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Thread: Panasonic Battery Plant

  1. #201

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    You have no idea if that was the primary reason.
    How would it not be? Businesses are in business to make money. Surely they at bare minimum factored this variable in.

  2. #202

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Jake View Post
    Major corporations and organizations that deal with them absolutely look at politics and the optics/ramifications that stem from them. To pretend otherwise is foolishness.
    Some do, sure. Not all do. And it's usually more along economic reasons than social.
    Funny how all of the sudden corporations are our friends and look out for us as bastions of social progress to the point we're willing to shell out $1.2 billion to them.


    Look everyone, for fearing risk of being banned I'll slow down on my responses here. And please know that I'm really not "trying" to defend anything or anyone in particular here as much as I'm trying to provide other points of views and variables that may have played a larger factor than the ones being discussed. Again, I'm just as disappointed as everyone else here.

  3. #203

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    All anyone is saying is that this is a good opportunity to understand why we failed.

    We can all opine about politics and money but we don't know for sure and we'll never know if we don't have some sort of independent and trustworthy evaluation.

    And I'd say that regardless of the party in power. We all want improvement but we first have to figure out what that even means.

  4. #204

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    You have no idea if that was the primary reason.
    As a business owner, if someone is willing to give you roughly 40% more of something for the same output, you take it. Panasonic isn't some bastion of progressivism, wanting to placate socially-conscious people. They are out to make the most and spend the least to do it.

  5. #205

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas are closely aligned in state politics. We are no more embarrassing than the others.

    Small town people in Carnegie are the same as small town people in Texas, Wyoming or Ohio. Work; fornicate; intoxicate; go to the diner; be suspicious of outsiders.

  6. #206

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    All anyone is saying is that this is a good opportunity to understand why we failed.

    We can all opine about politics and money but we don't know for sure and we'll never know if we don't have some sort of independent and trustworthy evaluation.

    And I'd say that regardless of the party in power. We all want improvement but we first have to figure out what that even means.
    Agreed but unfortunately given the political climate in Oklahoma I don’t think this will be chalked up to anything close to a meaningful discussion.

  7. #207

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyShack View Post
    I think we won out here, I am glad our tax dollars are not wrapped up in one company... I would rather see OK spend those package dollars on education reform, criminal justice reform, mental health reform, etc. If we diverted all of those "bring business to OK" (for lack of a better term) dollars towards our own infrastructure, then I guarantee we would see an influx of businesses.

    I say the same thing for the national level. If we were divert just half of the US defense budget to infrastructure and education, then we easily might solve a lot of the issues we have, which in turn positions us better in the world where we might not have to spend those defense dollars!
    How much money would Panasonic and it's spin off companies brought in over the years and decades? This is something that aggravates me. Everyone see $X and they can't grasp that that there would be money being brought in for years or decades to come. Bernie Sanders went on the senate floor today crying about giving chip manufacturers 50 billion to invest in the US. Nevermind the fact that we're paying, literally and figuratively, for not having much of a chip manufacturing presence in the US, and the fact that these companies would bring billions of economic development to the US. The shortsightedness is mind boggling to me.

  8. #208

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    In all honesty, I was thinking it would probably go to Kansas. Simply because our incentive package was smaller than what Kansas was offering. A big L for the state because of short sighted politicians.

  9. #209

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas may all be similar politically but one has consistently lagged behind in education at all levels and that directly impacts the labor force and influences the type of companies that are willing to move/relocate there.

  10. #210

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Because I am old, I have to mention that the GM plant was going to put us in the auto manufacturing industry big time when it opened around 1979. And tax issue or not, they left after 25 years. The upside, IMO, is that Tinker wound up with the facility and the largest employer in Oklahoma was enhanced by the transaction.

    Oklahoma City wound up in second place to Indianapolis when we tried to get the American Airlines maintenance facility in 1993-ish. The facility was ultimately not built out at anywhere near the scale promised, and Oklahoma City was motivated to become the MAPS capitol of the world.

  11. #211

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    Because I am old, I have to mention that the GM plant was going to put us in the auto manufacturing industry big time when it opened around 1979. And tax issue or not, they left after 25 years. The upside, IMO, is that Tinker wound up with the facility and the largest employer in Oklahoma was enhanced by the transaction.

