #14

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by The View Post
    one thing OK should do is consolidate some of these universities. It’s too few resources spread way too thin. They should focus on OU and OSU and maybe a couple others.
    The problem is that the smaller schools are the lifeblood of the towns in which they are located, and also provide easy commutes for people who don't have the money to go away to Stillwater or Norman.

    There isn't the political will to take NWOSU from Alva, East Central from Ada, Northeastern from Talequah, or Southwestern from Weatherford. All those small towns are already suffering.

  15. #15

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    The problem is that the smaller schools are the lifeblood of the towns in which they are located, and also provide easy commutes for people who don't have the money to go away to Stillwater or Norman.

    There isn't the political will to take NWOSU from Alva, East Central from Ada, Northeastern from Talequah, or Southwestern from Weatherford. All those small towns are already suffering.
    If those smaller universities were closed, who would buy them? Likely nobody. They would just look abandoned, a needless waste.

    Tahlequah certainly isn't doing bad as one of Oklahoma's fastest growing small towns outside of OKC and Tulsa metros.

  16. Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    If those smaller universities were closed, who would buy them? Likely nobody. They would just look abandoned, a needless waste.

    Tahlequah certainly isn't doing bad as one of Oklahoma's fastest growing small towns outside of OKC and Tulsa metros.
    IMO small schools are in danger of extinction anyway due to the rise of online schooling. No one is suggesting all of the small campuses be closed. Some of the schools that Pete mentioned will survive but the tiny ones like East Central, Panhandle State, Langston, and satellite campuses may be doomed. There is no way the state will be able to afford to fund dozens of campuses. Instead of dozens of locations, each with administration, regents and with classrooms and dorms, the focus should be on technology and bringing in better classes via internet. Yes it may be hard on individual communities but better to start a plan including ways to help ease the pain rather than an immediate, unexpected closing.

  17. #17

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    IMO small schools are in danger of extinction anyway due to the rise of online schooling. No one is suggesting all of the small campuses be closed. Some of the schools that Pete mentioned will survive but the tiny ones like East Central, Panhandle State, Langston, and satellite campuses may be doomed. There is no way the state will be able to afford to fund dozens of campuses. Instead of dozens of locations, each with administration, regents and with classrooms and dorms, the focus should be on technology and bringing in better classes via internet. Yes it may be hard on individual communities but better to start a plan including ways to help ease the pain rather than an immediate, unexpected closing.
    I think Langston and Panhandle are both operated by the A&M regents, same as OSU. No idea about East Central. I don't know what we hope to gain by removing services from small towns in Oklahoma? We can't force everyone to "move to the City". Nor should we want to.

  18. #18

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by progressiveboy View Post
    We know we do not have a crystal ball. Question? What is your opinion on OKC long term sustainability? I feel the city has much untapped potential, however based on recent newspaper editorials young people are starting to move out of the State because the opportunities just are not there and they are leaning towards better job offers and more progressive forward thinking politics in other places. Our politics do not help in anyway. What are things that can help OKC have a more bright, sustained future? Any thoughts?
    The question is how does one define "sustainable?" With the relative closeness of OKC to Mexico and the fast-growing Hispanic population, and the continued emptying of small town Oklahoma, it seems logical that OKC will continue to grow in sheer numbers for a number of years into the future. I see a future of 2 million population pretty easily. Maybe more. Ultimately those taps will begin to dry if there is not some reason beyond these for the growth to continue. OKC needs to look at the industries of the future and make the kinds of investments that will pay off 20-50 years down the road when the demography changes. I also think "sustainability" has to take a hard look at the sprawl. The city will collapse under the weight of its infrastructure needs if the drive to density and core development does not continue apace and speed up.

  19. #19

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by stlokc View Post
    The question is how does one define "sustainable?" With the relative closeness of OKC to Mexico and the fast-growing Hispanic population, and the continued emptying of small town Oklahoma, it seems logical that OKC will continue to grow in sheer numbers for a number of years into the future. I see a future of 2 million population pretty easily. Maybe more. Ultimately those taps will begin to dry if there is not some reason beyond these for the growth to continue. OKC needs to look at the industries of the future and make the kinds of investments that will pay off 20-50 years down the road when the demography changes. I also think "sustainability" has to take a hard look at the sprawl. The city will collapse under the weight of its infrastructure needs if the drive to density and core development does not continue apace and speed up.
    The 2023 Census estimate for Oklahoma City recently came out and it's 702,767 up from 695,278 in 2022.

  20. #20

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    I saw that. The metro area was closing in on 1.5 million. Something like 1,488,000. One more year and we should get there. Of course estimates are pretty flawed and are usually revised. But there is no doubt as to the momentum.

    The more interesting question is the subject of dynamism vs. size. More, more, more should not necessarily be the goal in and of itself. I mean, Austin has 2 million something and Detroit has 4 million something. Which city would you rather be?

    I do think OKC is held back by the state we are in, and the perception of it nationally as seen by educated folks who build and grow companies.

  21. #21

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by stlokc View Post
    The more interesting question is the subject of dynamism vs. size. More, more, more should not necessarily be the goal in and of itself. I mean, Austin has 2 million something and Detroit has 4 million something. Which city would you rather be?
    Aye my guy, don’t call the coroner on Detroit yet. It’s slowly becoming a decently modern city and say what you will, but they have the historic bones that young, spicy, growing cities like Austin and Charlotte can’t replicate.

  22. #22

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Tax cuts make it harder to fund anything, including education.

    The best we can hope for is small increases which is never going to get us to where we need to go.

  23. #23

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Tax cuts make it harder to fund anything, including education.

    The best we can hope for is small increases which is never going to get us to where we need to go.
    It's super hard to get taxes increased because of what the legislature did a bunch of years back (upped the threshold to an almost unattainable majority), so I doubt we'll ever get even small increases.

  24. #24

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    It's super hard to get taxes increased because of what the legislature did a bunch of years back (upped the threshold to an almost unattainable majority), so I doubt we'll ever get even small increases.
    Taxes don’t need to increase. Administrative bloat needs to be eliminated and those dollars repurposed to teaching students. The growth in administrators has far outpaced student and teacher growth for decades.

  25. #25

    Default Re: OKC long term Sustainability!

    I think we have a bright future. We are a southern city in a southern state. The south is seen as a fast, if not the fastest, growing part of the US. We might not like the politics and social aspects, but Oklahoma and OKC are just like all the other southern states. Texas, Georgia and Florida are hot spots, yet they share the rest of our policies.

    OKC has abundant land. Access to water enough to handle any possible future growth for the next 100 years. Right in the middle of America, with 3 Interstate highways that provide "border to border- coast to coast" access.

    We are at least 50 years younger than all out neighboring cities. We might be impatient, but we are well positioned.

    I can't think of any city west of us that is more sustainable than Oklahoma City.

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