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Thread: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

  1. #1

    Default E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    It will be interesting to see what the outcomes of this will be.

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ma/3208778001/

    "WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that the eastern half of Oklahoma can be considered Native American territory, a decision the state previously warned could create "civil, criminal and regulatory turmoil."

    The 5-4 decision was written by Associate Justice Neil Gorsuch and joined by the court's four liberal justices. The justices were considering the issue for the second time after failing to decide a different case last year, when Gorsuch was recused and the court likely deadlocked.

    The case concerned an appeal from Jimcy McGirt, a Native American, who claimed his state rape conviction from 1997 should be overturned because Oklahoma lacked jurisdiction. Congress, his lawyer Ian Gershengorn said, never properly terminated the reservation.

    More:1 in 3 American Indian and Alaska Native women will be raped, but survivors rarely find justice on tribal lands

    During oral arguments in May, the justices reached back to 1907 to determine whether Congress, using imprecise language, failed to disestablish the 1866 boundaries of the reservation.

    If so, virtually half of Oklahoma – home to 1.8 million residents and including Tulsa, where President Donald Trump recently held a controversial campaign rally amid a global pandemic – would remain Native American territory. That means Native Americans are subject to federal, not state, laws.

    "In reaching our conclusion about what the law demands of us today, we do not pretend to foretell the future and we proceed well aware of the potential for cost and conflict around jurisdictional boundaries, especially ones that have gone unappreciated for so long," Gorsuch wrote in Thursday's decision. "But it is unclear why pessimism should rule the day. With the passage of time, Oklahoma and its Tribes have proven they can work successfully together as partners."

    Supreme Court Associate Justice Neil Gorsuch did not participate in the earlier Oklahoma case, presumably because he was involved while serving on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit.
    "The federal government promised the (Muscogee Creek Nation) a reservation in perpetuity," Gorsuch wrote, adding that while Congress has "diminished" the sanctuary over time lawmakers had "never withdrawn the promised reservation."

    "As a result, many of the arguments before us today follow a sadly familiar pattern. Yes, promises were made, but the price of keeping them has become too great, so now we should just cast a blind eye. We reject that thinking."

    The state's solicitor general, Mithun Mansinghani, warned that could require the release of more than 1,700 inmates. That didn't sit well with several justices who feared a chaotic overhaul of long-decided criminal cases.

    "What makes this case hard is that there have been hundreds, hundreds of prosecutions, some very heinous offenses of the state law. On your view, they would all become undone," Associate Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg told Gershengorn.

    "Won't (residents) be surprised to learn that they are living on a reservation and that they are now subject to laws imposed by a body that is not accountable to them in any way?" Associate Justice Samuel Alito asked.

    In the earlier case, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 10th Circuit ruled the state lacked jurisdiction to prosecute a gruesome murder because it happened within 3 million acres belonging to the Muscogee (Creek) Nation. The ruling threatened more than 19 million acres in eastern Oklahoma once inhabited by five Native American tribes.

    Yet many Oklahoma public officials, including Republican Rep. Tom Cole and former Democratic Gov. Brad Henry, urged the justices to rule in favor of the Native American tribes whose sovereignty they said has been good for the state.

    "In one area after another – taxation, gaming, motor vehicle registration, law enforcement, and water rights – the Nations’ sovereignty within their reservations and the state’s recognition of that sovereignty have provided the framework for the negotiation of inter-governmental agreements that benefit all Oklahomans," they said.

    The Trump administration took the state's side, telling the justices that Congress long ago broke up the Creek Nation's lands, abolished its courts and set a timetable for the tribe's dissolution.

    Last year, 10 states from Maine to Texas to Montana warned that the boundaries of tribal lands have jurisdictional consequences there as well. They said a decision in the tribe's favor "would be confusing and costly at best, and disastrous at worst," affecting health and energy policy, environmental regulation, economic development and taxes."

  2. #2

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    OK lawyers. What does this mean? Why wouldn't this now turn ownership of everything in the affected areas to the tribes - like the entire city of Tulsa, for example?

  3. #3

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    From what I understand they boxed it in and related it to the MCA (Major Crimes Act) only, so from what I've read (of course, IANAL) was that the only real consequence is that tribal members will need to be tried in Federal court, not state court now, for crimes committed on these lands.

  4. #4

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    https://mailchi.mp/naja.com/naja-rep...y?e=8939db2a49

    Past convictions of tribal citizens by the State of Oklahoma might be overturned; but the issue of when a new Supreme Court decision affects past criminal convictions is itself very complicated, so the effect on past convictions is uncertain. Moreover, a ruling that the Muscogee (Creek) Nation reservation remains intact will not grant criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians. The Supreme Court case Oliphant v. Suquamish still limits tribal criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians who commit crimes in Indian Country. Federal law also still prevents tribes from exercising civil or regulatory jurisdiction over non-Indians in most circumstances. A ruling in this case will not change land ownership in Eastern Oklahoma.

  5. #5

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    OK lawyers. What does this mean? Why wouldn't this now turn ownership of everything in the affected areas to the tribes - like the entire city of Tulsa, for example?
    nope but it will make it very very easy to open casinos any where in eastern oklahoma including down town tulsa

  6. #6

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    http://www.oag.ok.gov/state-muscogee...in-mcgirt-case

    OKLAHOMA CITY – The State of Oklahoma, Muscogee (Creek), Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Seminole Nations released this joint statement today following the U.S. Supreme Court ruling in the McGirt v. Oklahoma case.

    The State, the Muscogee (Creek), Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Seminole Nations have made substantial progress toward an agreement to present to Congress and the U.S. Department of Justice addressing and resolving any significant jurisdictional issues raised by the U.S. Supreme Court’s decision in McGirt v. Oklahoma.

