Boardwalk at Bricktown / Dream Hotel

[Pete]

The FAA approval is just a stunt.

It's a minor procedural thing that usually only takes a few weeks. IMO, the fact Matteson is doing this now -- long before he has even submitted plans for the first phase -- is just another way of seeking publicity, which he seems to love.

[HOT ROD]

you may be right Pete, but wouldn't that also be a due diligence step someone also seeking a variance from the city would take? Wouldn't it be more skeptical if he was seeking a variance from the city and DIDN'T also seek from the FAA? Didn't Devon do the exact same thing?

We may be on different sides of this fence, where you're appearing to be looking for the negative/skeptic on this developer/project, but I think we should be fair in our findings particularly if it is common or procedural - rather than presupposing a position in order to support other findings you've discovered.

I have no choice but to agree with you on some of the funding aspect of Legends Tower, but I could still see that phase 1 was announced at $736 million, maybe it might make sense $76X could build Legends Tower. IDK but I'm not going to say his FAA app is a PR stunt, it's a natural step and why not do it now for the whole site.

[Pete]

This is what I cannot understand. Why are some of you so invested in this being real, despite the evidence and common sense telling us otherwise? It is one of those things that is so obviously fake/scammy, but there’s a subset of the population dead set on believing it. It’s very odd.

This is an internet phenomenon.

Typically, someone posts something in writing and can't deny what they said or didn't say. Often, that original stance is from the hip and reflects some bias and/or the desire to prove someone wrong whom they have battled with in the past. Also, it's sometimes obvious someone is just in a crappy, negative mood and wants to vent without any real basis in fact.

So, it starts with something not very well thought out and often completely wrong, this person gets called on it, then starts a defense that can last for years and often takes off on numerous tangents in increasingly wild attempts to save face, while in actuality they are destroying all credibility.

How many times do people say here (let alone other discussion forums that don't have a tiny fraction of our decorum), "My bad. I was wrong. Thanks for the info." It happens some here but mostly you just get an endless pissing contest where the person on the back foot probably doesn't even believe what they are posting. And therefore, no amount of facts and evidence will do anything but prompt more illogical argument.


A quick and obvious example of this is a few people who insist on bashing Penn Square Mall. An uninformed and negative post is made without a lot of thought (it hasn't been renovated in 30 years, it's always empty, all the stores are leaving), lots of people present a long list of facts that prove them wrong, and all these defensive people do is lie in wait for anything that might remotely support their previous assertations and then start all over again.

[Pete]

you're appearing to be looking for the negative/skeptic on this developer/project, but I think we should be fair in our findings particularly if it is common or procedural - rather than presupposing a position in order to support other findings you've discovered.

It should be obvious that SOMEONE in this city has to do real work to ask questions and to verify things that seem to defy common sense.

The local papers and news stations do nothing but aid people attempting to scam by giving them endless promotion, printing whatever they say, and not even being willing or prepared in advance to ask obvious questions.

So, I feel compelled to counter some of this craziness, especially because several times in the past I've help expose some really bad things.


I only take this stance when we get the crazy local media hype combined with facts that are in obvious conflict. There are hundreds if not thousands of developments I've covered and maybe 5-6 where I've played devil's advocate. In every instance once these things play out, there are serious problems revealed; we're seeing that now with Strawberry Fields. And given the weird culture in OKC, I catch a lot of crap for not being a blind cheerleader -- or more correctly, a Useful Idiot.

[BDP]

I'm still wondering why the scrutiny now on 'sneaking' in a 4th tower when it was always there as a future phase, as I pointed out known as tower 3.

Good thing print/documentation exists.

This is the original plan that what was shown to the Planning Commission 6 months before the posts you referenced:



No one is saying anything about "sneaking" anything in. Just clarifying what was originally presented to the city: 3 towers, comprised of 2 hotel and one residential tower.

No reason to assume any malice.

[jn1780]

The residential towers are in three phases, they are slated to start one year after the previous phase, but I can tell you that is what the very best case that developer hopes for and phases two and three will start as demand allows. What is the current absorption rate in Oklahoma City for premium high rise apartments? Is there a precedent that shows the market can take on 300+ units per year?

So to recap there was a cautious realistic " best case scenario" timeline for three towers less than a year ago, but now the developer is talking like he has funding for everything and a 4th tallest residential tower is just around the corner. Pending FAA approval of course.

[BDP]

We may be on different sides of this fence, where you're appearing to be looking for the negative/skeptic on this developer/project, .

