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  1. #51

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    ^^ I'm not gonna get into some pissing arguments, or on topics of faith (since those have no relevance to me). If we were talking about a typical corporation, say Microsoft, if there were policies put in place by the Executives and the Board, and carried out under the leadership/auspices of the company, that were illegal, then it would be fair to say that Microsoft was the bad actor in that scenario. Doesn't matter how good the employees are.

    What we saw in the Catholic Church was implementation of church policy, from the top down. It was the actions of the church itself which set itself as a bad actor.

    I stand by my comment.

  2. #52

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    It wasn't only children being abused. And, it wasn't only happening 20-50+ years ago, either. Stories from February 2019:

    Pope admits clerical abuse of nuns including sexual slavery

    Sexual Abuse of Nuns: Longstanding Church Scandal Emerges From Shadows

  3. #53

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky View Post
    I thought it was a humorous analogy...
    Nothing about this is funny. Nothing.
    Please spare us the virtue signaling.

    Midtowner, you are so dismissive! And tone deaf.
    You actually sound like the PR. Your thoughts on responsibilities of the Church are so framed around whats best for them, their liability, etc.
    No, this is a thread about a law firm which answers to the Church maybe having second thoughts about releasing the results of an investigation. This is a thread where I explained that it's expected that if the results of the investigation might create liability for the Church, those results may be withheld, or the firm might deliberately avoid putting pen to paper regarding the results.

    Churches are businesses. Even the Catholic Church is a business. They can't save your immortal soul if they can't make payroll.

    If there are current offenders, lets roll out the lynch mob.
    If there is current misconduct, let the victims report it...
    The victims are CHILDREN, Midtowner. We all know most dont report abuse by those in authority until years later, if at all.
    It's time to educate our children better about sexual abuse and boundaries. I'd have no problem if groups like the Abbott House were placed in our schools to educate students about these things.

    You havent been paying attention. You act like this is just all a big nuisance. Your lack of empathy and compassion is astounding.
    I've paid plenty of attention. If there are claims within the statute of limitations, it would seem victims would have until they reach age 30 to come forward in this State. If there are offenders, prosecute them. That's how this is solved. Virtue signaling on the internet doesn't help a lot either, unfortunately.

    Re the nuns being used as sex slaves, again, if there are offenders, prosecute them. Those stories, thank God, seem to be limited to Europe, and considering the average age of the American nun, I would be surprised if that was going on over on this side of the pond.

  4. #54

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by checkthat View Post
    It wasn't only children being abused. And, it wasn't only happening 20-50+ years ago, either. Stories from February 2019:

    Pope admits clerical abuse of nuns including sexual slavery

    Sexual Abuse of Nuns: Longstanding Church Scandal Emerges From Shadows
    And the stories are about Benedict shutting these things down. If the story was that the Pope knew this was going on and didn't act, that'd be a different story.

  5. #55

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    And the stories are about Benedict shutting these things down. If the story was that the Pope knew this was going on and didn't act, that'd be a different story.
    This thread is about yet another Archdiocese having an “independent investigation” and it looks rotten. The Chancellor is named in Jan of 2018, the son is named partner in Jan of 2018. The Archbishop and the Chancellor stand up before their review board a few months later and announce they are giving the contract for this “independent investigation” to that same law firm. This thread has also been about the tribulations inside the Church. You have been antagonistic, seemingly dismissive of all that’s going on, trying to laugh things off, telling parishioners if they don’t like what’s going on to just “go join the Episcopalians.”

    Virtue signaling? If standing up to you and calling you out on your defense of the indefensible — guilty as charged.

  6. #56

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    I think this thread was started to discuss that local church leadership hired a "friendly" legal firm to investigate claims of sexual abuse against them. I believe that is what they did.

    I think that falls into an all too human trap of deciding "I know we are honest and we need honest people we know and trust to be honest to get the facts out. Real facts and honest information. We are honest and we need to make sure that trustworthy people work on this." The church wants to control the investigation without admitting (possibly even to themselves) that they want to do so.

    The leadership of the Catholic Church in Oklahoma could have gone to Oklahoma Attorney General Mike Hunter, Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater, as well as other law enforcement agencies in the state and ask their recommendations. An abundance of caution would have required that the investigating firm not be locally based and operate at arms length. Because the church is only interested in the truth and reporting it accurately.

  7. #57

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky View Post
    This thread is about yet another Archdiocese having an “independent investigation” and it looks rotten. The Chancellor is named in Jan of 2018, the son is named partner in Jan of 2018. The Archbishop and the Chancellor stand up before their review board a few months later and announce they are giving the contract for this “independent investigation” to that same law firm. This thread has also been about the tribulations inside the Church. You have been antagonistic, seemingly dismissive of all that’s going on, trying to laugh things off, telling parishioners if they don’t like what’s going on to just “go join the Episcopalians.”
    It looks rotten, but then again, it's also completely predictable.

