A question about restaurant ethics.

[Bill Robertson]

My wife and I have been going to a new local restaurant for a couple of months. Last night we were at the bar, our usual spot, and a guy came in with a competitors tee shirt on. The bartender struck up a conversation with the guy and I caught that the guy owns the competitor. I looked up the menu of the other place and they look pretty good. On the way back from a restroom stop I told the guy that his place looked pretty good and we'd be checking it out.

Then he told me the whole story of why he was there. He hired the owners of the place we were in to do some consulting. A few months later the new restaurant opened. He wanted to see how much they copied.

I looked up FB pages of the place we've been going and the guy's restaurant. You could literally exchange names between the two and not know which was which. So the new place had absolutely copied the established restaurant.

So, how far can a new restaurant go in copying concept, atmosphere, menu items and recipes before it's unethical.

[TheTravellers]

My wife and I have been going to a new local restaurant for a couple of months. Last night we were at the bar, our usual spot, and a guy came in with a competitors tee shirt on. The bartender struck up a conversation with the guy and I caught that the guy owns the competitor. I looked up the menu of the other place and they look pretty good. On the way back from a restroom stop I told the guy that his place looked pretty good and we'd be checking it out.

Then he told me the whole story of why he was there. He hired the owners of the place we were in to do some consulting. A few months later the new restaurant opened. He wanted to see how much they copied.

I looked up FB pages of the place we've been going and the guy's restaurant. You could literally exchange names between the two and not know which was which. So the new place had absolutely copied the established restaurant.

So, how far can a new restaurant go in copying concept, atmosphere, menu items and recipes before it's unethical.

Ask Hal Smith.

[Pete]

So, how far can a new restaurant go in copying concept, atmosphere, menu items and recipes before it's unethical.

This is very, very commonplace in the restaurant and bar business.

I happen to like most the Hal Smith Restaurants (like, not love -- they are always solid with professional service) but virtually every one of them is almost a carbon copy from an existing, successful place.

I mention them because they are so big and ubiquitous but almost everyone in town does it. Lots of local restauranteurs take trips to the coast, DFW or Austin specifically to scout existing places and then more or less duplicate it in OKC.

I can tell you this happens much more here than in Los Angeles (and probably most big cities), where any copycat place would be universally panned and receive a strong backlash. It certainly does happen, but not nearly as much as here. Some of that has to do with some of the more successful places not coming here at all... Snooze has been courted by every developer in town and ultimately there were local versions, primarily Hatch and Neighborhood Jam.

Even a place like Molly Murphy's that OKC loves to remember as innovative and uniquely ours is a near direct copy of Magic Time Machine in Dallas, right down to the salad car and menu.


I'd like to think that in this day and age, any outright ripoff would be identified as such and would not be rewarded with great business, especially business that comes from the original.

[Bill Robertson]

Ok. I had no idea that such copying was so common. Since Hal Smith has been mentioned in both replies I can say this isn't a HS restaurant.
Pete, to your comment on not rewarding an outright ripoff I can say we won't be back to the ripoff. We will start going to the original.
Also surprised to hear this about Molly Murphy's. I always thought no one could have thought of that before. I learn a lot on here!

[Pete]

Ok. I had no idea that such copying was so common. Since Hal Smith has been mentioned in both replies I can say this isn't a HS restaurant.
Pete, to your comment on not rewarding an outright ripoff I can say we won't be back to the ripoff. We will start going to the original.

Charleston's (HSRG) is trying very hard to be Houston's from L.A.; this is an open secret. But Houston's never came here, so Charleston's somewhat fills that void (Houston's was one of my favorite restaurants in L.A.; Charleston's is maybe 50% as good). Many more examples.

I talk to all these operators and many will just admit: 'I really wanted to do something like Lemonade (L.A.) in OKC.' The former operator of Bleu Garten told me he traveled to several different cities to get ideas for that food truck park, which was the first here. I hear it over and over.

I doubt many people in OKC realize so many of the local places even lift lightly reworked logos, menu designs, menu items, and designs and concepts from other places in different markets. But given a much more mobile society and free flow of electronic information, if the ripoff is heavy-handed they are going to get called out on it. Has happened a lot on this site but also all over social media.

[Jersey Boss]

Ok. I had no idea that such copying was so common. Since Hal Smith has been mentioned in both replies I can say this isn't a HS restaurant.
Pete, to your comment on not rewarding an outright ripoff I can say we won't be back to the ripoff. We will start going to the original.
Also surprised to hear this about Molly Murphy's. I always thought no one could have thought of that before. I learn a lot on here!

