Turnpikes getting Highway Numbers

[KHutch66]

My concern with that stretch of SH-9 is less capacity-related and more safety related—I live in Norman and work in Blanchard and plenty of times I've had to hit the brakes because of someone in front of me suddenly deciding to hang a left at 70 MPH. You could take a page out of MoDOT's book and play around with some superstreet concepts like they've done on Route 13 north of Springfield, but at some point, with the way McClain County is growing, the only solution is going to be either to step down to stoplights like SH-9 in Norman and really feel the pain, or step up to a freeway.

I definitely know what you're talking about with the reckless driving on SH-9. Turning onto SH-9 is pretty dangerous too in itself for some stretches as the large hills obscure the view of coming traffic. Please no stop lights!! lol

[Plutonic Panda]

It’s all been approved on the state level just waiting for AASHTO’s approval:

"The interstate designation will — has a few more steps to go through. That will have to go to the AASHTO routing and numbering committee, and then on to [the Federal Highway Administration] for their approval, which will take a little bit of time," Gatz said.

- https://www.publicradiotulsa.org/pos...hways#stream/0

[floyd the barber]

It would be great, if like one day a month, Oklahoma declared a no toll day on Sundays to open up traffic.

Tolls are such a scam. I know there are politics behind everything and I don't know it all, but the tolls probably make billions and none of that money seems to be reinvested into the state.

It would be nice to travel around to see family and do errands without worrying about PikePass balances.

But it would never happen.

[Urbanized]

I’m no fan of turnpike tolls either, but for the sake of keeping the discussion grounded in reality, OTA doesn’t take in “billions” in tolls. In 2019 it was apparently around $330 million. The construction and operations of turnpikes are paid for almost exclusively via tolls. Here are the numbers reported for 2019:

Operations and maintenance: $101 million
Capital plan: $120.1 million
Debt payments: $140.1 million

In most cases turnpikes are built where there is a desire to have a highway but where there aren’t available tax dollars to do so. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority sells bonds to cover construction, and the bonds are repaid over time (the debt payments listed). The building of highways is amazingly expensive.

The OTA also pays for the State Troopers who patrol the turnpikes, plus has considerable personnel in the form of maintenance crews, engineers, administrative personnel and others.

Turnpike tolls aren’t fun, but to be clear they also aren’t scams. They’re essentially user fees that pay for roads that otherwise the state couldn’t afford to build without them. They are honestly a lot more fair than something paid for by non-users via a regressive tax.

[floyd the barber]

I’m no fan of turnpike tolls either, but for the sake of keeping the discussion grounded in reality, OTA doesn’t take in “billions” in tolls. In 2019 it was apparently around $330 million. The construction and operations of turnpikes are paid for almost exclusively via tolls. Here are the numbers reported for 2019:

Operations and maintenance: $101 million
Capital plan: $120.1 million
Debt payments: $140.1 million

In most cases turnpikes are built where there is a desire to have a highway but where there aren’t available tax dollars to do so. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority sells bonds to cover construction, and the bonds are repaid over time (the debt payments listed). The building of highways is amazingly expensive.

The OTA also pays for the State Troopers who patrol the turnpikes, plus has considerable personnel in the form of maintenance crews, engineers, administrative personnel and others.

Turnpike tolls aren’t fun, but to be clear they also aren’t scams. They’re essentially user fees that pay for roads that otherwise the state couldn’t afford to build without them. They are honestly a lot more fair than something paid for by non-users via a regressive tax.

Is there a public archive to see where that money is being spent? You are getting those figures from somewhere.

I'm just a cynic. I just feel like we are being taken advantage of. Thank God we are in no way comparable to Florida's Sunpass.

I just think we pay enough taxes in gasoline that it just leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. But I get it. The Turnpike is a different animal.

But I think the state suffers when we have a disconnect between Tulsa and OKC. I know it seems petty but spending money to go to a big metro within state seems lame. I know I could take another route but who wants to spend 3 hours to get to Tulsa.

I come from a state where tolls don't exist. It just seems so bizarre to me. It is what it is though.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^^
I just did a quick grab from Wikipedia - which is admittedly fraught with peril - but there are fairly comprehensive annual reports, budgets and the like here.

I think the biggest problems we have in Oklahoma are a pretty thin population base, sprawling cities, and long distances between population centers. Lots of places we’d like to have roads, not so many tax dollars to cover them.

