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  1. #26
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    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    ^^^ sorry if I worded that in an unconstructive manner. I just meant I would the state to be more forward thinking than it is. Texas always has a go big or go home mentality.

    Private financed billion stadium.

    Fort Worth stockyards arena knocks our proposed fair grounds one out of the park.

    TxDOT able to widen I-35 through Austin to 14 lanes with a series of tunnels and OkDOT claiming I-35 can’t be expanded more than six lanes and refusing to build mass transit of quality.

    Texas pushing to HSR between Dallas and Houston while we can’t even get conventional train service between the two largest cities in the state. It’s second largest city is virtually void of any connected mass transit other than planes and a couple bus routes.

    The education system in Oklahoma is a joke.
    The state legislature should restore all funding for education it's been cutting for years. Maybe in doing so, tuition costs can at least stabilize and not increase further. As a result, college enrollment figures are declining in Oklahoma. Construction on a mid rise apartment complex planned to be built near OSU was canceled. If we want a more prosperous economy with higher paying jobs, what is needed is more college students not fewer of them. If Republicans want to respond with an income tax as a solution next session, then they are still highly advanced idiots.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I believe the story about Braniff Airways is true.
    Enid also missed out on the new aircraft industry. The bankers there wouldn't loan Cessna money to built a manufacturing plant, but they did in Wichita.

  3. #28

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDollar View Post
    One more thing, which happened after DFW's growth out paced us, but when we screwed GM by promising a property tax exemption and then Mid Del Schools went to court and the court found it invalid, then word went around the country to not move your business into Oklahoma. I recall that happened in late 70's. Did not help Oklahoma's reputation in the business world, which was not very good to start with .
    I may have some insight here. At that time, there was a group of businessmen running the Oklahoma Industry Authority. That group was charged with expanding industry in the State. Mostly, that group engaged in a bunch of self-benefitting deals and one might consider them to be highly corrupt. To this day, the OKC underground connects courthouses and buildings owned by the members of the Oklahoma Industry Authority. Presbyterian Tower was built with taxpayer money and sold to members of this group for a pittance.

    And yes, they promised GM that they would be tax exempt, but they didn't have the authority to make such promises.

    And still, the ghosts of the OIA were able to convince County voters to give the GM property to the USAF even though GM was still on the hook for property tax. All of these things involved low information voters voting against their own interests.

  4. #29

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    Enid also missed out on the new aircraft industry. The bankers there wouldn't loan Cessna money to built a manufacturing plant, but they did in Wichita.
    Sounds like another typical Oklahoma story.

  5. #30

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    The state legislature should restore all funding for education it's been cutting for years. Maybe in doing so, tuition costs can at least stabilize and not increase further. As a result, college enrollment figures are declining in Oklahoma. Construction on a mid rise apartment complex planned to be built near OSU was canceled. If we want a more prosperous economy with higher paying jobs, what is needed is more college students not fewer of them. If Republicans want to respond with an income tax as a solution next session, then they are still highly advanced idiots.
    Education funding has not been cut, its higher than its ever been. Just look at the budget.

    And the legislature only appropriates a portion of education funding. Approximately 45% of public school funding comes from property tax. And other earmarked funds, such as GPT, go directly to education without being appropriated.

    When someone says the legislature has " cut funding " , that's not entirely true. Legislature only appropriates 40% of the total state budget.

    And it would take a large team of auditors a good year or two to sort out all the funding sources.

  6. #31

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    I may have some insight here. At that time, there was a group of businessmen running the Oklahoma Industry Authority. That group was charged with expanding industry in the State. Mostly, that group engaged in a bunch of self-benefitting deals and one might consider them to be highly corrupt. To this day, the OKC underground connects courthouses and buildings owned by the members of the Oklahoma Industry Authority. Presbyterian Tower was built with taxpayer money and sold to members of this group for a pittance.

    And yes, they promised GM that they would be tax exempt, but they didn't have the authority to make such promises.

