Panasonic Battery Plant

[Laramie]

The Panasonic Battery Plant targeted for Pryor, appears to be a good get. There are details with benchmarks that need to be negotiated in advance prior to any state funds being scheduled for allocation.

[Just the facts]

Incentives or quality of life?

What would you rather have, a now closed United Airlines maintenance facility or MAPS 1?

[5alive]

Incentives now or with more focus on quality of life going forward.

[Just the facts]

Incentives are hit and miss. Companies don't live up to expectations, leave when the incentives end, get incentives for what they were going to do anyhow, get caught in an incentives trap (have to constantly provide incentives to the same entity), etc... Quality of life improves quality of life every time.

[PhiAlpha]

Incentives or quality of life?

What would you rather have, a now closed United Airlines maintenance facility or MAPS 1?

I don’t think it’s either/or as much as it is do both and choose wisely who you give the incentives to.

If electric vehicles (and electric everything) really are the future, as many people in this thread and abroad believe they are, then putting our money where our mouth is and investing incentive dollars to get a well funded/well known multinational company to build a massive battery plant here (instead of Kansas or Texas) seems like a good investment…and they very clearly wouldn’t have come here without it.

This seems like money much better spent then luring an airline maintenance facility (an industry that’s always in some state of flux…especially in the 90s and 00s), a Space travel company/space port (not a proven industry), or even Canoo (an early stage startup in a very young industry) as a few examples. At least it seems like a much more future safe investment than any of those were. I don’t love cranking out so much for things like this but in this specific case, I’m fine with it. We need to invest as a state in aerospace, tech, and transportation and I think this hits on two of those.

[Laramie]

I don’t think it’s either/or as much as it is do both and choose wisely who you give the incentives to.

If electric vehicles (and electric everything) really are the future, as many people in this thread and abroad believe they are, then putting our money where our mouth is and investing incentive dollars to get a well funded/well known multinational company to build a massive battery plant here (instead of Kansas or Texas) seems like a good investment…and they very clearly wouldn’t have come here without it.

This seems like money much better spent then luring an airline maintenance facility (an industry that’s always in some state of flux…especially in the 90s and 00s), a Space travel company/space port (not a proven industry), or even Canoo (an early stage startup in a very young industry) as a few examples. At least it seems like a much more future safe investment than any of those were. I don’t love cranking out so much for things like this but in this specific case, I’m fine with it. We need to invest as a state in aerospace, tech, and transportation and I think this hits on two of those.

+100

Recall when GM was here, IDK how much damage was done to Central Oklahoma's reputation when the MWC-Del City School District decided they wanted tax dollars due the District--had to do with turning off any future potential firms from locating here because it had been so long ago.

Both the firm and the City have obligations to uphold; these unions should produce something that benefits the parties involved where there is a 'give and take' on both sides. PhiAlpha, you mentioned about future safe investments and aerospace--Central Oklahoma has a good track record in aerospace.

[Just the facts]

I don’t think it’s either/or as much as it is do both and choose wisely who you give the incentives to.

With only so many tax dollars to distribute it really is an either/or situation. You used the word 'investment' which is thrown around a lot by the pro-incentive crowd, but what does the State (taxpayers) get in return for their investment? Sure the future employees get a paycheck but what does everyone else get for their money? When does the State break-even on the $700 million investment, because without a break-even point it isn't an investment at all. At that point
It just becomes a wealth transfer.

If you lose money on every 'investment' you can't make up for it volume.

[chssooner]

With only so many tax dollars to distribute it really is an either/or situation. You used the word 'investment' which is thrown around a lot by the pro-incentive crowd, but what does the State (taxpayers) get in return for their investment? Sure the future employees get a paycheck but what does everyone else get for their money? When does the State break-even on the $700 million investment, because without a break-even point it isn't an investment at all. At that point
It just becomes a wealth transfer.

If you lose money on every 'investment' you can't make up for it volume.

They get payroll taxes, property taxes from likely new apartments or houses, sales taxes from new purchases made by employees and employers. Like you really seem to not get it. On many topics.

This is why Texas is so ok with giving out incentives. They are growing like a weed, and have $25 billion surplus budgets annually. This also would help others look at Oklahoma for future expansions.

[5alive]

^^^Yes

[Plutonic Panda]

From Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/technology/p...do-2023-04-16/

[Just the facts]

They get payroll taxes, property taxes from likely new apartments or houses, sales taxes from new purchases made by employees and employers. Like you really seem to not get it. On many topics.

This is why Texas is so ok with giving out incentives. They are growing like a weed, and have $25 billion surplus budgets annually. This also would help others look at Oklahoma for future expansions.

Okay, so how long does it take the State to collect the $700 million in new taxes (existing residents are already paying those taxes) and since it is an investment when does the State reach a positive return (i.e. over-tax the corporation to pay for services rendered while they were paying taxes towards the principal)?

Also, Texas is $64 billion in debt. Texas State and Local debt is $417 billion. I could have a huge surplus too if I borrowed the money every year but eventually the debt catches up.

[chssooner]

Okay, so how long does it take the State to collect the $700 million in new taxes (existing residents are already paying those taxes) and since it is an investment when does the State reach a positive return (i.e. over-tax the corporation to pay for services rendered while they were paying taxes towards the principal)?

Also, Texas is $64 billion in debt.

https://www.texastribune.org/2023/03...%2024%20states.

When debt truly isn't debt. If you have more than enough funds to pay the debt payments, then it isn't debt. They were funds spent to better the economy of the state.

[Just the facts]

They get payroll taxes, property taxes from likely new apartments or houses, sales taxes from new purchases made by employees and employers. Like you really seem to not get it. On many topics.