[scottk]

https://oklahoma.gov/content/dam/ok/...nualReport.pdf

On Page 82 of the 2020 report, you can see that Turner, Will Rogers, Kilpatrick, HE Bailey, and Creek are the money makers for turnpikes and pull the weight for the other turnpikes that don't connect major cities or are located in urban areas. Oklahoma "cross pledges" on turnpikes so revenue is shared between all of them, so while the Turner easily makes millions

I recall in order to build the Creek and Kilpatrick, rural legislators forced the Chickasaw Turnpike, even though the OTA knew that it would lose money in the long run as a turnpike.

I think Kansas was fortunate that they have one turnpike to maintain that connects all of their key cities (Wichita, Topeka, Lawrence, Kansas City)

[Scott5114]

Every mile of toll road is a mile that isn't paid for out of the transportation fund/gas tax money. That leaves more money to be used to maintain the free highways, so you benefit even if you never use the toll roads. As scottk mentioned, the Turner and Will Rogers turnpikes make enough money to basically pay for the rest of the system, so even lightly-used turnpikes are paid for. The Cherokee, for instance, was built as a safety improvement through some rugged terrain that ODOT couldn't afford to build a freeway through. The toll money from I-44 paid for it.

It should be noted too that Oklahoma's toll roads are about the cheapest on a cost-per-mile basis in the entire country. It's a bargain compared to Texas, for instance. Oklahoma turnpikes are also totally optional for the most part as well; not like the NY toll bridges where there's no free option anywhere nearby. You are definitely not getting ripped off when you choose to drive on an OTA road.

[Jersey Boss]

I’m no fan of turnpike tolls either, but for the sake of keeping the discussion grounded in reality, OTA doesn’t take in “billions” in tolls. In 2019 it was apparently around $330 million. The construction and operations of turnpikes are paid for almost exclusively via tolls. Here are the numbers reported for 2019:

Operations and maintenance: $101 million
Capital plan: $120.1 million
Debt payments: $140.1 million

In most cases turnpikes are built where there is a desire to have a highway but where there aren’t available tax dollars to do so. The Oklahoma Turnpike Authority sells bonds to cover construction, and the bonds are repaid over time (the debt payments listed). The building of highways is amazingly expensive.

The OTA also pays for the State Troopers who patrol the turnpikes, plus has considerable personnel in the form of maintenance crews, engineers, administrative personnel and others.

Turnpike tolls aren’t fun, but to be clear they also aren’t scams. They’re essentially user fees that pay for roads that otherwise the state couldn’t afford to build without them. They are honestly a lot more fair than something paid for by non-users via a regressive tax.

Thanks for providing a clear and unambigious justification on "pay as you go". There is no free lunch. Time is money so the consumer has a choice here.

[Jeremy Martin]

The "cross pledge" is where this all goes south for me. The OTA can charge any fee they would like for you to drive on EVERY road they maintain as long as they owe money on ANY road they maintain. Be honest, will they ever not have an open bond? No, why would they put themselves out of a job? I am 100% for paying a use tax to maintain the roads I travel. But when the OTA builds roads that they know will lose money for 30 years, do we really need a turnpike there? It's just greed and job security for the OTA.
I know some will say that turnpikes bring opportunities and commerce to areas where that wasn't possible because of existing infrastructure. However, building a road that you know will lose money is in our best interest and only possible because the rest of us just accept that we are going to get stuck with the bill.

[mugofbeer]

Many of these toll roads are pork barrel. Put a toll road in my district and l'll vote for your larger road proposal. Look at the too road I35 up to Ada, Indian Nations an probably the Tulsa to Arkansas road.

[BoulderSooner]

The "cross pledge" is where this all goes south for me. The OTA can charge any fee they would like for you to drive on EVERY road they maintain as long as they owe money on ANY road they maintain. Be honest, will they ever not have an open bond? No, why would they put themselves out of a job? I am 100% for paying a use tax to maintain the roads I travel. But when the OTA builds roads that they know will lose money for 30 years, do we really need a turnpike there? It's just greed and job security for the OTA.
I know some will say that turnpikes bring opportunities and commerce to areas where that wasn't possible because of existing infrastructure. However, building a road that you know will lose money is in our best interest and only possible because the rest of us just accept that we are going to get stuck with the bill.

the voters of the state of Oklahoma voted to cross pledge the entire turnpike system