I think it's more of a matter that he's the only one really looking into the claims surrounding the developer. I'm sure if there was an 1100 ft building in Miami that Matteson spearheaded, Pete would have gladly shared that information with us. But not only did Matteson not develop such a building, no such building exists. It's not "negative/skeptical" to refute bogus claims. it's just factual reporting.

[Pete]

I think it's more of a matter that he's the only one really looking into the claims surrounding the developer. I'm sure if there was an 1100 ft building in Miami that Matteson spearheaded, Pete would have gladly shared that information with us. But not only did Matteson not develop such a building, no such building exists. It's not "negative/skeptical" to refute bogus claims. it's just factual reporting.

Right, and once you catch someone in an obvious lie, they have invited scrutiny.

I was suspicious before this was even announced in its far more humble scope. I had talked to several local people behind the scenes who had been approached about this project and all felt like it was unrealistic. And this was back when it was three towers, two hotels, and infinitely more modest. All of them passed and to this day I haven't heard of anyone in OKC who has opted in.

Then, I immediately started to research Matteson. I would have been thrilled to find all these amazing projects with his role clearly defined, but I couldn't find anything recent at all and then he started to claim projects as 'his' when he was clearly taking credit for the work of other people.

That is a lot of red flags long before things got really crazy.

[PhiAlpha]

]it is quite interesting how people defend projects like BP and AE[/B], which there's NO movement and no evidence of an actual project/plan. Yet those same people are trashing Boardwalk forgetting what we all discussed just 6 months ago - long before Legends Tower. im so confused, Boardwalk has and is completing logical steps towards a launch yet it's dismissed as sketchy yet BP and AE have done nothing but delay and when I or others raise concern we're rebutted as not being in OKC or lending BP developer credibility because of what they're doing in another market. ...

I stand by my opinion, that this project is moving forward. They're going through the process and given the approval of the original design - I expect Phase 1 will proceed. If the FAA approves and the city gives variance in June, then one would expect permitting and a start thereafter if the funds are there.

OMG, that's because the people behind those projects are reputable developers with deep pockets and a solid track record who, as a bonus, many of us here know personally. How the hell is that even a relevant comparison to some random guy from California who no one had heard of, that constantly exaggerates, said he's going to build the tallest building in america here, apparently has no track record and is working with a guy that people have lambasted here for massively under delivering on several of his developments?

You guys are wild.

[PhiAlpha]

here is the original site plan, note there's 4 towers and tower 3 (now known as Legends Tower supertall) is oriented to Reno Ave with the twins at the RR and hotel unchanged at Reno and Oklahoma.

I'm still wondering why the scrutiny now on 'sneaking' in a 4th tower when it was always there as a future phase, as I pointed out known as tower 3. Tower 4 is the hotel and was always there just not in city plans when referencing TIF (due to Omni). The only changes have been the heights, the placements of the towers (twins moved towards Reno, Tower 3 moved to OKC blvd, and Tower 3 being a supertall known as Legends.

Good thing print/documentation exists.

You're proving our point. This post shows 3 towers. Where are you seeing 4 proposed towers?

[Richard at Remax]

I think two lines of thoughts are perfectly OK to have at the same time:

1) you really would love for this to come to fruition and think it's awesome to see proposals like this
2) you also realize none of this is adding up and 1000% absurd and (the supertall) is not going to happen in our lifetime

Thinking #1 but not #2, you are just setting yourself up for massive disappointment and egg on your face by dying on that hill.

[bison34]

I think two lines of thoughts are perfectly OK to have at the same time:

1) you really would love for this to come to fruition and think it's awesome to see proposals like this
2) you also realize none of this is adding up and 1000% absurd and not going to happen in our lifetime

Thinking #1 but not #2, you are just setting yourself up for massive disappointment and egg on your face by dying on that hill.

I think #2 isn't 100% fair, because I think the shorter towers are going to happen. But the supertall is not. Something may come of it. But it will be downsized considerably.

But part x being wrong doesn't mean parts a through w are also wrong. I think he went about it wrong by bringing up the tower so soon. I agree with everyone on that.

[Richard at Remax]

^ I edited the comment to reflect the supertall. But still very iffy on everything else. I don't care about the $200mil gift, it just all smells to me.

[Pete]

An involuntary Chapter 7 bankruptcy was filed against Matteson in 2020 for a large sum owed to an attorney, amounts that had been previously set through two court judgments. Ultimately, it looks like the matter was settled out of court. The address shown for Matteson is in an apartment complex.