    Oklahoma City wound up in second place to Indianapolis when we tried to get the American Airlines maintenance facility in 1993-ish. The facility was ultimately not built out at anywhere near the scale promised, and Oklahoma City was motivated to become the MAPS capitol of the world.
    It was United Airlines and absolutely was a driver behind the original MAPS.

    Don’t get mad get better

  12. #212

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Hard to get too mad on missing out on something that could be the next FoxConn or Solyndra or any other publicly white elephant. Take those funds and invest in infrastructure and education, especially in the metros, and draw businesses in by being a competitive and modern market, not with bags of taxpayer money.

  13. #213

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    All anyone is saying is that this is a good opportunity to understand why we failed.

    We can all opine about politics and money but we don't know for sure and we'll never know if we don't have some sort of independent and trustworthy evaluation.

    And I'd say that regardless of the party in power. We all want improvement but we first have to figure out what that even means.
    We agree on these points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas are closely aligned in state politics. We are no more embarrassing than the others.

    Small town people in Carnegie are the same as small town people in Texas, Wyoming or Ohio. Work; fornicate; intoxicate; go to the diner; be suspicious of outsiders.
    These are very true points.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHayes View Post
    How much money would Panasonic and it's spin off companies brought in over the years and decades? This is something that aggravates me. Everyone see $X and they can't grasp that that there would be money being brought in for years or decades to come. Bernie Sanders went on the senate floor today crying about giving chip manufacturers 50 billion to invest in the US. Nevermind the fact that we're paying, literally and figuratively, for not having much of a chip manufacturing presence in the US, and the fact that these companies would bring billions of economic development to the US. The shortsightedness is mind boggling to me.
    Definitely good points to consider but we don't have a crystal ball. Does anyone know where we can find all of the details from both packages? I'd like to compare the financials, guarantees, etc. vs. what Panasonic was projecting to bring in locally over the next 20 or so years.

  14. #214

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    I think this will be somewhat of a psychological blow for Oklahoma as their ego has been bruised! It will be interesting how Oklahoma proceeds forward, and if it will continue the status quo or begin to realize that if the State is going to compete long term, then it will need to change modes into the 21st century. That includes putting value on education, improve it's business climate and vote for the best interest of the State.

  15. #215

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Texas education is not great, even if they throw a ton of money at it. That latter part is important. They have a lot of money. Kansas gave 40% than Oklahoma could.

  16. #216

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    We can invest all this cash. As a state we refuse to invest cash. My lowly opinion is spend this. Spend more to educate our populace. I mean large amounts of scholarships.

  17. #217

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Oklahoma's emphasis needs to be on Education--long-term plans, can we stay focused.

    Why are places like Austin (UT) Tesla and now a Samsung $17 billion chip plant planned for '24; Dallas (North Texas State, UT Arlington, SMU-TCU) and Kansas City, MO (Kansas, Kansas State) luring the jobs away from Oklahoma. Higher Education is one among many of the pieces to this puzzle.

    This isn't something you can fix overnight. It all stems back to 'Quality of Life and Money.' Our two largest metros have moved in that direction since MAPS and VISION 2025. State and city leaders have got work in tandem to take advantage of OKC-TUL combo potential. Also another snall piece--it would have helped if Stitt had worked with the tribes, the damaged relationship he did to the tribes is irreparable.

    We are not going to get the big billion $ 'high tech cyber' companies. Again, Oklahoma focus needs to be more pro-active in education especially at state colleges & universities level.

    While we figure it out--the window of opportunity continue to close.

  18. #218

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisHayes View Post
    How much money would Panasonic and it's spin off companies brought in over the years and decades? This is something that aggravates me. Everyone see $X and they can't grasp that that there would be money being brought in for years or decades to come. Bernie Sanders went on the senate floor today crying about giving chip manufacturers 50 billion to invest in the US. Nevermind the fact that we're paying, literally and figuratively, for not having much of a chip manufacturing presence in the US, and the fact that these companies would bring billions of economic development to the US. The shortsightedness is mind boggling to me.
    I'm usually against most corporate subsidies, but the United States is going to be royally screwed if China invades Taiwan and cuts off our access to TSMC's semiconductors (used in all kinds of tech, smart phones, military hardware, etc.). If it costs $50B+ to secure a meaningful supply of domestic semiconductors, we should do it. But Congress is going to Congress I suppose.