    And still, the ghosts of the OIA were able to convince County voters to give the GM property to the USAF even though GM was still on the hook for property tax. All of these things involved low information voters voting against their own interests.
    And it took a court of law to determine they did not have that authority.

    The problem was the timing. This challenge in court could not occur when the deal was ANNOUNCED ? OHHHH noooo, lets wait for GM to be totally committed, then spring this on them.

    No, it wasn't the sweet little innocents over in the Mid Del School District that screwed GM, not those people.

  7. #32

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    I really didn't intend for this to turn into yet another bash OKC thread. I just had a question, that's all. To those of you that directly addressed my question, I truly appreciate it. Thank you for the information and insight.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDollar View Post
    Education funding has not been cut, its higher than its ever been. Just look at the budget.

    And the legislature only appropriates a portion of education funding. Approximately 45% of public school funding comes from property tax. And other earmarked funds, such as GPT, go directly to education without being appropriated.

    When someone says the legislature has " cut funding " , that's not entirely true. Legislature only appropriates 40% of the total state budget.

    And it would take a large team of auditors a good year or two to sort out all the funding sources.
    I most had in mind higher education funding. When the state in 2016 cut funding for higher education by nearly 16% that was a cut. Since 2009 Oklahoma cut funding for higher education than most other states. Your only come back, partial at that, is that some of the funding, especially for new buildings, comes from private sources, such as the new McKnight Center at OSU, along with higher tuition.

    I would hope you would agree that declining university enrollment is not a good sign for Oklahoma.

  9. #34

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    There are so many advantages that Dallas has with a sister city like Fort Worth just 31 miles away on I-30 approaching 900,000 residents.

    The Metroplex encompasses more than 7.6 million. There are 8-9 cities in the Dallas-Fort Worth Metroplex with more than 100,000 urban inhabitants--Arlington has an estimated 400,000 along with 4 of those 9 cities with 100,000 or more residents.

    OKC has only 1 city in its metropolitan area (Norman) with 123,000 people & Edmond approaching 100K residents with an estimated 93,000.

    Cities with the size like the DFW area (7.6 million) has a wealth of highly educated residents, resources and a world airport (DFW) & inner city airport (Love Field) with destinations to & from that gives it more advantages than living in a metro like OKC that has roughly 1.4 million.

    Surprised that Dallas didn't obtain the second Amazon Headquarters. Dallas is truly a great American city; yet it isn't on a major waterfront or port to support it location.

  10. #35

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    I most had in mind higher education funding. When the state in 2016 cut funding for higher education by nearly 16% that was a cut. Since 2009 Oklahoma cut funding for higher education than most other states. Your only come back, partial at that, is that some of the funding, especially for new buildings, comes from private sources, such as the new McKnight Center at OSU, along with higher tuition.

    I would hope you would agree that declining university enrollment is not a good sign for Oklahoma.
    Nope, I don't agree, but I'm gonna respect Traxx's thread and let it drop.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDollar View Post
    Education funding has not been cut, its higher than its ever been. Just look at the budget.

    And the legislature only appropriates a portion of education funding. Approximately 45% of public school funding comes from property tax. And other earmarked funds, such as GPT, go directly to education without being appropriated.

    When someone says the legislature has " cut funding " , that's not entirely true. Legislature only appropriates 40% of the total state budget.

    And it would take a large team of auditors a good year or two to sort out all the funding sources.
    From your handle of from Governing magazine from less than 2 years ago:

    "No state has suffered more than Oklahoma when it comes to education funding over the past decade. As it has struggled to balance its budget in the face of declining oil revenue, spending on schools has declined further than anywhere else. Oklahoma now spends $1 billion less on K-12 education than it did a decade ago."

  12. #37
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    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDollar View Post
    Education funding has not been cut, its higher than its ever been. Just look at the budget.
    When adjusted for inflation, next year’s budget remains 10.2 percent ($906 million) below the budget of FY 2009 and 14.9 percent ($1.398 billion) less than the peak year of FY 2007. No wonder I used the word restore, but did come across as outdated about funding cuts. So Oklahoma still has some catching up to do. There are probably more students in 2007 than in 2019.