    Virtue signaling? If standing up to you and calling you out on your defense of the indefensible — guilty as charged.
    You may want to review what's been said. I've defended no one. I've simply expressed that none of this should surprise anyone. Churches have to be businesses first, so every decision they make is about filling the pews. It shouldn't surprise anyone that the Church is doing this. Engaging in flailing histrionics on the internet isn't going to change anything.

    Literally the thing which would stop this sort of behavior is the action I suggest. If people started leaving the Church in droves, only that would be a lever which might trigger actual change. Go be an Episcopal--it's an actual solution. And bonus--their baptism and other sacraments are accepted by the Catholic Church, so you get to keep your secret decoder ring and everything. Also bonus--their clergy can marry, be gay, and be female--and in any combination of those things imaginable.

  8. #58

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    I think this thread was started to discuss that local church leadership hired a "friendly" legal firm to investigate claims of sexual abuse against them. I believe that is what they did.

    I think that falls into an all too human trap of deciding "I know we are honest and we need honest people we know and trust to be honest to get the facts out. Real facts and honest information. We are honest and we need to make sure that trustworthy people work on this." The church wants to control the investigation without admitting (possibly even to themselves) that they want to do so.

    The leadership of the Catholic Church in Oklahoma could have gone to Oklahoma Attorney General Mike Hunter, Oklahoma County District Attorney David Prater, as well as other law enforcement agencies in the state and ask their recommendations. An abundance of caution would have required that the investigating firm not be locally based and operate at arms length. Because the church is only interested in the truth and reporting it accurately.
    And it stands to reason that what they wanted was the appearance of truth, not the existence of truth. Not a surprising development as it turns out. That's basically the definition of organized religion, right?

  9. #59
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    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    No thank you. Reparations are just hand outs. Plain and simple. Paying out to say "hey we're sorry here you go take some money" doesn't solve the problem and arguably will make it worse. Not to mention there are many more pressing needs to spend our tax money on, the right way is to move on and make amends through better treatment and inclusive policies.
    So, if someone does something wrong that gets you fired and keeps you from earning money, and you sue them successfully, the award you get is just a handout?

  10. #60

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    So, if someone does something wrong that gets you fired and keeps you from earning money, and you sue them successfully, the award you get is just a handout?
    I don't agree those two things are comparable.

  11. #61
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    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I don't agree those two things are comparable.
    Of course you dont. But reparations are payments for past wrongs. Judgements are too.

  12. #62

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Of course you dont. But reparations are payments for past wrongs. Judgements are too.
    I understand what the concept of reparations are. If we are to pay reparations for past wrongs then you better get out your checkbook because atrocities extend well beyond African Americans and Native Indians. BTW, native Indians get a lot of assistance from the government already. My sister is barely like a quarter and she gets free college and several other benefits.

  13. #63
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    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I understand what the concept of reparations are. If we are to pay reparations for past wrongs then you better get out your checkbook because atrocities extend well beyond African Americans and Native Indians. BTW, native Indians get a lot of assistance from the government already. My sister is barely like a quarter and she gets free college and several other benefits.
    Look... Im not really promoting reparations, but my point is that the Catholic membership is paying huge reparations and will pay more to root out bad actors who taint the name of the church while destroying lives they swore to God to enrich through faith. It is the utmost betrayal and the members know that. It is a betrayal to the people most directly affected as victims, but also of the faith and of the membership. So statements of blanket condemnations of the faith are misplaced. The faith is a victim also.

  14. #64

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I understand what the concept of reparations are. If we are to pay reparations for past wrongs then you better get out your checkbook because atrocities extend well beyond African Americans and Native Indians. BTW, native Indians get a lot of assistance from the government already. My sister is barely like a quarter and she gets free college and several other benefits.
    This is simply not true. My wife is nearly full blood native. No free college. My daughter just graduated from college, I can tell you it was far from free. Some tribes offer limited assistance usually based on need. My kids got nothing.

    The one real Federal benefit enrolled natives get is access to Indian Health Services, which no native with access to any other kind of health insurance would ever use.

  15. #65

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    ^^^^ HA! Okay. It is true and I could care less if some poster on a talk forum claims otherwise.

  16. #66

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    ^^^^ HA! Okay. It is true and I could care less if some poster on a talk forum claims otherwise.
    Sure, just listen to me.

    Question: “Do Indians have a free ride to college?”
    Excerpt: “Although only a small percentage of Indians obtain significant financial help with college, I believe it would be perfectly fair if all Indians did get a free ride. As a matter of not only historical experience but also direct government policy, many Indian people have been made to suffer. They suffered not just in the nineteenth century during the height of violence; they suffer today.”

    Among the cumbersome misconceptions of contemporary Native life, the idea of free college education for Native Americans is probably one of the greatest. Certainly, I agree with the excerpt above. “…it would be perfectly fair if all Indians did get a free ride.” Unfortunately, that isn’t the case.

    With little effort one can easily dismiss this misconception by discovering some of the scholarships and grants open to Native applicants. If Indians were entitled to a free ride, then why would Native American and tribal scholarships exist?

