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Thread: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

  1. #151

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    It may be best to compare OKC and TUL air service to its peers such as OMA (Omaha - Eppley Field) ( RIC - Richmond International) and SDF (Louisville/Muhammad Ali International) to assess if the service level for the state two largest airports are better, equal or less than comparable metros. Just based off of these three metros, which are very similar in metro population, OKC and TUL have some definite gaps in service to be comparable with these peers that are reported.

  2. Post Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Especially OKC considering it's by far the largest city and metro population of the aformentioned airports yet has lower pax and worst service. OKC definitely needs to work on this, TUL is pulling above its weight by comparison given it's lower pop but even TUL is bigger metro than OMA and maybe Richmond.

    Nice reminder of the OKC-TUL service, that'd be a thrill if Delta brought that back or United did it as a tag; DEN-OKC-TUL-ORD for example. Also yes, ABQ and COS were nonstops.

    I recall the OKC-CLE flight as it was the only time I went to CLE, was shocked by the size of that airport in comparison.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  3. #153

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Like I said, OKC airport director has gotten lazy. Their new one is not very good, especially compared to their last one.

  4. #154

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    I’d be happy with at least 2x daily nonstop service to all the main hubs for AA, Delta, United, Alaska and Southwest

  5. #155

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    Especially OKC considering it's by far the largest city and metro population of the aformentioned airports yet has lower pax and worst service. OKC definitely needs to work on this,
    And what do you suggest that OKC do to work on it that they aren't doing?

  6. Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    The last 2x l have flown to OKC on SW, the fare to DAL was < 1/2 price so it was cheaper to fly there and drive to OKC. When the fares to OKC are so high, of course airport use will be lower. Demand airlines charge fares making it worthwhile to go there and passenger volume wiil go up. SW hasn't always been this way.

  7. #157

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    The last 2x l have flown to OKC on SW, the fare to DAL was < 1/2 price so it was cheaper to fly there and drive to OKC. When the fares to OKC are so high, of course airport use will be lower. Demand airlines charge fares making it worthwhile to go there and passenger volume wiil go up. SW hasn't always been this way.
    Let me know how that phone call works out.

    “Yes, hello - we are wondering if you could actually lower your prices and make your flights less profitable here in Oklahoma City, we think it would boost our traffic counts so you can fly bigger airplanes and charge even lower prices to fill those extra seats, hello? — the line must have cut out”

  8. Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Richmond and Louisville are benefited by geography. They are just located in more population-dense regions. They are located closer to more of the Midwest and east coast big cities and therefore aircraft can rotate through them more quickly resulting in higher utilization. I can guarantee you that if OKC was located where SDF and RIC were located, we would have better service, too. As far as OMA goes, I have heard that because they have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC, they have better air service. I have no idea if this is really true, or if they even have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC. I don't think their advantage is as much geography as it is economy.

  9. #159

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrator View Post
    Richmond and Louisville are benefited by geography. They are just located in more population-dense regions. They are located closer to more of the Midwest and east coast big cities and therefore aircraft can rotate through them more quickly resulting in higher utilization. I can guarantee you that if OKC was located where SDF and RIC were located, we would have better service, too. As far as OMA goes, I have heard that because they have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC, they have better air service. I have no idea if this is really true, or if they even have more Fortune 500 companies than OKC. I don't think their advantage is as much geography as it is economy.
    Omaha has a huge catchment area and does have a bigger corporate community than OKC and Tulsa, even with a smaller metro population. If you’ve been there recently they also have quite the building boom happening.

  10. #160

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Let me know how that phone call works out.

    “Yes, hello - we are wondering if you could actually lower your prices and make your flights less profitable here in Oklahoma City, we think it would boost our traffic counts so you can fly bigger airplanes and charge even lower prices to fill those extra seats, hello? — the line must have cut out”
    The amount of "oh you have no idea how any of this works do you" ideas that get thrown around is incredible.

    Population growth for OKC will be the biggest driver of any of this. And OKC is growing at a good clip right now. Results will follow.