Why did you not identify the places you are posting about?

[Roger S]

Charleston's (HSRG) is trying very hard to be Houston's from L.A.; this is an open secret. But Houston's never came here, so Charleston's somewhat fills that void (Houston's was one of my favorite restaurants in L.A.; Charleston's is maybe 50% as good). Many more examples.

Pretty much any concept the Taco Twins and Chris Lower did.... I know they did a lot of travelling before they opened Back Door BBQ.

Hal Smith offers good service and what I consider "safe" food options. It fits picky eaters. Also the majority of the HSRG restaurants are the same menu/different names.... Mahogany and The Garage are the biggest exceptions to that but if you looked at Toby Kieth, Hollie's Flatiron, and Charlestons.... Almost identical menus.

[Urbanized]

Add Red Rock Canyon Grill to the list...lots of the dishes at Toby's for instance are (in some cases up-sized) versions of the same dishes at Red Rock. But that works for me, because I still really enjoy RRCG.

[Bill Robertson]

Why did you not identify the places you are posting about?

At the time I thought is was pretty rare and didn't want to risk liable/slander. Since it doesn't seem to be. The place we've been going is Taqueria El Camino and the original is Hacienda Tacos.

[Pete]

At the time I thought is was pretty rare and didn't want to risk liable/slander. Since it doesn't seem to be. The place we've been going is Taqueria El Camino and the original is Hacienda Tacos.

And what do you bet that Hacienda took 'inspiration' from another place?

To be fair, there is nothing like Taqueria El Camino in that area of town so that in itself is new and different, just like locals bring in concepts from other markets precisely because they aren't already here.

[securityinfo]

And locally, direct copies by folks that were "in the know"

Ted’s "influential" for:
Poblano Grill
Casa Perico
Alfredo’s

[Zuplar]

To get back to the original question asked, it kind of depends when it comes to ethics. This copypasta trend is by no means new. All types of businesses have done this. Many people back in the day would find an example of a business they wanted to start in a different region from theirs, ask the company or owner to consult, and many times what happens is the established business sells a business plan and consulting to the new business. Southwest Airlines is a perfect example of this. Back in the day before deregulation, Southwest went to a regional carrier called Pacific Southwest Airlines. At the time they were known for being a good place to work, friendly, cheap, and to have a sense of humor. Sound familiar? Unfortunately for PSA they later made some bad pivots and went out of business and the rest is history. But none of this is unethical, everyone was paid and now Southwest is known for a lot of what PSA built their company on.

For anyone curious this story is a featured segment of a fantastic business book I read in grad school: "Good to Great"

[Bill Robertson]

And what do you bet that Hacienda took 'inspiration' from another place?

To be fair, there is nothing like Taqueria El Camino in that area of town so that in itself is new and different, just like locals bring in concepts from other markets precisely because they aren't already here.

They most likely did take inspiration from another business. But to be hired as a consultant by a client then copy the clients pretty much everything seems too shady.
And we're very mobile. 122nd & May and Britton & MacArthur aren't that far apart to us.

[Pete]

They most likely did take inspiration from another business. But to be hired as a consultant by a client then copy the clients pretty much everything seems too shady.
And we're very mobile. 122nd & May and Britton & MacArthur aren't that far apart to us.

Fair enough.

You might want to talk to the people at El Camino before taking the word of a direct competitor.

[Swake]

Jeff Bezos once said “your margin is my opportunity”

This is the business model Amazon uses too. They copy other smaller companies all the time and kill them with scale.

[MagzOK]

The owner of Hacienda Tacos has several things on the menu inspired by places throughout New Mexico as he is a NM native. For example their Quiggly omelette for brunch is almost identical to the Diego omelette at Pasqual's in Santa Fe. He actually confirmed this to me when I referenced it (and how much I loved it) over brunch one day we were there. And actually it's that omelette which brings me there often for brunch. He went on to give me a list of his favorite restaurants in NM to go to when we're out there. The owner really is a wonderful man to talk with and he's ultra friendly when you can find him there.

[GoGators]

To get back to the original question asked, it kind of depends when it comes to ethics. This copypasta trend is by no means new. All types of businesses have done this. Many people back in the day would find an example of a business they wanted to start in a different region from theirs, ask the company or owner to consult, and many times what happens is the established business sells a business plan and consulting to the new business. Southwest Airlines is a perfect example of this. Back in the day before deregulation, Southwest went to a regional carrier called Pacific Southwest Airlines. At the time they were known for being a good place to work, friendly, cheap, and to have a sense of humor. Sound familiar? Unfortunately for PSA they later made some bad pivots and went out of business and the rest is history. But none of this is unethical, everyone was paid and now Southwest is known for a lot of what PSA built their company on.

