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  1. #26

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Exactly. And it's not just having bad actors, but that the church as a whole spent decades and millions protecting and covering up for these bad actors. If I was Catholic that fact that money I had donated to the church likely contributed to covering for sex abusers would be enough for me to completely walk away.
    I have wondered the same. I assume its well over a billion that the church has paid out to not only settle claims, but keep pedophile priests out of prison. Not something I would want to contribute money to.

  2. #27
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    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Exactly. And it's not just having bad actors, but that the church as a whole spent decades and millions protecting and covering up for these bad actors. If I was Catholic that fact that money I had donated to the church likely contributed to covering for sex abusers would be enough for me to completely walk away.
    Thereís a difference between the church and bad actors in the church. Thatís like saying we should shut down the Republican Party and/or US government because of Nixon, Trump, and all their co-conspirators.

  3. #28

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    There’s a difference between the church and bad actors in the church. That’s like saying we should shut down the Republican Party and/or US government because of Nixon, Trump, and all their co-conspirators.
    In this case the church itself is the bad actor.

  4. #29

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    There’s a difference between the church and bad actors in the church. That’s like saying we should shut down the Republican Party and/or US government because of Nixon, Trump, and all their co-conspirators.
    Rover, I respect your viewpoint. However, I think you keep talking about something in almost every one of your posts that's not the issue. I know of nobody who seriously thinks the Church should be shut down. I know somebody way upthread said something along those lines, but you respond to every post by acting like there's some big push to shut it down.. Why? Nobody (except way upthread when Ian Clark said something like that and was criticized for it) has suggested anything of the sort.

    I agree with Jerry on this. When there is evidence linking the Vatican to cover-ups of child rape and molestation, Popes that chose to protect Cardinals, Bishops, on and on - at that point, it IS the Church as the bad actor. Literally, if you look at it theologically from a Catholic viewpoint. The Church is based on a hierarchy that people trust to do what's right. This same hierarchy has failed time and time again on this issue. In this case locally, it's just more of the same! Nothing to see here? If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, no matter how it is spun - it's a duck.

  5. #30

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    And look, I'm aware that pedophiles go where the children are, and you can't always blame the organization, but when the organization becomes complicit, then that changes. I'm one of the biggest supporters of the BSA I know; Lifelong scouter, Eagle Scout, Adult Leader, etc. Both of my sons were in scouting, as was my father and my grandfather. So I'm always a defender of them even when I've disagreed with some of their policies (although they've started to evolve them). HOWEVER, there's been information coming out that the BSA has also participated in covering up and in some cases protecting pedophiles. There have been reports of people who have (with the active knowledge of the BSA) been known abusers and allowed to continue their involvement with scouts. At the least, they seem to have prioritized image over the victims, keeping much of the information hidden about how bad and pervasive the abuse has been within scouting. At this point to me, the BSA has become a bad actor, and I know I've cut any of my personal giving to scouts until I feel like this is resolved. First 3 words of the scout oath... "On My Honor".

    All this being said, I don't think the BSA's behavior has come close to the active cover-ups and in some cases, enabling of child sexual abuse that's come out of the Catholic church.

  6. #31

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    The thing about the Catholic Church and the current situation is that some are wanting to hold an organization responsible today for things which occurred quite some time ago by now. The same people are not in charge. There are new rules of the road to protect the congregation from pedophiles. This is as if your the President of the Delta house, and Dean Wormer wants to kick you off campus because the Deltas have been on double secret probation because 20 years ago, some of your brothers may have ruined a perfectly good homecoming parade. This is why in most situations, we have statutes of limitations. Sometimes justice delayed can only mean justice denied. And this is why I can understand not going public despite promises to the contrary. Don't like it? Go sign up with the Episcopals. They're basically Catholics with lady priests.

