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Thread: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

  1. #76

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I agree with Midtowner and Boulder sooner which is rare, but whatever. It really should be more political than anything. But at the end of the day, the Indians deserve their land. They just should not have control over the law. How tf are you going to enforce the law over land you can’t govern? That doesn’t make sense.
    It's not really as simple as the Indians "deserve their land." The vast majority of that land was bargained away and sold decades ago and no one is even talking about reversing those sales. This is about who receives the ad valorem taxes from those lands, this is about mineral and water rights from the land. There are cases suggesting that even where a reservation was disestablished, if Congress did not specifically remove the mineral rights, then the tribe retains those. There are cases regarding water which cut the other way--the Winters case, for example, completely undercuts the tribal claims to water rights in the well-watered eastern part of the state as it held there's an implicit grant of sufficient water rights to irrigate the irrigable land within the tribal boundaries (as it was implied [again, don't you love how they get all of this stuff through implicit language, but can't lose stuff except by explicit language?] that the purpose of reservations was to allow tribes to adopt an agrarian lifestyle)--so in Winters, the tribes wouldn't be granted any more water by implication than that which is necessary to irrigate the irrigable parts of the land--and in Eastern Oklahoma, plenty of water falls from the sky, and that for sure wouldn't grant tribal governments the rights to ALL of the water as some of their litigation has claimed.

    Until Castro-Huerta, we had a taste of what some of these governments want to argue is their right, and it was 100% a case of the dog catching the car. It was a complete mess. It would be the same with environmental regulation, and the Oklahoma DEQ and the Water Resources Board have more expertise and resources than all of the tribal governments combined, despite the broad negative brush some would try and paint with. Tribal governments would arguably still have to comply with EPA mandates, and they don't have the resources in place to do that.

    And then what happens when a company needs to build a pipeline across the state? Should they just build in Kansas, Arkansas and Texas because they don't want to deal with the ever changing landscape of up to 30 different sovereigns all seeking their own pound of flesh?

    That it isn't a very workable situation is a very real and very solid argument--and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the current SCOTUS is going to get ahold of some of these cases and restore order to this situation.

  2. #77
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    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    It's not really as simple as the Indians "deserve their land." The vast majority of that land was bargained away and sold decades ago and no one is even talking about reversing those sales. This is about who receives the ad valorem taxes from those lands, this is about mineral and water rights from the land. There are cases suggesting that even where a reservation was disestablished, if Congress did not specifically remove the mineral rights, then the tribe retains those. There are cases regarding water which cut the other way--the Winters case, for example, completely undercuts the tribal claims to water rights in the well-watered eastern part of the state as it held there's an implicit grant of sufficient water rights to irrigate the irrigable land within the tribal boundaries (as it was implied [again, don't you love how they get all of this stuff through implicit language, but can't lose stuff except by explicit language?] that the purpose of reservations was to allow tribes to adopt an agrarian lifestyle)--so in Winters, the tribes wouldn't be granted any more water by implication than that which is necessary to irrigate the irrigable parts of the land--and in Eastern Oklahoma, plenty of water falls from the sky, and that for sure wouldn't grant tribal governments the rights to ALL of the water as some of their litigation has claimed.

    Until Castro-Huerta, we had a taste of what some of these governments want to argue is their right, and it was 100% a case of the dog catching the car. It was a complete mess. It would be the same with environmental regulation, and the Oklahoma DEQ and the Water Resources Board have more expertise and resources than all of the tribal governments combined, despite the broad negative brush some would try and paint with. Tribal governments would arguably still have to comply with EPA mandates, and they don't have the resources in place to do that.

    And then what happens when a company needs to build a pipeline across the state? Should they just build in Kansas, Arkansas and Texas because they don't want to deal with the ever changing landscape of up to 30 different sovereigns all seeking their own pound of flesh?

    That it isn't a very workable situation is a very real and very solid argument--and I'll bet dollars to donuts that the current SCOTUS is going to get ahold of some of these cases and restore order to this situation.
    With this one sentence, you show that you do not have even a basic understanding of the situation "Tribal governments would arguably still have to comply with EPA mandates".

  3. #78

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    With this one sentence, you show that you do not have even a basic understanding of the situation "Tribal governments would arguably still have to comply with EPA mandates".
    Cry about it more.

    You pick one thing out of all of the above and seem to blow by the entire point.