  19. #219

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    50 billion on a national level is great investment for jumpstarting domestic semiconductor production, and it'll be a serious shame if that legislation does not pass.

  20. #220

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Semiconductors are vital to almost every product and business these days.

    We're seen the strong effect of constrained production over the last couple of years, and it's beyond the control of the U.S. as we produce only about 12% of the global market, down from 37% just 20 years ago.

  21. #221

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Companies like this are rare and we should be doing nearly anything to get them. My buddy lives in Pryor and what Google has done for that area is amazing. They’re investing in the schools more than ever because Google needs/wants smart talented well paid people even if it’s just for a data center. Which as these people make more money they want higher end stores and businesses eventually and the whole area continues to develop. We need more of that.

  22. #222

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Here is the press release from Panasonic.

    Note they specifically mentioned the skilled Kansas workforce (although I realize they are not going to come out and say they wanted more money).


  23. #223

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Do you remember seeing what Elon Musk wrote (which was later leaked) about meeting with Oklahoma reps?

    He basically said he was just paying them a courtesy. And of course the subtext was that it was an opportunity to use OK as leverage which is exactly what he did.

    For all we know, we were never in serious contention for this facility either.
    We werenít.

    But Musk was legitimately impressed too. Said so at the site meeting. You arenít getting it, but we are very very impressed.

  24. #224

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    It looks like the final incentive package from the state of Kansas was about $829 million. (There may also be additional local incentives)

    This is a great article that goes pretty in-depth regarding the entire process for landing the deal.

    https://kansasreflector.com/2022/07/...cturing-plant/

    A few quotes from the article:

    “Panasonic’s rejection of Kansas’ first offer for the plant inspired the Kelly administration and the Kansas Legislature to piece together a unique portfolio of incentives labeled APEX, or Attracting Powerful Economic Expansion. It gave the state flexibility to dangle a maximum of $1.3 billion in tax and other financial incentives to major employers thinking of locating in Kansas.

    Negotiations with Panasonic resulted in an $829.2 million state government incentive package featuring investment tax credits, payroll rebates, training and education aid, relocation funding, and construction sales tax exemptions. Those details were formally approved Wednesday by the State Finance Council after a closed-door briefing involving legislative leaders and the governor.”

    “The project was made possible through APEX legislation that led to an agreement under which Kansas pays Panasonic a 12.5% investment tax credit on expenditures for the building and equipment. That means Panasonic will receive $500 million over five years in state tax credits. The length of payment period for that credit was a point of negotiation between Panasonic and the state Department of Commerce.

    Another piece of APEX enabled Kansas to offer Panasonic $234 million in payroll rebates — a groundbreaking incentive tool in Kansas. Under this concept, Kansas pays Panasonic 10% of the company’s total payroll in Kansas for five years. This is a more aggressive instrument than the state’s existing PEAK incentive, which rebates state withholding taxes to economic development projects.”

    I thought this incentive was particularly interesting:

    “The company is in line for the state’s standard sales tax exemption, which could amount to $60.2 million. The state pledged $25 million for workforce education and training programs and $10 million to support relocation of workers to Kansas. The workforce training money would be available for five years, while the relocation fund is a new feature of Kansas’ economic development portfolio. Both are needed because the Kansas City metropolitan area doesn’t include enough people to fulfill Panasonic’s labor demands.


    The Kansas City Star article also cites $829 million as the final amount from the state (the article also mentions an “expected” local property-tax incentive from De Soto).
    https://www.kansascity.com/news/poli...263445783.html

  25. #225

    Default Re: Panasonic Battery Plant

    Re-reading that Panasonic release, this struck me:

    “We appreciate Kansas’s dedication to sustainability and its commitment to and growth in the clean and renewable energy space.”
    Could it be that Oklahoma is so tied up in fossil fuels that companies built around renewal energy question the state's ongoing commitment to their industry?

    Just something to think about.

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