  13. #38

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    ^^^ careful there, Bunty, you are arguing with facts! LOL

  14. #39

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    If Traxx will forgive, you're talking about appropriations. Evidently, you did not read my first post on this.

    Appropriations.

    And you got you're info from here

    https://okpolicy.org/fy-2020-budget-highlights/

    And these people are going to err to the side of government needing more money, constantly. OPI funded by George Kaiser, FWIW.

    And the baseline year used is 2007 or 2008 is really the year I hear more often. And that was a particularly flush time for state revenues. Oil was over $100 and NG was near $10 per mmbtu. And we had yet to experience the Great Recession of 2009.

    Considering the headwinds faced by the state economy due to the Great Recession, the crash of NG prices at about the same time, and then the crash of oil prices in 2014, and we spending more money than ever before on education............... I would think maybe you should feel lucky and move on down the road to another issue.

    You've seen cold hard financial reality ........... and lived to tell about it. Lotsa folks not neary so fortunate.

    And I'm going to edit this to point out , that OPI is talking total appropriations adjusted for inflation, not just education funding.

    And the total state budget is around 24 billion, the legislature is appropriating about 8 billion, that seems to be lost on some people.

    And you have earmarked funds that are not included in appropriations.

    And you have tuition increases which also are not included in appropriations.

    And you've gotten four increases in the GPT tax that are earmarked and not appropriated.

    And you're not including property tax increases .

    To make statements for political purposes about state funding , is very very simplistic.

  15. #40

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    https://okpolicy.org/another-year-go...uts-education/

    https://okpolicy.org/report-despite-...till-way-down/

    First two results from a simple google search: Oklahoma education funding.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Some people just ignore the damage our lack of funding education does and what our history is. Everyone knows the story of our radical right conservatives on 23rd street having failed to fund education properly and place us at the near bottom in the US. We are reddest of red and share this lack of commitment to education with such advanced states like Mississippi, Alabama and Arkansas.
    Anyone who believes we are in any way properly funding or managing our education responsibilities just has their head in the sand.

  17. #42

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    ^^^^ +1

  18. #43

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    I'm gonna make this real simple ...........

    You can't drive a Cadillac on a Chevrolet economy.

    You live with the revenue generated by your economy. And you get in real trouble, by trying to adjust your tax rates in economic downturns. And doing that also never provides an incentive for govt to find efficiencies . It also gives state money managers a carte blanch to spend, because they know if the economy goes down, they are protected by tax increases.

    If you want more money for your particular area of state government, grow the economy. As our tax rates are pretty much average. Just demanding tax increases without factoring in the underlying economy , is not good policy.

    That's it ..............I'm done.

  19. Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDollar View Post
    I'm gonna make this real simple ...........

    You can't drive a Cadillac on a Chevrolet economy.

    You live with the revenue generated by your economy. And you get in real trouble, by trying to adjust your tax rates in economic downturns. And doing that also never provides an incentive for govt to find efficiencies . It also gives state money managers a carte blanch to spend, because they know if the economy goes down, they are protected by tax increases.

    If you want more money for your particular area of state government, grow the economy. As our tax rates are pretty much average. Just demanding tax increases without factoring in the underlying economy , is not good policy.

    That's it ..............I'm done.
    But if you cut the hell out of your taxes, therefore impacting education funding massively, you should probably do something to raise them back up again, or find some other source of revenue for education funding, it's not just "growing the economy".

    https://www.economist.com/united-sta...-with-oklahoma

    "The roots of the fiasco are not hard to determine. As in Oklahoma’s northern neighbour, Kansas, deep tax cuts have wrecked the state’s finances."

    "Since 2008 general state funds for K-12 education in Oklahoma have been slashed by 28.2%—the biggest cut in the country."

  20. #45

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    But if you cut the hell out of your taxes, therefore impacting education funding massively, you should probably do something to raise them back up again, or find some other source of revenue for education funding, it's not just "growing the economy".

    https://www.economist.com/united-sta...-with-oklahoma

    "The roots of the fiasco are not hard to determine. As in Oklahoma’s northern neighbour, Kansas, deep tax cuts have wrecked the state’s finances."

