2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

[Naptown12713]

It may be best to compare OKC and TUL air service to its peers such as OMA (Omaha - Eppley Field) ( RIC - Richmond International) and SDF (Louisville/Muhammad Ali International) to assess if the service level for the state two largest airports are better, equal or less than comparable metros. Just based off of these three metros, which are very similar in metro population, OKC and TUL have some definite gaps in service to be comparable with these peers that are reported.

[HOT ROD]

Especially OKC considering it's by far the largest city and metro population of the aformentioned airports yet has lower pax and worst service. OKC definitely needs to work on this, TUL is pulling above its weight by comparison given it's lower pop but even TUL is bigger metro than OMA and maybe Richmond.

Nice reminder of the OKC-TUL service, that'd be a thrill if Delta brought that back or United did it as a tag; DEN-OKC-TUL-ORD for example. Also yes, ABQ and COS were nonstops.

I recall the OKC-CLE flight as it was the only time I went to CLE, was shocked by the size of that airport in comparison.

[chssooner]

Like I said, OKC airport director has gotten lazy. Their new one is not very good, especially compared to their last one.

[BG918]

I’d be happy with at least 2x daily nonstop service to all the main hubs for AA, Delta, United, Alaska and Southwest

[unfundedrick]

Especially OKC considering it's by far the largest city and metro population of the aformentioned airports yet has lower pax and worst service. OKC definitely needs to work on this,

And what do you suggest that OKC do to work on it that they aren't doing?

[mugofbeer]

The last 2x l have flown to OKC on SW, the fare to DAL was < 1/2 price so it was cheaper to fly there and drive to OKC. When the fares to OKC are so high, of course airport use will be lower. Demand airlines charge fares making it worthwhile to go there and passenger volume wiil go up. SW hasn't always been this way.

[catch22]

The last 2x l have flown to OKC on SW, the fare to DAL was < 1/2 price so it was cheaper to fly there and drive to OKC. When the fares to OKC are so high, of course airport use will be lower. Demand airlines charge fares making it worthwhile to go there and passenger volume wiil go up. SW hasn't always been this way.

Let me know how that phone call works out.

“Yes, hello - we are wondering if you could actually lower your prices and make your flights less profitable here in Oklahoma City, we think it would boost our traffic counts so you can fly bigger airplanes and charge even lower prices to fill those extra seats, hello? — the line must have cut out”

[Celebrator]

Richmond and Louisville are benefited by geography. They are just located in more population-dense regions. They are located closer to more of the Midwest and east coast big cities and therefore aircraft can rotate through them more quickly resulting in higher utilization. I can guarantee you that if OKC was located where SDF and RIC were located, we would have better service, too. As far as OMA goes, I have heard that because they have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC, they have better air service. I have no idea if this is really true, or if they even have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC. I don't think their advantage is as much geography as it is economy.

[BG918]

Richmond and Louisville are benefited by geography. They are just located in more population-dense regions. They are located closer to more of the Midwest and east coast big cities and therefore aircraft can rotate through them more quickly resulting in higher utilization. I can guarantee you that if OKC was located where SDF and RIC were located, we would have better service, too. As far as OMA goes, I have heard that because they have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC, they have better air service. I have no idea if this is really true, or if they even have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC. I don't think their advantage is as much geography as it is economy.

Omaha has a huge catchment area and does have a bigger corporate community than OKC and Tulsa, even with a smaller metro population. If you’ve been there recently they also have quite the building boom happening.

[gopokes88]

Let me know how that phone call works out.

“Yes, hello - we are wondering if you could actually lower your prices and make your flights less profitable here in Oklahoma City, we think it would boost our traffic counts so you can fly bigger airplanes and charge even lower prices to fill those extra seats, hello? — the line must have cut out”

The amount of "oh you have no idea how any of this works do you" ideas that get thrown around is incredible.

Population growth for OKC will be the biggest driver of any of this. And OKC is growing at a good clip right now. Results will follow.

As far as I'm aware, OKC offers the same incentives everyone else does. Airlines are just constrained by equipment and pilots, plus economic storm clouds are gathering.

[catch22]

The amount of "oh you have no idea how any of this works do you" ideas that get thrown around is incredible.

Population growth for OKC will be the biggest driver of any of this. And OKC is growing at a good clip right now. Results will follow.

As far as I'm aware, OKC offers the same incentives everyone else does. Airlines are just constrained by equipment and pilots, plus economic storm clouds are gathering.

Short of directly subsidizing the airlines with cash money there is nothing the airport director can do to convince the airlines to add routes, as I have mentioned many times.

The airlines are the popular girls at the dance, they can have any guy they want. They choose where they want to go. Believe me they have the number for the OKC business office — they add routes where they have the most impact on the bottom line. The director can call every airline every single day and beg and plead for more service and it won’t change a dang thing. This fantasy that the airport director is sleeping on the job is a bit over the top.

[soonerguru]

Opposite experience yesterday. Flew DEN-TUL on United which was on a E145. I would’ve much preferred the Southwest 737. United only flying mainline on 1 of its 4 daily nonstops to DEN.

I refuse to fly United under any circumstances.

[PaddyShack]

How does one successfully book trips with Frontier. Like do you have to book one leg for OKC to DEN, and then book the second leg to another city? For instance, I tried OKC to Charleston/Myrtle Beach and Frontier's website said unavailable. But I can book a flight from DEN to one Myrtle Beach. I was looking at buying their summer pass but if I can only go to DEN or Las Vegas or I can go anywhere they fly starting from OKC then it may not be a good deal. Just wondering if any one flies Frontier enough to know the ins and outs of their system.