  7. #32

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The thing about the Catholic Church and the current situation is that some are wanting to hold an organization responsible today for things which occurred quite some time ago by now. The same people are not in charge. There are new rules of the road to protect the congregation from pedophiles. This is as if your the President of the Delta house, and Dean Wormer wants to kick you off campus because the Deltas have been on double secret probation because 20 years ago, some of your brothers may have ruined a perfectly good homecoming parade. This is why in most situations, we have statutes of limitations. Sometimes justice delayed can only mean justice denied. And this is why I can understand not going public despite promises to the contrary. Don't like it? Go sign up with the Episcopals. They're basically Catholics with lady priests.
    What rules? Are there similar rules in place to protect nuns from sexual abuse?

    If the Deltas were raping women and children, they would deserve punishment, too. Oklahoma needs a version of this:

    N.Y. suspended its statute of limitations on child sex abuse. A flood of claims emerged

  8. #33

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The thing about the Catholic Church and the current situation is that some are wanting to hold an organization responsible today for things which occurred quite some time ago by now. The same people are not in charge. There are new rules of the road to protect the congregation from pedophiles. This is as if your the President of the Delta house, and Dean Wormer wants to kick you off campus because the Deltas have been on double secret probation because 20 years ago, some of your brothers may have ruined a perfectly good homecoming parade. This is why in most situations, we have statutes of limitations. Sometimes justice delayed can only mean justice denied. And this is why I can understand not going public despite promises to the contrary. Don't like it? Go sign up with the Episcopals. They're basically Catholics with lady priests.
    Except no one (reasonable) here is calling for them to be punished. Just explaining why they don't get the benefit of the doubt.

    That being said, child sexual abuse should have no statute of limitations.

  9. #34

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The thing about the Catholic Church and the current situation is that some are wanting to hold an organization responsible today for things which occurred quite some time ago by now. The same people are not in charge. There are new rules of the road to protect the congregation from pedophiles. This is as if your the President of the Delta house, and Dean Wormer wants to kick you off campus because the Deltas have been on double secret probation because 20 years ago, some of your brothers may have ruined a perfectly good homecoming parade. This is why in most situations, we have statutes of limitations. Sometimes justice delayed can only mean justice denied. And this is why I can understand not going public despite promises to the contrary. Don't like it? Go sign up with the Episcopals. They're basically Catholics with lady priests.
    So, remove yourself from the situation and all is good. Is that what you seem to be saying? And, Midtowner, why do you think new “rules in place” are any more effective than prior “rules in place.” And by the way, WHY should there be a need for “rules” before priests (!) keep their hands off young boys? You don’t get it. Are you Catholic? If you think just leaving is the answer, you are completely lost as to what justice really is. If I close MY eyes to it, it is still happening. And yes, it’s STILL happening. Kids shut down when there is authority abusing them. I’m just shocked you - a lawyer - can’t seem to grasp this. Or, maybe it’s why you can’t, I don’t know.

  10. #35

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    I have wondered the same. I assume its well over a billion that the church has paid out to not only settle claims, but keep pedophile priests out of prison. Not something I would want to contribute money to.
    To be fair, Chaucer didn't write the Canterbury Tales for no reason. Almost every religious organization has its fair share of criminals, grifters and vagabonds.

  11. #36

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck5815 View Post
    To be fair, Chaucer didn't write the Canterbury Tales for no reason. Almost every religious organization has its fair share of criminals, grifters and vagabonds.
    Nobody questions though that it is systemic in the Catholic Church. Whether its celibacy, clericalism, lots of internal fights about why, but nobody seriously questions that it is not a systemic problem in the Church. Big, big difference. To me, the outdated Church dogma regarding celibacy and forbidding priests to marry must go or this will continue.

  12. #37

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky View Post
    So, remove yourself from the situation and all is good. Is that what you seem to be saying? And, Midtowner, why do you think new “rules in place” are any more effective than prior “rules in place.” And by the way, WHY should there be a need for “rules” before priests (!) keep their hands off young boys? You don’t get it. Are you Catholic? If you think just leaving is the answer, you are completely lost as to what justice really is. If I close MY eyes to it, it is still happening. And yes, it’s STILL happening. Kids shut down when there is authority abusing them. I’m just shocked you - a lawyer - can’t seem to grasp this. Or, maybe it’s why you can’t, I don’t know.
    Shocked. Just shocked! Seriously though, what theory of justice do you assert here? How is it just that victims of crimes from the 60s, 70s, 80s, be compensated with monies donated to the Church by people in 2019? Or that assets being utilized in 2019 be sold in order to compensate victims when the crime happened 20-30 years ago? How exactly is that just? It's just spreading the misery around to other innocent victims.

