Oklahoma Wants to be The Next Texas

[Just the facts]

This was in the New York Times this morning.

https://dnyuz.com/2023/03/02/oklahom...-imagine-that/

[Just the facts]

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

[chssooner]

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

My only problem with this is that it robs Peter to pay Paul. The funding would come from somewhere, and it would be property tax. I like my mortgage for a $150k house being about $1k a month. If they had to rely on property tax, then my mortgage would go up significantly. Texans pay more in taxes than we do, because of high property taxes.

Hence why no state income tax is a scam.

[MagzOK]

My only problem with this is that it robs Peter to pay Paul. The funding would come from somewhere, and it would be property tax. I like my mortgage for a $150k house being about $1k a month. If they had to rely on property tax, then my mortgage would go up significantly. Texans pay more in taxes than we do, because of high property taxes.

Hence why no state income tax is a scam.

^^^ Totally this. As a native Texan, I can tell you that Texas has no individual income tax, but property taxes are incredibly high.

It all washes out in the end.

[gopokes88]

"More than 100 companies have come to Oklahoma in the last five years, including 29 last year, and another 200 have announced expansions, according to the state Commerce Department, resulting in more than $10 billion in promised new investments. Six companies moved their headquarters to the state."

[Rover]

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

If you rank states by total tax burden, OK is 41st, Ohio is 19th and Tennessee is 49th.

[Celebrator]

I'm for a consumption tax (including on services) instead of property tax.

[Just the facts]

Here is the difference between income tax and property tax. The vast majority of people do everything within their power to maximize earnings. It is an almost universal desire. Even people with no education and no job skills play the lottery to maximize earnings. At the same time most people try to minimize their expenses - taxes being an expense. In states with income taxes you increase your expenses when you try to maximize your earnings. You have no choice.

With property tax I can 100% control how much taxes I am willing to pay. I can rent a house, I can rent an apartment, I can live full time in an RV, and I can pick where I want any of those to be located. I can buy a house or a condo and again I can pick where I want those to be and also how big they are.

It allows me total control to choose between taxes and public amenities. I have family members that don't like property taxes and don't value public amenities so they live in a mobile home out in the sticks. We personally prefer living downtown where property taxes are generally much higher but we offset that by only having one car and using public transit or just walking.

Furthermore I can also control how much sales taxes I want to pay. We can go have $100 steaks or $20 Mexican food for dinner. We can grocery shop at Whole Foods or Aldi.

Anyhow, you get the idea.

[Dob Hooligan]

So, rental properties are exempt from property tax?

[chssooner]

So, rental properties are exempt from property tax?

Don't let facts ruin his story. They definitely are not.

[stlokc]

I'm not an economist but if income taxes were replaced by property taxes, wouldn't that be to the detriment of the person who is struggling and not paying a high level of income tax now, but would be faced with a situation where their landlord would dramatically increase their rent to pay the property tax burden?

[Pete]

Plenty of studies have shown that Texas has a higher overall tax burden than Oklahoma, as shown here:

https://wallethub.com/edu/states-wit...x-burden/20494


Asserting that property tax doesn't impact everyone is like arguing since you don't directly pay corporate tax that those rates don't impact customers and citizens in general.

[LocoAko]

I know, I know, don't read the comments, but.... they provide an insight (one that is extremely unsurprising to many of us) about what prevents so many people from wanting to move here. For those interested in the state's growth, it's a real issue, whether or not people want to deal with it.

[chssooner]

I know, I know, don't read the comments, but.... they provide an insight (one that is extremely unsurprising to many of us) about what prevents so many people from wanting to move here. For those interested in the state's growth, it's a real issue, whether or not people want to deal with it.

Which is what? You are wanting a higher tax burden? Just wanting to make sure. I agree to an extent, but I don't think low taxes keep people from moving here. Unless you are talking about meaning having more cash to throw at companies to move here.

[Pete]

Which is what? You are wanting a higher tax burden? Just wanting to make sure. I agree to an extent, but I don't think low taxes keep people from moving here. Unless you are talking about meaning having more cash to throw at companies to move here.

He's talking about the comments on the NYT article, not on this thread.

[Just the facts]

Let's put this in a mathmatical equation

X income tax + Y property tax = Z tax burden

If you don't care about X and Y then what difference does it make to you so long as Z doesn't change?