    As far as I'm aware, OKC offers the same incentives everyone else does. Airlines are just constrained by equipment and pilots, plus economic storm clouds are gathering.

  11. #161

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by gopokes88 View Post
    The amount of "oh you have no idea how any of this works do you" ideas that get thrown around is incredible.

    Population growth for OKC will be the biggest driver of any of this. And OKC is growing at a good clip right now. Results will follow.

    As far as I'm aware, OKC offers the same incentives everyone else does. Airlines are just constrained by equipment and pilots, plus economic storm clouds are gathering.
    Short of directly subsidizing the airlines with cash money there is nothing the airport director can do to convince the airlines to add routes, as I have mentioned many times.

    The airlines are the popular girls at the dance, they can have any guy they want. They choose where they want to go. Believe me they have the number for the OKC business office — they add routes where they have the most impact on the bottom line. The director can call every airline every single day and beg and plead for more service and it won’t change a dang thing. This fantasy that the airport director is sleeping on the job is a bit over the top.

  12. #162

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
    Opposite experience yesterday. Flew DEN-TUL on United which was on a E145. I would’ve much preferred the Southwest 737. United only flying mainline on 1 of its 4 daily nonstops to DEN.
    I refuse to fly United under any circumstances.

  13. #163

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    How does one successfully book trips with Frontier. Like do you have to book one leg for OKC to DEN, and then book the second leg to another city? For instance, I tried OKC to Charleston/Myrtle Beach and Frontier's website said unavailable. But I can book a flight from DEN to one Myrtle Beach. I was looking at buying their summer pass but if I can only go to DEN or Las Vegas or I can go anywhere they fly starting from OKC then it may not be a good deal. Just wondering if any one flies Frontier enough to know the ins and outs of their system.

  14. #164

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    When did breeze leave okc?

    I only see tulsa listed on the search page

  15. #165

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bits_Of_Real_Panther View Post
    When did breeze leave okc?

    I only see tulsa listed on the search page
    probably not enough passengers.

    Big carriers do well in OKC, the start ups fail.

    AA and SWA's Austin routes are doing just fine. Via Air crashed and burned.

    Not sure if that's unique to OKC or not, but seems to be how it works.

  16. #166

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by soonerguru View Post
    I refuse to fly United under any circumstances.
    Pourquoi?

  17. Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Short of directly subsidizing the airlines with cash money there is nothing the airport director can do to convince the airlines to add routes, as I have mentioned many times.

    The airlines are the popular girls at the dance, they can have any guy they want. They choose where they want to go. Believe me they have the number for the OKC business office — they add routes where they have the most impact on the bottom line. The director can call every airline every single day and beg and plead for more service and it won’t change a dang thing. This fantasy that the airport director is sleeping on the job is a bit over the top.
    I'm not in the airline industry. But if incentives and recruiting didn't work, then airports wouldn't do it. But I also assume there is significant truth to what you are saying. Nevertheless, I believe OKC is underserved at the moment compared to what could be. Every flight I have been on in the last year has been completely full, or 1-2 seats short of it. That's no exaggeration. A couple were oversold. I've flown all 4 major carriers-- American, Delta, Southwest, United. Average airline load factors are in the 80s. OKC seems to be higher, though I don't know OKC's official figures. But fares are astronomical compared to other cities in our region-- Tulsa, DFW, Wichita. That tells me airlines are sending fewer planes to OKC and charging higher fares that other cities in our region. That's simple economics.

  18. #168

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brianinok View Post
    I'm not in the airline industry. But if incentives and recruiting didn't work, then airports wouldn't do it. But I also assume there is significant truth to what you are saying. Nevertheless, I believe OKC is underserved at the moment compared to what could be. Every flight I have been on in the last year has been completely full, or 1-2 seats short of it. That's no exaggeration. A couple were oversold. I've flown all 4 major carriers-- American, Delta, Southwest, United. Average airline load factors are in the 80s. OKC seems to be higher, though I don't know OKC's official figures. But fares are astronomical compared to other cities in our region-- Tulsa, DFW, Wichita. That tells me airlines are sending fewer planes to OKC and charging higher fares that other cities in our region. That's simple economics.
    I work in a hub so I see a multitude of destinations on my gate every day. Every flight everywhere is full. The airline industry is overwhelmed with nearly unlimited domestic demand right now. You put an airplane somewhere and it will be full and it will make money. There is no incentive to be chasing market share somewhere when everything is full. Most of Tulsa’s growth has come from Allegiant type operations and routes. They always are searching for markets to tap into to stay away from the legacy airlines.