For anyone curious this story is a featured segment of a fantastic business book I read in grad school: "Good to Great"

Oncue did this with QuikTrip. It was a genius move on their part.

[Bill Robertson]

Fair enough.

You might want to talk to the people at El Camino before taking the word of a direct competitor.

I emailed the owner of El Camino about wine before we went the first time. My wife will leave if you don't have Pinot Grigio. They got Pinot Grigio just for her. We met the owner the first time we went. The next few times we went he was there. Haven't seen him since and he hasn't responded to emails since except for flippant replies.
So as far as the evidence I see. Hacienda owner's side, online menus, FB and Instagram comparisons all add up to make me think if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck.

[Bill Robertson]

Oncue did this with QuikTrip. It was a genius move on their part.

But did QT hire OC as a consultant before being copied? That's the tipping point for me. If I hire you to consult with me to grow my business I don't expect you to copy my business and open your own.

[scottk]

But did QT hire OC as a consultant before being copied? That's the tipping point for me. If I hire you to consult with me to grow my business I don't expect you to copy my business and open your own.

Oncue isn't shy about "inspiration" coming from QuikTrip and taking cues from their business model in what is successful. QuikTrip has said they know their competition has copied their success and take it as a compliment that they must be doing something right.

https://www.cspdailynews.com/company...cting-quiktrip

Picasso has been quoted in saying, "good artists copy; great artists steal"

[baralheia]

I emailed the owner of El Camino about wine before we went the first time. My wife will leave if you don't have Pinot Grigio. They got Pinot Grigio just for her. We met the owner the first time we went. The next few times we went he was there. Haven't seen him since and he hasn't responded to emails since except for flippant replies.
So as far as the evidence I see. Hacienda owner's side, online menus, FB and Instagram comparisons all add up to make me think if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck.

Unless I'm missing something - or the menus posted on their websites are not current - I am not really seeing the alleged direct copying on their menus? I mean, there's certainly going to be some overlap for two joints that are bougie taquerias, but even in those overlap areas the preparations appear to be different. I mean, both offer a carnitas taco, but with different toppings. Both offer a barbacoa burrito, but again with different toppings. Both have menu items that are unique to their respective restaurants, like the green chile stew at Hacienda or the quesabirria torta at El Camino. So what's being copied?

[April in the Plaza]

Oncue isn't shy about "inspiration" coming from QuikTrip and taking cues from their business model in what is successful. QuikTrip has said they know their competition has copied their success and take it as a compliment that they must be doing something right.

https://www.cspdailynews.com/company...cting-quiktrip

Picasso has been quoted in saying, "good artists copy; great artists steal"

Would be nice if they stole some inspiration from Wawa as well. Limiting the grill menu to pizza, burgers, and chicken is a bit disappointing, imo.

[catch22]

There was an episode of American Greed recently where a woman in the San Diego area conned her way into being a very influential real estate "developer" (really she just attached her name to already successful developments and no one questioned it). Eventually, she either started or owned a restaurant that was a carbon copy of a popular restaurant in Miami. She got away with it for a while until people that visited the Miami (authentic) location were complementing the owners on them expanded to Southern California. Their response was to effect of: "What do you mean? this is our only store..." I think they stole everything including the menu and possibly even the name. Not a McDowell's/McDonald's situation but a McDonald's/McDonald's situation, everything was the exact same.

I'll see if I can find it as I may not be 100% on those details: I usually consume copious amounts of alcohol while watching network TV at home. It helps me get through the never-ending pharmaceutical commercials.

[Bill Robertson]

Unless I'm missing something - or the menus posted on their websites are not current - I am not really seeing the alleged direct copying on their menus? I mean, there's certainly going to be some overlap for two joints that are bougie taquerias, but even in those overlap areas the preparations appear to be different. I mean, both offer a carnitas taco, but with different toppings. Both offer a barbacoa burrito, but again with different toppings. Both have menu items that are unique to their respective restaurants, like the green chile stew at Hacienda or the quesabirria torta at El Camino. So what's being copied?

They're very similar. And I never said it's an absolute copy. I asked what level of copying would be unethical. And apparently the answer is that copying is fine. I've learned something. That's why I ask questions.

[MagzOK]

Would be nice if they stole some inspiration from Wawa as well. Limiting the grill menu to pizza, burgers, and chicken is a bit disappointing, imo.

Yes for Wawa! I gorged myself with their breakfast sandwiches last week while out east the last few weeks. We love Wawa!