[Pete]

Let's put this in a mathmatical equation

X income tax + Y property tax = Z tax burden

If you don't care about X and Y then what difference does it make to you so long as Z doesn't change?

But Z is higher in Texas than in Oklahoma when you also factor in sales tax.

So the tax burden is higher there even without state income tax.

[Just the facts]

So, rental properties are exempt from property tax?

They are but a landlord can't simply pass on 100% of property taxes increases. Business doesn't work that way because demand lines aren't linear. At $1000/mo an apartment complex might me 95% occupied, but at $1100 it could drop to 80% occupied. The owner can't just pass on the $100 increase because he would lose more money than if he just ate the $100 property tax increase.

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/ans...ctors%20change.

[Just the facts]

But Z is higher in Texas than in Oklahoma when you also factor in sales tax.

So the tax burden is higher there even without state income tax.

Yes Z is higher in Texas but so what? That is because Texas spends more person. It isn't like an income tax vs. sales tax is responsible for that.

[Just the facts]

New Hampshire to be 100% income tax free by 2027, become the 9th state to be income tax free.

https://arbcpa.com/new-hampshire-leg...al-income-tax/

Kentucky is also on track to eliminate their income tax which is especially attractive to me because Covington, KY is just a short walk across the Ohio River from downtown Cincinnati.

[chssooner]

Yes Z is higher in Texas but so what? That is because Texas spends more person. It isn't like an income tax vs. sales tax is responsible for that.

In what ways do they spend more per person? Not in ways that boost quality of life. They pay corporations a ton to move there. That is where a lot of that money goes. Gotta cover those massive tax breaks big companies get to move there. Doesn't get passed on to normal citizens in any way.

[Pete]

Yes Z is higher in Texas but so what? That is because Texas spends more person. It isn't like an income tax vs. sales tax is responsible for that.

You JUST started this argument by saying Oklahoma should lower taxes in order to match Texas population growth.

You are just arguing with yourself.

[jompster]

Here is the difference between income tax and property tax. The vast majority of people do everything within their power to maximize earnings. It is an almost universal desire. Even people with no education and no job skills play the lottery to maximize earnings. At the same time most people try to minimize their expenses - taxes being an expense. In states with income taxes you increase your expenses when you try to maximize your earnings. You have no choice.

With property tax I can 100% control how much taxes I am willing to pay. I can rent a house, I can rent an apartment, I can live full time in an RV, and I can pick where I want any of those to be located. I can buy a house or a condo and again I can pick where I want those to be and also how big they are.

It allows me total control to choose between taxes and public amenities. I have family members that don't like property taxes and don't value public amenities so they live in a mobile home out in the sticks. We personally prefer living downtown where property taxes are generally much higher but we offset that by only having one car and using public transit or just walking.

Furthermore I can also control how much sales taxes I want to pay. We can go have $100 steaks or $20 Mexican food for dinner. We can grocery shop at Whole Foods or Aldi.

Anyhow, you get the idea.

Renters DO pay property tax. It's usually bundled into the rent they are paying.

[stlokc]

Really interesting NY Times article; I actually had a friend send it to me this morning. I think it generally portrayed the city fairly, as ever I am impressed with the reasonableness of Mayor Holt.

Reading the NYT comments takes a strong stomach but I do hope people at the city and state level read those comments. It's important to remember that for a large segment of the American population, Oklahoma and Texas (and indeed everywhere in flyover country) are defined by the very worst of their impulses. People see what they want to see. Amid much self-congratulations on the urban advancements of OKC and Tulsa comes the reality that many, many people in the country do not want what our home state is selling. And many of those stereotypes are unfair (in much the same way that crime stereotypes in Chicago are also unfair) but that does not make them any less potent to the people that want to believe them.

[Bunty]

The wife and I are moving out of Jacksonville by Sept 30 of this year so we have spent the past 4 years looking for a new city to call home. After visiting 38 states in those 4 years we have narrowed it down to 3 cities - OKC, Knoxville, and Cincinnati. Income taxes are pretty high on our list which is why Knoxville made our top 3. Tennessee doesn't have a state income tax.

If Oklahoma wants real population growth then they need to eliminate the income tax.

If Oklahoma would repeal the sales tax on food, it would help a lot. It would be further nice if it included restaurant meals, but I heard many states don't do that.