    But yeah, there's really no great legal avenue for a lot of these victims, for criminal prosecutions, the statute runs 12 years after the victim's 18th birthday, or from the discovery of the crime.

    Yes, it's still happening. So long as we have churches, pedophiles will exploit the access it gives them to children. That is not limited to Catholics. What was extreme with Catholics was the measures by which the higher ups hid the abuse and continued to place pedophiles into situations where they could reoffend. For what it's worth, I was raised Catholic, and might be persuaded to return to the Church.

  13. #38

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky View Post
    Nobody questions though that it is systemic in the Catholic Church. Whether its celibacy, clericalism, lots of internal fights about why, but nobody seriously questions that it is not a systemic problem in the Church. Big, big difference. To me, the outdated Church dogma regarding celibacy and forbidding priests to marry must go or this will continue.
    That is not exactly settled science. Celibacy is not mandatory in the B.S.A. or the Jehovah's Witnesses, yet sex abuse was occurring on a large scale and was largely covered up. I think it had more to do with the state of psychological research in the 50s and 60s and 70s when this behavior was more prevalent. Research regarding treatment of pedophiles wasn't really a thing until the 1980s. The prevailing thought at the time these crimes were being committed was that offenders could be treated and put back into service. In retrospect, a tragic mistake, but at the time, that would have probably seemed the correct course of action.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    In this case the church itself is the bad actor.
    Obviously you donít understand the Catholic Faith vs people in the church

  15. #40

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Midtowner, Do you not realize the irony of your complaint about holding Church hierarchy responsible for things 20, 30, 40 years ago? The faith itself is from something that happened 2000 years ago, many Church teachings are almost as old. Sacred tradition is based on Church thought back to the earliest Church history. There is Church dogma that we still uphold today because someone thought of it 900 years ago, if you were raised Catholic, you obviously know this. But, we can’t hold the hierarchy accountable for crimes against children just 30 years ago? Surely this irony is not lost on you?

    I’m a little taken aback by your flippancy about a topic that is as serious as any topic can be. Your answer so far is “if you don’t like it, go join the Episcopalians, they’re basically Catholic with Lady priests.” Really?

    Your thinking this was all more prevalent “back in the 50s and 60s and 70s” is just wrong. Not an opinion, it just flies in the face of all we know. This is a current problem stacked on past problems stacked on other problems and have been used for blackmail on clerics for financial fraud, it is everywhere. Globally, Mid. This is a problem that must be dealt with this time. Some of us will not be happy until we see Church leaders being led out of “sovereign” territory of any Archdiocese involved in conspiracy, in shackles and cuffs. The robe can no longer hide the gross criminality that has become a part of Church culture in many places for far too long.

  16. #41

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky View Post
    Midtowner, Do you not realize the irony of your complaint about holding Church hierarchy responsible for things 20, 30, 40 years ago? The faith itself is from something that happened 2000 years ago, many Church teachings are almost as old. Sacred tradition is based on Church thought back to the earliest Church history. There is Church dogma that we still uphold today because someone thought of it 900 years ago, if you were raised Catholic, you obviously know this. But, we canít hold the hierarchy accountable for crimes against children just 30 years ago? Surely this irony is not lost on you?
    We can't hold anyone accountable for crimes 30 years ago because that's the law. We can't be sure about the accuracy of accusations 30 years in the past. We know that there were issues, but are we to start writing million dollar checks to just anyone who claims they are a victim? It's not irony, it's pragmatism. What.. are we to start compensating victims of the Crusades next? Or victims of the Church's WWII complacency?

    I think you're being a bit dramatic. The Church is handling its issues. It has compensated credible victims.

    Do you have any evidence that this issue is as prevalent as it was 50 years ago?