This is why Texas is so ok with giving out incentives. They are growing like a weed, and have $25 billion surplus budgets annually. This also would help others look at Oklahoma for future expansions.

Okay, so how long does it take the State to collect the $700 million in new taxes (existing residents are already paying those taxes) and since it is an investment when does the State reach a positive return (i.e. over-tax the corporation to pay for services rendered while they were paying taxes towards the principal)?

Anyhow, I've said my piece on the subject. Back to the regularly scheduled program.

[mugofbeer]

Okay, so how long will it take you to invest $100k in the stock market to recoup your $100k investment?

You clearly aren't reading the forum posts because it was partially answered not 3 posts above.....

"They get payroll taxes, property taxes from likely new apartments or houses, sales taxes from new purchases made by employees and employers. Like you really seem to not get it."

To this, add income tax from employee earnings, corporate income tax from additional revenue generated by utilities and local suppliers, new revenue from ancillary businesses that will pop-up around the industrial park and nearby residential development, indirect benefit from other businesses that may start looking at OK, the list is endless. All you have to do is read the posts before asking what's already been answered multiple times, open the door to your mind and at least try to research things for yourself.

[Just the facts]

Okay, so how long will it take you to invest $100k in the stock market to recoup your $100k investment?

If the stock goes up I can get the $100k back as fast as I can sell it.

[gopokes88]

Okay, so how long does it take the State to collect the $700 million in new taxes (existing residents are already paying those taxes) and since it is an investment when does the State reach a positive return (i.e. over-tax the corporation to pay for services rendered while they were paying taxes towards the principal)?

Also, Texas is $64 billion in debt. Texas State and Local debt is $417 billion. I could have a huge surplus too if I borrowed the money every year but eventually the debt catches up.

Non-sequitur, govts can always raise taxes to cover their debt. An individual can’t.

[David]

Not a fan of the sheer size of the bucket of money that OK would be paying for this, but I'd rather spend a billion dollars on a plant that gets us a piece of the EV battery production market than something like a professional sports stadium. And we know that the people in our legislature could be choosing worse things to waste money on.

[Pete]

If Pryor and the Tulsa area gets a billion in tax money for an employer, let's see the same money spent in Central Oklahoma.

Otherwise, this money is going to be spent a very long way from most of the people who will be paying for it.

[Just the facts]

If Pryor and the Tulsa area gets a billion in tax money for an employer, let's see the same money spent in Central Oklahoma.

Otherwise, this money is going to be spent a very long way from most of the people who will be paying for it.

If the State offered a voluntary contribution option dedicate specifically to a Corporate Incentives Fund it would get almost $0. People would never do this on their own.

[Midtowner]

+100

Recall when GM was here, IDK how much damage was done to Central Oklahoma's reputation when the MWC-Del City School District decided they wanted tax dollars due the District--had to do with turning off any future potential firms from locating here because it had been so long ago.

Buyer beware.

And especially beware of committees of ruling class people who are only pretending to be able to legally dole out public resources without having any actual authority to do so. Had GM done its due diligence, they would have known the OIA was a house of cards.

[mugofbeer]

If Pryor and the Tulsa area gets a billion in tax money for an employer, let's see the same money spent in Central Oklahoma.

Otherwise, this money is going to be spent a very long way from most of the people who will be paying for it.

Oklahoma City hopefully has secured the Canoo facility and has multiple job expansions announced at Tinker from Pratt and Whitney and, most recently, Kratos. NE Oklahoma has good, large, flat and ready-to-build-on land which central OK does not. OKC and the western suburbs would be wise to recruit industrial developers to prepare land along I-40 west to be developed. I still say the land Crossroads Mall occupied is perfect large-scale land just going to waste.

[Jeremy Martin]

Crossroads needs to come down. Logically what should go in it's place?

[Laramie]

OIA - Oklahoma Industries Authority https://www.okindustriesauthority.org/

I-240 Land Parcel
OIA acquired this 577 acre parcel in SE Oklahoma City as a way to recruit and build a job base for industrial job development in Oklahoma County. This site was recognized as one of the best locations for industrial development in the entire metroplex.

$255 million investment coming to Oklahoma City’s aerospace industry: https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/dev...Whitney3_24_23

KC 46-A Hangars
The Air Force selected Tinker Air Force Base to maintain KC 46-A fueling tankers. OIA purchased property from BNSF Railway and provided it to the Air Force to construct hangars and other facilities necessary to maintain these new tankers, creating over 1,300 new jobs and over $500 million in new investments.

Oklahoma City boasts top bond ratings: https://www.greateroklahomacity.com/...-bond-ratings/

Oklahoma City’s share of the state’s real GDP was 35.2% in 2001 but has grown to 41.1% in 2021: https://www.velocityokc.com/blog/eco...ack=super_blog

[PhiAlpha]

With only so many tax dollars to distribute it really is an either/or situation. You used the word 'investment' which is thrown around a lot by the pro-incentive crowd, but what does the State (taxpayers) get in return for their investment? Sure the future employees get a paycheck but what does everyone else get for their money? When does the State break-even on the $700 million investment, because without a break-even point it isn't an investment at all. At that point
It just becomes a wealth transfer.

If you lose money on every 'investment' you can't make up for it volume.

If it developed into a cluster of EV manufacturing, battery plants, and all the other associated facilities thus essentially developing a new industry for the state…it’s worth the investment and they’ll make the money back in all the ways everyone else outlined. I think that’s possible given the EV manufactures/EV supply chain companies’ preference for renewable power (which that area has an abundance of) and its unique location in the middle of a country with access to a port, railways and a large commercial airport all within 30 minutes or so by highway.

[Just the facts]

Yeah, the problem with that logic though is that every support company also receives incentives. The "loss leader" strategy only works at the grocery store.