    There is no free ride. Like non-Native students, American Indians have to compete with their peers to gain access to limited scholarship and grant funding. Furthermore, Native students have to meet unique criteria for each specific American Indian scholarship, beyond the usual essays, letter of recommendations, SAT scores, and financial needs assessments. These unique criteria include providing a Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood and, for many Native scholarships, enrollment in a specific tribe.

    If anything, Native American students have to work harder than non-Native students to access scholarships and a college education. Combined with the underfunding of treaties for education and healthcare, lack of jobs, lack of access, and lack of policies to support economic progress and sustainability, Native students not only find it harder to fund higher education but are also placed at a severe disadvantage compared to their non-Native counterparts.

    Incidentally, the “free ride” misconception continues to haunt Native students even after successfully funding their education. Jason Packineau of Harvard Native provided the following example:

    When I worked at the University of New Mexico’s Health Sciences Center supporting Native medical, pharmacy, nursing students, they heard many snide remarks about their supposed “free” education, sometimes to their face.


    Considering the struggle Native that students face just getting into the classroom, this kind of unfounded harassment has the potential to further stress Native students who may be dealing with the pressures of being off the reservation for the first time, the first in their family to attend college, or day-to-day social prejudice unrelated to scholarships. On a positive note, I hope this mentality displayed by non-Natives will only serve to inspire the success of Native students.

    On the whole, misconceptions and stereotypes about Native Americans will probably never fade, but it takes a strong society to acknowledge the humanity, experience, and struggles of others. It only takes common sense. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. After all, “There’s no such thing as a free lunch.” Even if Native Americans were entitled to free post-secondary education, consider the historical costs already paid through the generations and continuing on to this day.
    http://blog.nativepartnership.org/yo...de-to-college/

  17. #67

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Considering that there are so many different sovereign native nations, any claim that tries to make a sweeping generalization is destined to be pretty dang wrong.

  18. #68

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Sure, just listen to me.

    Question: “Do Indians have a free ride to college?”


    http://blog.nativepartnership.org/yo...de-to-college/
    I don’t know what tribe you are referring to and I never used the term “free ride” in this instance. I stated reparations are handouts and they are. Regarding the free college there is no way for me to provide evidence without divulging personal information about my family and me and I won’t do that. I know what I know and that’s that. 99% of my post if you want evidence if I state a fact I will give it less I make it clear it is my opinion or suspicion. This time I just can’t. This is my last post on this subject.

  19. #69

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa


  20. #70

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Law firm releases 77-page Oklahoma City Archdiocese clergy abuse report

    https://kfor.com/2019/10/03/law-firm...-abuse-report/

  21. #71

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    Law firm releases 77-page Oklahoma City Archdiocese clergy abuse report

    https://kfor.com/2019/10/03/law-firm...-abuse-report/
    Conflict of interest.
    They even had to address it (denying it, of course). If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck — it’s a duck. This law firm has cozy ties to the Archdiocese, they took something important and handed it to their own outside counsel — McAfee and Taft. Christopher Scaperlanda had even represented Archbishop Coakley over that black mass a few years back. Now he is a partner and his dad is named Chancellor (top legal guy) at the Archdiocese. That looks HORRIBLE. Appearances matter. In fact, this situation with the Archdiocese and McAfee and Taft, is a duck.

    Remember, the monies received by McAfee and Taft from the Archdiocese (Michael Scaperlanda) went partially to his son who is a partner (Christopher Scaperlanda). There’s so much wrong with this, at so many levels. Treating us like we are -stupid- and acting outraged anyone could think they are engaged in a huge conflict of interest really angers me. They KNOW this is wrong. But, what’s new? Business as usual with the Church hierarchy. Rotten to the core, apparently from Rome to Australia to America and all points in between. From Boston To NYC to Chicago to San Diego to our own Archdiocese out on Northwest Expressway. It’s a duck.

  22. #72
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    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky View Post
    Conflict of interest.
    They even had to address it (denying it, of course). If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck — it’s a duck. This law firm has cozy ties to the Archdiocese, they took something important and handed it to their own outside counsel — McAfee and Taft. Christopher Scaperlanda had even represented Archbishop Coakley over that black mass a few years back. Now he is a partner and his dad is named Chancellor (top legal guy) at the Archdiocese. That looks HORRIBLE. Appearances matter. In fact, this situation with the Archdiocese and McAfee and Taft, is a duck.

    Remember, the monies received by McAfee and Taft from the Archdiocese (Michael Scaperlanda) went partially to his son who is a partner (Christopher Scaperlanda). There’s so much wrong with this, at so many levels. Treating us like we are -stupid- and acting outraged anyone could think they are engaged in a huge conflict of interest really angers me. They KNOW this is wrong. But, what’s new? Business as usual with the Church hierarchy. Rotten to the core, apparently from Rome to Australia to America and all points in between. From Boston To NYC to Chicago to San Diego to our own Archdiocese out on Northwest Expressway. It’s a duck.
    Do you have some information indicating the work of M&T was poorly done, incomplete, or abridged at the hand of the church? Or are you just railing at the church no matter what?

  23. #73

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Virtue signaling.

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