    Out of the 7 departures scheduled for my gate this morning, all are full - there’s a total of 18 open seats between the 7 of them. These are just random United Express cities on E175 equipment. this is my 12th year with United, and this is unheard of demand for February which is typically a slow month across the board. If you are in United’s shoes why would you shuffle capacity around when what you are already flying is making money. You are trading one money making route for one of the same potential?

  19. #169

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    After wondering for years about the existence of this elusive phenom, I finally met the sasquatch of air travel for OKC: connecting passengers !

    Yesterday I was on the San Antonio-OKC on SW, and my seats neighbors were heading to Saint Louis through a connection in OKC. Wild ! (at least for me).

    good way to raise the passengers count !

  20. Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    I work in a hub so I see a multitude of destinations on my gate every day. Every flight everywhere is full. The airline industry is overwhelmed with nearly unlimited domestic demand right now. You put an airplane somewhere and it will be full and it will make money. There is no incentive to be chasing market share somewhere when everything is full. Most of Tulsa’s growth has come from Allegiant type operations and routes. They always are searching for markets to tap into to stay away from the legacy airlines.

    Out of the 7 departures scheduled for my gate this morning, all are full - there’s a total of 18 open seats between the 7 of them. These are just random United Express cities on E175 equipment. this is my 12th year with United, and this is unheard of demand for February which is typically a slow month across the board. If you are in United’s shoes why would you shuffle capacity around when what you are already flying is making money. You are trading one money making route for one of the same potential?
    I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

    And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.

  21. #171

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brianinok View Post
    I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

    And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.
    It is just not this simple. Cost of capital, labor, IT systems, plane delivery, plane retirement schedules, fuel, etc etc

  22. #172

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brianinok View Post
    I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

    And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.
    There is a reason OKC has almost a million more passengers. Bigger planes, higher frequencies, etc.

    But OKC needs to add SFO back, and add Boston. With those, most bases will be covered. Adding more frequencies would be helpful, as well.

  23. #173

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by brianinok View Post
    I don't think Tulsa's growth is only Allegiant. They've added all of American's hubs they didn't already have in the last few months. They now have equal service to OKC on American.

    And maybe airlines don't care about making MORE money. MOST businesses do. If the fares are the same to all of said cities, then what you say is correct. But, for instance, if the fare from DEN to TUL is $200 and DEN to OKC is $400, why don't they shift one flight a day to OKC? It would help them raise fares in TUL and they may not even need to lower them in OKC because of the demand. In this example, I just use TUL because I often see significantly cheaper fares from there than OKC. If airlines can't figure out this basic microeconomic principle then next time they need a bail out I won't be for it (for the first time), not that I have any pull besides one vote.
    Funny you used DEN as an example. Fares to DEN are higher from TUL because of Frontier's exit on the route (and Tulsa market). Having Frontier on the route keeps fares lower on Southwest and United.

  24. Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by unfundedrick View Post
    And what do you suggest that OKC do to work on it that they aren't doing?
    you obviously didn't read my post where I recommended the city offer incentive to new routes and to re-establish routes to previously served key hubs. AND I also recommended the city do more than just incentivize OKC residents through advertising, but that we also offer ads to the other end of the route to promote OKC in that market. The incentives could run for a predetermined time or until a market target is met.

    the city is not doing this currently, so THAT is my recommendation. clear now?
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  25. #175

    Default Re: 2023 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Current top Southwest airports by # of departures - service from OKC:
    DEN 304
    LAS 277
    MDW 260
    BWI 219
    DAL 208
    PHX 200
    HOU 169
    MCO 169
    BNA 162
    STL 129

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