[Bits_Of_Real_Panther]

When did breeze leave okc?

I only see tulsa listed on the search page

[gopokes88]

When did breeze leave okc?

I only see tulsa listed on the search page

probably not enough passengers.

Big carriers do well in OKC, the start ups fail.

AA and SWA's Austin routes are doing just fine. Via Air crashed and burned.

Not sure if that's unique to OKC or not, but seems to be how it works.

[Edmond Hausfrau]

I refuse to fly United under any circumstances.

Pourquoi?

[brianinok]

Short of directly subsidizing the airlines with cash money there is nothing the airport director can do to convince the airlines to add routes, as I have mentioned many times.

The airlines are the popular girls at the dance, they can have any guy they want. They choose where they want to go. Believe me they have the number for the OKC business office — they add routes where they have the most impact on the bottom line. The director can call every airline every single day and beg and plead for more service and it won’t change a dang thing. This fantasy that the airport director is sleeping on the job is a bit over the top.

I'm not in the airline industry. But if incentives and recruiting didn't work, then airports wouldn't do it. But I also assume there is significant truth to what you are saying. Nevertheless, I believe OKC is underserved at the moment compared to what could be. Every flight I have been on in the last year has been completely full, or 1-2 seats short of it. That's no exaggeration. A couple were oversold. I've flown all 4 major carriers-- American, Delta, Southwest, United. Average airline load factors are in the 80s. OKC seems to be higher, though I don't know OKC's official figures. But fares are astronomical compared to other cities in our region-- Tulsa, DFW, Wichita. That tells me airlines are sending fewer planes to OKC and charging higher fares that other cities in our region. That's simple economics.

[catch22]

I'm not in the airline industry. But if incentives and recruiting didn't work, then airports wouldn't do it. But I also assume there is significant truth to what you are saying. Nevertheless, I believe OKC is underserved at the moment compared to what could be. Every flight I have been on in the last year has been completely full, or 1-2 seats short of it. That's no exaggeration. A couple were oversold. I've flown all 4 major carriers-- American, Delta, Southwest, United. Average airline load factors are in the 80s. OKC seems to be higher, though I don't know OKC's official figures. But fares are astronomical compared to other cities in our region-- Tulsa, DFW, Wichita. That tells me airlines are sending fewer planes to OKC and charging higher fares that other cities in our region. That's simple economics.

I work in a hub so I see a multitude of destinations on my gate every day. Every flight everywhere is full. The airline industry is overwhelmed with nearly unlimited domestic demand right now. You put an airplane somewhere and it will be full and it will make money. There is no incentive to be chasing market share somewhere when everything is full. Most of Tulsa’s growth has come from Allegiant type operations and routes. They always are searching for markets to tap into to stay away from the legacy airlines.

Out of the 7 departures scheduled for my gate this morning, all are full - there’s a total of 18 open seats between the 7 of them. These are just random United Express cities on E175 equipment. this is my 12th year with United, and this is unheard of demand for February which is typically a slow month across the board. If you are in United’s shoes why would you shuffle capacity around when what you are already flying is making money. You are trading one money making route for one of the same potential?

[amocore]

After wondering for years about the existence of this elusive phenom, I finally met the sasquatch of air travel for OKC: connecting passengers !

Yesterday I was on the San Antonio-OKC on SW, and my seats neighbors were heading to Saint Louis through a connection in OKC. Wild ! (at least for me).

good way to raise the passengers count !

[brianinok]

I work in a hub so I see a multitude of destinations on my gate every day. Every flight everywhere is full. The airline industry is overwhelmed with nearly unlimited domestic demand right now. You put an airplane somewhere and it will be full and it will make money. There is no incentive to be chasing market share somewhere when everything is full. Most of Tulsa’s growth has come from Allegiant type operations and routes. They always are searching for markets to tap into to stay away from the legacy airlines.

Out of the 7 departures scheduled for my gate this morning, all are full - there’s a total of 18 open seats between the 7 of them. These are just random United Express cities on E175 equipment. this is my 12th year with United, and this is unheard of demand for February which is typically a slow month across the board. If you are in United’s shoes why would you shuffle capacity around when what you are already flying is making money. You are trading one money making route for one of the same potential?

I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.

[gopokes88]

I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.

It is just not this simple. Cost of capital, labor, IT systems, plane delivery, plane retirement schedules, fuel, etc etc

[chssooner]

I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.

There is a reason OKC has almost a million more passengers. Bigger planes, higher frequencies, etc.

But OKC needs to add SFO back, and add Boston. With those, most bases will be covered. Adding more frequencies would be helpful, as well.

[BG918]

I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.

Funny you used DEN as an example. Fares to DEN are higher from TUL because of Frontier's exit on the route (and Tulsa market). Having Frontier on the route keeps fares lower on Southwest and United.

[HOT ROD]

And what do you suggest that OKC do to work on it that they aren't doing?

you obviously didn't read my post where I recommended the city offer incentive to new routes and to re-establish routes to previously served key hubs. AND I also recommended the city do more than just incentivize OKC residents through advertising, but that we also offer ads to the other end of the route to promote OKC in that market. The incentives could run for a predetermined time or until a market target is met.

the city is not doing this currently, so THAT is my recommendation. clear now?

[BG918]

Current top Southwest airports by # of departures - service from OKC:
DEN 304
LAS 277
MDW 260
BWI 219
DAL 208
PHX 200
HOU 169
MCO 169
BNA 162
STL 129