    The Nations and the State are committed to ensuring that Jimcy McGirt, Patrick Murphy, and all other offenders face justice for the crimes for which they are accused. We have a shared commitment to maintaining public safety and long-term economic prosperity for the Nations and Oklahoma.

    The Nations and the State are committed to implementing a framework of shared jurisdiction that will preserve sovereign interests and rights to self-government while affirming jurisdictional understandings, procedures, laws, and regulations that support public safety, our economy, and private property rights. We will continue our work, confident that we can accomplish more together than any of us could alone.

  7. #7

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    OK lawyers. What does this mean? Why wouldn't this now turn ownership of everything in the affected areas to the tribes - like the entire city of Tulsa, for example?
    The Dawes Act pretty well handles individual surface and mineral ownership/rights. It might get more interesting when it comes to Federal or State lands or water rights (Sardis lake comes to mind) but that's just conjecture on my part.

  8. Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    From what I understand they boxed it in and related it to the MCA (Major Crimes Act) only, so from what I've read (of course, IANAL) was that the only real consequence is that tribal members will need to be tried in Federal court, not state court now, for crimes committed on these lands.
    Does anyone know of any mechanism where the federal government would just accept the rulings of the state courts for past offenses and then things will be decided in federal court going forward?

  9. #9

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    This ruling tell Congress it needs to make a decision what is native territory quickly.



    Also, I find it interesting that the article has this quote even though it had nothing to do with the Supreme Court ruling. He is living rent free in their heads.

    “If so, virtually half of Oklahoma – home to 1.8 million residents and including Tulsa, where President Donald Trump recently held a controversial campaign rally amid a global pandemic“

  10. #10

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    nope but it will make it very very easy to open casinos any where in eastern oklahoma including down town tulsa
    The Creeks had already proposed doing this. Not sure what its current status is though.

    https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/loca...f5ce1f3a8.html

  11. #11

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Rebecca Nagle (Cherokee) out of Tahlequah did an incredible podcast on this case that every Oklahoman should listen to: https://crooked.com/podcast-series/this-land/

    It's kind of disorienting to see the Supreme Court put in writing that the U.S. unconstitutionally violated treaties with sovereign nations, but I'm really happy for Indigenous citizens of the nations to win this case.

  12. #12

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Just a few clarification points. stolen from twitter

    Two points that all ntvs should keep in mind today:
    (1) this opinion and case is about Muscogee Creek Nation, their treaty, and their lands and
    (2) this opinion does not “return” lands - it is all about acknowledging existing jurisdiction.


    Here is a link to the official creek nation boundaries

    http://mcngis.com/images/stories/map...2_8.5X11rd.pdf

  13. #13
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    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    The ruling will also apply to The Seminole, Cherokee, Choctaw and Chickasaw, not just the Creek Nation. The exact same mechanisms and laws were used (or in this case improperly used) to disestablish the reservations for all five tribes.

  14. #14

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    It's pretty incredible for the U.S. Supreme Court to finally admit that the U.S. policy of just breaking treaties with sovereign Indigenous nations doesn't just make it legal or constitutional. I mean, we all knew the land was stolen (multiple times over), but there's a lot to digest actually seeing it in writing.

  15. #15

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    https://t.co/hVq97zjcWh?amp=1

    Worth a read. Gorsuch did a fantastic job in his opinion.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin View Post
    https://t.co/hVq97zjcWh?amp=1

    Worth a read. Gorsuch did a fantastic job in his opinion.
    A long read, but worth the effort. Would have never thought Gorsuch would have written such an affirmation of Native Indian treaties. Wow.

  17. #17

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Mott View Post
    A long read, but worth the effort. Would have never thought Gorsuch would have written such an affirmation of Native Indian treaties. Wow.
    What’s even wilder is that Merrick Garland has, at times, taken the approach we saw in Today’s Dissent.

    Just further proof that the men and women on the federal bench do a lot more than sit around eating fantail shrimp in their robes.

    These folks actually like to reach the right result, based on the language found in the Text.

    It is refreshing.

  18. #18
    HangryHippo Guest

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by dankrutka View Post
    Rebecca Nagle (Cherokee) out of Tahlequah did an incredible podcast on this case that every Oklahoman should listen to: https://crooked.com/podcast-series/this-land/

    It's kind of disorienting to see the Supreme Court put in writing that the U.S. unconstitutionally violated treaties with sovereign nations, but I'm really happy for Indigenous citizens of the nations to win this case.
    Some of the information is very interesting, but Nagle is a little much in parts.

  19. #19

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Could someone point me to a good map that reflects the tribal lands located within Oklahoma and their boundaries? I have a feeling as time goes on, it will be helpful to know which counties and cities/towns are tribal and those that are not. Thanks.

  20. #20

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Could someone point me to a good map that reflects the tribal lands located within Oklahoma and their boundaries? I have a feeling as time goes on, it will be helpful to know which counties and cities/towns are tribal and those that are not. Thanks.
    Here's a PDF: https://www.ok.gov/health2/documents...isdictions.pdf

  21. #21
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    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by KayneMo View Post
    McGirt only impacts the Five Tribes.

  22. #22

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    McGirt only impacts the Five Tribes.
    this is correct .. .just the Musogee creek Cherokee, Choctaw, Seminole , and Chickasaw ..... from that map

  23. #23

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Noticed recently that Google Maps now has the outlines of the Cherokee, Muscogee, Seminole, Choctaw, and Chickasaw Nations within Oklahoma's borders. Don't believe they were there before.

  24. #24

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Just wondering why this effects the 5 tribes but not other tribes in both eastern and western Oklahoma?

  25. #25

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by oklip955 View Post
    Just wondering why this effects the 5 tribes but not other tribes in both eastern and western Oklahoma?
    read McGirt

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