    The point is that there could be 30 different jurisdictions to comply with for anyone wanting to do business in this State and it's going to cost billions of dollars and jobs potentially.

  4. #79

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    ^^^ +10000

  5. #80
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    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Cry about it more.

    You pick one thing out of all of the above and seem to blow by the entire point.

    The point is that there could be 30 different jurisdictions to comply with for anyone wanting to do business in this State and it's going to cost billions of dollars and jobs potentially.


    It is a very important point. The tribes absolutely 100% have to adhere to federal laws. There is no argument. The "patchwork of laws" you keep complaining about is where tribal law doesn't match STATE law. Federal law applies. Always.

    Additionally, these rulings only apply to the five tribes, four of which have massive regions larger than entire states. It is not a situation where you pass from one tribal government to another every few miles. You overstate the complexity by a lot. And isn't complexity in the law the whole point of most lawyers?

  6. #81

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    The patchwork of laws is requiring a tens of millions of dollar wind produciton plant on Osage land to be dismantled as we speak and will cost the state untold billions in investment because no one is going to want to invest in the eastern part of the state anymore when there are 49 other states with much less complicated sovereignty questions.

  7. #82

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The patchwork of laws is requiring a tens of millions of dollar wind produciton plant on Osage land to be dismantled as we speak and will cost the state untold billions in investment because no one is going to want to invest in the eastern part of the state anymore when there are 49 other states with much less complicated sovereignty questions.
    Enel didn’t get the correct permits before starting construction in Osage County. That doesn’t have anything to do with McGirt. Tribal Sovereignty doesn’t have any effect on real estate/industrial projects.

  8. #83

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by BG918 View Post
    Enel didn’t get the correct permits before starting construction in Osage County. That doesn’t have anything to do with McGirt. Tribal Sovereignty doesn’t have any effect on real estate/industrial projects.
    I didn't say it did have anything to do with McGirt.

    But....

    "for both conversion and trespass. Further, Judge Choe-Groves ordered the Defendants to remove the wind farm from the Osage Mineral Estate and return it to its pre-trespass condition on or before December 1, 2025.

    “This case demonstrates our commitment to preserving and defending tribal sovereignty,” said U.S. Attorney Clint Johnson. “As Judge Choe-Groves emphasized, injury to the Osage sovereignty cannot be condoned or suffered. The Defendants disregarded cease-and-desist instructions with willful and wrongful intent.”

    --quoting the press release on the U.S. Attorney's website for the Northern District of OK... So they seem to think there are sovereignty issues here.

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndok/pr...ars-litigation

  9. #84
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    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I didn't say it did have anything to do with McGirt.

    But....

    "for both conversion and trespass. Further, Judge Choe-Groves ordered the Defendants to remove the wind farm from the Osage Mineral Estate and return it to its pre-trespass condition on or before December 1, 2025.

    “This case demonstrates our commitment to preserving and defending tribal sovereignty,” said U.S. Attorney Clint Johnson. “As Judge Choe-Groves emphasized, injury to the Osage sovereignty cannot be condoned or suffered. The Defendants disregarded cease-and-desist instructions with willful and wrongful intent.”

    --quoting the press release on the U.S. Attorney's website for the Northern District of OK... So they seem to think there are sovereignty issues here.

    https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndok/pr...ars-litigation
    So, if they have authority, then companies and people need to respect that and follow the rules. As i understand it, that wasn't done. The Osage have a long history of people ignoring their rights in order to profit from their natural resources. It should have a chilling effect on rule breakers and a stimulus for those wanting to do it right. Strong defense of the laws should protect honest investors and encourage more.

  10. #85

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    So, if they have authority, then companies and people need to respect that and follow the rules. As i understand it, that wasn't done. The Osage have a long history of people ignoring their rights in order to profit from their natural resources. It should have a chilling effect on rule breakers and a stimulus for those wanting to do it right. Strong defense of the laws should protect honest investors and encourage more.
    I wouldn't call a win in a District Court case or even at the 10th Circuit the final word on this. To be clear, there are no rules--just novel legal theories at this point. The Osage have won this round, that doesn't mean they'll keep winning or that Congress won't act.

    More than likely, what happens here will be that Oklahoma, or at least the Eastern part of it is going to miss out on lots of economic opportunities because of this history of companies believing they have a clear title to do what they want and finding out otherwise in district court.

  11. #86

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I wouldn't call a win in a District Court case or even at the 10th Circuit the final word on this. To be clear, there are no rules--just novel legal theories at this point. The Osage have won this round, that doesn't mean they'll keep winning or that Congress won't act.