    "Since 2008 general state funds for K-12 education in Oklahoma have been slashed by 28.2%—the biggest cut in the country."
    If not for the economic downturn, the less than 1% income tax cut would've not been a problem.

    And the idea behind it was good. It was an attempt to move our tax code closer to Texas. State's with low income taxes or no income taxes have great economies, that's not a coincidence.

    But this was not the way to achieve that, the only way it could be done is with a constituitional convention, which will never happen. That opens up pandora's box to everybody who wants to make major changes.

    And there's so much wrong with your article from the Economist, I won't waste my time trying to address all of it. I did not read far at all, till I threw it in the trash.

    lawmakers gave a sweetheart deal to its oilmen, costing $470m in a single year, by slashing the gross production tax on horizontal drilling from 7% to 1%

    The GPT tax incentive was created in 1994, that article makes it sound like it was some gift to the oil industry. 1994 could not have been any more bleak for the oil industry or Oklahoma's economy.

    And even with that incentive, it did nothing for oil production in Oklahoma, which continued to decline. It was not until circa 2012 when horizontal drilling was combined with new hydraulic fracturing techniques, that our production began to increase. We went from 150,000 bbl a day and dropping ( in spite of $125 oil ) to 500,000 bbls a day. ( and everything I'm reading , says that's gonna begin to drop , it may have very well been fools gold )

    Come on, I believe none of the economist numbers ........... its bullchit that was written for effect.

  21. #46

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Here ya go, look what that incentive did for production in the 1990's . A big fat nothing.

    And pay close attention to what happened in 2014 when the oil price crashed and drilling rigs were stacked, you see how fast production dropped ? That's due to the extreme depletion rate from these shale wells. It dropped like a rock and if not for OPEC supporting the price at $50 a bbl, it would've economic disaster .


  22. #47

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDollar View Post
    I'm gonna make this real simple ...........

    You can't drive a Cadillac on a Chevrolet economy.

    You live with the revenue generated by your economy. And you get in real trouble, by trying to adjust your tax rates in economic downturns. And doing that also never provides an incentive for govt to find efficiencies . It also gives state money managers a carte blanch to spend, because they know if the economy goes down, they are protected by tax increases.

    If you want more money for your particular area of state government, grow the economy. As our tax rates are pretty much average. Just demanding tax increases without factoring in the underlying economy , is not good policy.

    That's it ..............I'm done.
    Except Oklahoma’s “Chevrolet” economy has the potential to be a Cadillac economy. The right wingers of the state are stopping that from happening.

  23. Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by RedDollar View Post
    If not for the economic downturn, the less than 1% income tax cut would've not been a problem.

    And the idea behind it was good. It was an attempt to move our tax code closer to Texas. State's with low income taxes or no income taxes have great economies, that's not a coincidence.

    But this was not the way to achieve that, the only way it could be done is with a constituitional convention, which will never happen. That opens up pandora's box to everybody who wants to make major changes.

    And there's so much wrong with your article from the Economist, I won't waste my time trying to address all of it. I did not read far at all, till I threw it in the trash.




    The GPT tax incentive was created in 1994, that article makes it sound like it was some gift to the oil industry. 1994 could not have been any more bleak for the oil industry or Oklahoma's economy.

    And even with that incentive, it did nothing for oil production in Oklahoma, which continued to decline. It was not until circa 2012 when horizontal drilling was combined with new hydraulic fracturing techniques, that our production began to increase. We went from 150,000 bbl a day and dropping ( in spite of $125 oil ) to 500,000 bbls a day. ( and everything I'm reading , says that's gonna begin to drop , it may have very well been fools gold )

    Come on, I believe none of the economist numbers ........... its bullchit that was written for effect.
    Thanks for replying with all the additional info, but I was only posting about your claim that "If you want more money for your particular area of state government, grow the economy." and how much tax cuts and cuts to the education budget over years have put us in last place for that (now we're a bit better, but we still most likely suck in education funding, haven't checked recently) and we can't just "grow the economy" to get out of the huge hole our legislators dug for education. As far as the Economist article, I didn't read all of it, I just needed that one quote, so I didn't sign up for their site to read the entire thing. Since this has been rehashed in other threads and this one isn't about education funding, I'll just leave you with this. Cuts to education funding were massive, ongoing, and will take us years to correct (if we ever do), and it was due to tax cuts and other doings of the legislature, and we can't just "grow the economy" to get "more money for [education's] area of the government".