Also, Matteson lists a development in Aspen on his resume but fails to mention that in 2016 a subsidiary of Centurian formed to build a hotel nearby went into bankruptcy and was forced to sell the land.

https://www.aspendailynews.com/lodge...f5ff5ef0a.html

[G.Walker]

Centurion Partners leading the lodging charge

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/cent...odging-charge/

[Pete]

Centurion Partners leading the lodging charge

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/cent...odging-charge/

That's another "I'm gonna" article from 10 years before they had to declare bankruptcy (the article I posted above yours) on one of the sites.

It does appear the group completed the one 34-suite timeshare project, but in that same article Matteson talks about a bunch more projects that never happened (2nd condo tower in San Diego, a golf course development in Cancun, basically everything else in Aspen but the one timeshare).

[G.Walker]

Condo Developer Centurion Busy in Aspen, San Diego

https://www.ocbj.com/news/condo-deve...pen-san-diego/

[G.Walker]

Hotel Icon deal a slam-dunk

https://www.bizjournals.com/houston/...slam-dunk.html

[PhiAlpha]

I think #2 isn't 100% fair, because I think the shorter towers are going to happen. But the supertall is not. Something may come of it. But it will be downsized considerably.

But part x being wrong doesn't mean parts a through w are also wrong. I think he went about it wrong by bringing up the tower so soon. I agree with everyone on that.

Again, based on what?

[G.Walker]

Newport Beach Builder Signs on to $20B Miami Project

https://www.ocbj.com/news/newport-be...-to-20b-miami/

[bison34]

Again, based on what?

The fact they are reasonable, not exorbitant, and not outlandish. It's the same reason I don't believe the supertall will happen. Hogan is a reputable developer in OKC. May have destroyed lower Bricktown, but he has connections all over, and isn't claiming to be anything he's not. Matteson has done a project like this (San Diego and Aspen, both of which have much more expensive real estate and construction costs than here). But never a supertall. Hence why I don't believe that will happen.

I could be wrong and it sits empty for decades.

[mrokc777]

What exactly is the “scam” you are referring to? It may be unrealistic. It may be unwise. But getting the gullible public gossipers all in a frenzy isn’t a scam. Applying for and getting approval for TIF by itself isn’t a scam. Getting the money transferred to them with false information or getting money up front on false pretenses would be a scam. Getting the investors to transfer money or value to them under false pretenses would be a scam. Issuing drawings, having meetings and going on a pr journey isn’t scamming. That’s done every day on lots of legitimate projects.

Now, buying everything they say and repeating it without investigating or considering the caution signs isn’t results of a scam either..lt’s just signs of an insecure and overly anxious audience who wants validation.

Rover, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

[HOT ROD]

Pete, thanks for the feedback and BDP for your thoughts. I definitely appreciate good investigative journalism but it seems to be bleeding away from the actual feasibility of this project for Phase 1 based on the opinion by some that OKC is not deserving of the recently announced Legends Tower supertall as Phase 2.

I think it is fair to cover both sides, and appreciate data GWalker has been able to find to. Im on his side of the fence obviously, but I also want to be objective and consider all data. But I am not going to get emotional as some, in saying that OKC isn't deserving or shouldn't get a supertall. This is bogus and speaks more of the bias some people have against Oklahoma City (or Oklahoma in general) rather than THEY actually supplying facts/data that OKC couldn't support such a project.

I also think OKC Talk and the national forums are a great place for dialogue. I hope it continues but really hate being denigrated for MY opinion just because some have an ax against OKC. Constructive criticism is one thing but I wish admin might intervene in circumstances when dialog turns into attack.

Thanks again Pete for your explanation and approach, I do agree that the local OKC media does often cheerlead certain projects/folks and it is nice to have a balance, particularly when there may very well be glaring flags that others are ignoring.

[HOT ROD]

OMG, that's because the people behind those projects are reputable developers with deep pockets and a solid track record who, as a bonus, many of us here know personally. How the hell is that even a relevant comparison to some random guy from California who no one had heard of, that constantly exaggerates, said he's going to build the tallest building in america here, apparently has no track record and is working with a guy that people have lambasted here for massively under delivering on several of his developments?

You guys are wild.

so in your logic, in order for a project to be relevant, then the developer needs to be known by you and have deep pockets. Got it.

I still stand by the FACT that those project have not started 'anything' beyond fancy renderings, and despite being significantly smaller than Boardwalk - they have YET to have any traction to indicate they will be built UNLIKE Boardwalk at least having variance applications and approvals of the non-supertall design. ... You'd think if what you're saying is true that Boulevard and Alley's End would have already been built - not years later and "echo", nothing.

[jn1780]

Thats not exactly what PhiAlpha said. And you have to look at every developers whole track record and not just cherry pick certain projects.