    More than likely, what happens here will be that Oklahoma, or at least the Eastern part of it is going to miss out on lots of economic opportunities because of this history of companies believing they have a clear title to do what they want and finding out otherwise in district court.
    This all sounds so familiar to GM-OKC being told one thing and then finding out later that what they were told initially was not what the law was. Diligence appears to be lacking.

  12. #87

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    This all sounds so familiar to GM-OKC being told one thing and then finding out later that what they were told initially was not what the law was. Diligence appears to be lacking.
    Similar in lots of ways, yes. GM was given assurances by the OIA, basically your local billinoaires' club (well just millionaires back then) that they could guarantee that GM could come here and never have to pay property tax. GM built here and the Mid Del schools sued, represented by a friend of my family, Lana Tyree, alleging the OIA never had the power to make those assurances. And yes, my family was very closely involved in that whole transaction--I would say on the side of the good guys. Unfortunately, there were unforseen consequences--that may have been the last time a major company relocated to Oklahoma believing our inducement packages were built on solid ground.

    Again, like with these energy companies, I'm not even sure it was a lack of due diligence on their part. They had no idea who the OIA except that they appeared to speak for the state. And the worst thing you could accuse the wind company of doing is assuming that building a turbine in Oklahoma is pretty much the same as building one in Arkansas.

  13. #88

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    I recall a story my dad told me regarding telegraph lines and a tribe in the 1800s. Something like the telegraph company ran lines on tribal land (maybe Cherokee), and the tribe sent notice that the telegraph would have to pay for access. Telegraph ignored them. Tribal police cut down the telegraph poles and lines. Telegraph paid the tribe.

  14. #89

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Does anyone know what kind of impact this could have on things?

    https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...k/77852082007/

  15. #90

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Zuplar View Post
    Does anyone know what kind of impact this could have on things?

    https://www.oklahoman.com/story/news...k/77852082007/
    https://www.doi.gov/sites/default/fi...erokee-res.pdf

    Keetoowah has dual /jurisiction with the Cherokee .. for 7,000 sq miles in NE oklahoma

    In a written statement, Cherokee Nation Principal Chief Chuck Hoskin Jr. called the opinion “offensive to the Cherokee people.” Along with calling on the incoming Trump administration to withdraw the opinion, Hoskin said the tribe also would be reaching out to Oklahoma’s congressional delegation to block implementation of the opinion.

    “Tribes and lawmakers alike should be deeply alarmed by a federal lawyer rewriting generations of historical and legal precedent with a stroke of his pen,” Hoskin said. “We plan to ask the courts to correct this wrong interpretation and to follow the well-established historic and legal precedent.”

  16. #91

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    That seems like a big change.

  17. #92

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    It seems like a pretty specific dispute.

    There seems to be a lot of factual context here that is missing from the article, so I don't have much of an opinion on it except that I do find it remarkable that the Cherokee Tribe would which fights and protects its sovereignty would deny the very existence and rights of a smaller band of their people who are apparently the successors in interest to a small sliver of the lands claimed by the Cherokees.

    It smacks of hypocrisy all the way round on their part, of course, to be fair, I'm not sure what position the Cherokees took on McGirt and progeny... but maybe I'd be enlightened by some context.

  18. #93

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I wouldn't call a win in a District Court case or even at the 10th Circuit the final word on this. To be clear, there are no rules--just novel legal theories at this point. The Osage have won this round, that doesn't mean they'll keep winning or that Congress won't act.

    More than likely, what happens here will be that Oklahoma, or at least the Eastern part of it is going to miss out on lots of economic opportunities because of this history of companies believing they have a clear title to do what they want and finding out otherwise in district court.
    Doubful. The eastern part of the state is where most of the industry will go since that where the infrastructure (MKARNS and Hydroelectric power) is. Muskogee just had a groundbreaking for a $1.2 billion lithium refinery.

    The only problems from McGirt are because the state and other local govs dont want to lose power or money. Otherwise agreements with revenue-sharing to pay for a tribal criminal justice system would be worked out just like the other compacts are.

  19. #94

    Default Re: E. Oklahoma Tribal Land

    Easier said than done. I knew lots of contract lawyers working on McGirt cases in Eastern Oklahoma and it was a mess. Thank goodness the SCOTUS pulled the plug on that experiment.

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