    This chart is from okpolicy.org, which PluPan references above.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	education cuts.jpg 
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ID:	15671

  24. #49

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Thanks for replying with all the additional info, but I was only posting about your claim that "If you want more money for your particular area of state government, grow the economy." and how much tax cuts and cuts to the education budget over years have put us in last place for that (now we're a bit better, but we still most likely suck in education funding, haven't checked recently) and we can't just "grow the economy" to get out of the huge hole our legislators dug for education. As far as the Economist article, I didn't read all of it, I just needed that one quote, so I didn't sign up for their site to read the entire thing. Since this has been rehashed in other threads and this one isn't about education funding, I'll just leave you with this. Cuts to education funding were massive, ongoing, and will take us years to correct (if we ever do), and it was due to tax cuts and other doings of the legislature, and we can't just "grow the economy" to get "more money for [education's] area of the government".

    This chart is from okpolicy.org, which PluPan references above.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	education cuts.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	153.9 KB 
ID:	15671
    What tax cuts ?

    My memory on the income tax cut, is that it would be a full one percent, implemented annually in 1/4% increments. To my memory, the last two 1/4% were never put in place. That is the only tax cut I know of.

    Property tax is going to differ from school district to district, but I'm paying three times higher property tax than 10 years ago. If the County Assessors are doing their jobs and reassessing property values annually, then that pretty much makes up for any inflation adjustment. Considering that on average across the state, 42% of school funding comes from property tax. And reassessing real estate values, does not take into account millage rate increases we have voted upon ourselves.

    And evidently the Assessors were doing their job, because we put a cap on how much they can increase our valuations in a one year span, something like 4% . We've probably not averaged a 2% inflation rate over the past 10 years, if we've had any inflation at all.

    We are spending more money today on education than we ever have. That's fact. Now the OPI wants to talk about whether appropriations by the legislature, then adjusted for inflation , are less than 10 years ago. But that ignores funding from sources other than appropriations. And the increase in the GPT tax alone, make up for their inflation adjustment.

    What is so hard about this ? I think some of you fellas, need to spend some time educating yourself on state spending.

    IMO, we need to change how we fund schools entirely. This old property tax system was put in place around statehood, because its in the constitution , but highly inefficient. I think schools should be funded mostly at the local level, with very little state funds. But changing that would be as difficult as rewriting the tax code.

    You fellas don't impress me much.

  25. #50

    Default Re: OKC vs Dallas growth

    ^^^ I don’t think anyone here is trying to impress you.

    Once again, here is a wealth of knowledge I pulled in 10 secs from google:

    https://okpolicy.org/the-cost-of-tax-cuts-in-oklahoma/

    https://www.npr.org/2018/02/08/58406...to-raise-taxes

    https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/pol...ut-rich-charts

    https://www.wbur.org/hereandnow/2018...ahoma-tax-cuts

    It is quite simple: and Oklahoma has cut spending on its education. It’s education system is among the most underfunded in the US. Majority of other states are increasing their per pupil and overall education budget. Most other states that are extremely successful and booming have great education systems. Those are facts. Not opinions. I’ve already cited sources for some of those claims and if you are unable or unwilling to fact check the others I’ll be more than happy to do it for you.

    Also, for your idea funding schools mainly through local means, what districts today do this? I think that is a horrible idea and will lead to unfair funding situations in schools located in communities without means. That is especially true in communities that suffer from lack of services and are forced to shop in other communities that have them. Not a good idea, IMO.

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