    Iím a little taken aback by your flippancy about a topic that is as serious as any topic can be. Your answer so far is ďif you donít like it, go join the Episcopalians, theyíre basically Catholic with Lady priests.Ē Really?
    I'm a little taken aback by your need to see leaders being led out of churches in shackles and cuffs. Most of the leadership of the current Church has nothing to do with these transgressions. Of course, show me any institution the size of the Catholic Church, and there are going to be individuals with issues. If you believe the Church today still suffers from the systemic issues of the past, let us know exactly what you're talking about.

  17. #42

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    ^

    And the very structure of the church and the nature of their rules absolutely contribute to a worldwide problem that has ruined the lives (and those of their families) of hundreds of thousands of people. Over 100,000 (that we know of!) in the U.S. alone.

    I know of this matter personally and the church absolutely should be viewed with healthy skepticism and even suspicion.

    The "few bad apples" argument is absurd.

  18. #43

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The thing about the Catholic Church and the current situation is that some are wanting to hold an organization responsible today for things which occurred quite some time ago by now. The same people are not in charge. There are new rules of the road to protect the congregation from pedophiles. This is as if your the President of the Delta house, and Dean Wormer wants to kick you off campus because the Deltas have been on double secret probation because 20 years ago, some of your brothers may have ruined a perfectly good homecoming parade. This is why in most situations, we have statutes of limitations. Sometimes justice delayed can only mean justice denied. And this is why I can understand not going public despite promises to the contrary. Don't like it? Go sign up with the Episcopals. They're basically Catholics with lady priests.
    A bunch of frat boys ruining a parade and the molestation of children that was covered up by the organization are far and away non-comparable, and need to be answered to no matter who long ago it was.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ^

    And the very structure of the church and the nature of their rules absolutely contribute to a worldwide problem that has ruined the lives (and those of their families) of hundreds of thousands of people. Over 100,000 (that we know of!) in the U.S. alone.

    I know of this matter personally and the church absolutely should be viewed with healthy skepticism and even suspicion.

    The "few bad apples" argument is absurd.
    Few or many, they all need rooted out and dealt with. But we still need to separate the faith from the people in the church. Be vigilant,be thorough, find the perpetrators and punish them to the full extent that is permissible. Heal where, when, and as fully as possible. But letís not stop with people in the Catholic Church. Letís do reparations for slave families and the whole race persecuted by many, including prominent church members posing as KKK. And, letís make reparations for native Americans. We need to make everyone who has been harmed as right as possible. And we need to set up control for it to stop and never happen again. But letís be thorough.

  20. #45

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Investigations of past AND current abuses are not mutually-exclusive - BOTH can be investigated, and should be. Some states have amended laws to increase the statutes of limitation on sexual assault, and nothing prevents Oklahoma from doing this.

    The Catholic church's rigid hierarchy is almost without parallel. A priest follows the rules of the parish, which follows the diocese, and the archdiocese, and so on, to the pope. And because the popes have refused to investigate, abuse continues all the way down to the parish level, and so victims must seek justice through police and prosecutors. Just as they do when abuse is alleged by a scout leader, camp counselor, school teacher, neighbor or family member.

    The Catholic church has been given the opportunity to fix this. They haven't. They can't be expected to. I hope that recent Oklahoma victims of abuse seek justice through police & prosecutors, and that victims from longer ago work to reform statutes of limitation for those crimes.

  21. #46

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by rezman View Post
    A bunch of frat boys ruining a parade and the molestation of children that was covered up by the organization are far and away non-comparable, and need to be answered to no matter who long ago it was.
    I thought it was a humorous analogy, but it holds. The fact is that most of these events occurred many years in the past. Most of the perpetrators are dead and the statute of limitations has long since run. If there are current offenders, let's roll out the lynch mob. Until then, I don't expect a law firm whose client is the Church to willingly expose their client to millions or billions in liability because of some P.R. promise they made months ago. Again, if there is current misconduct, then the victims can step forward and report to the authorities and things will be handled from there.

    Until then, we can't go back and right every wrong. The Catholic Church is not alone in having these issues. And true, there are many egregious historical wrongs which haven't been righted. And when these claims are 30-50 years old, there's no way to verify whether they are true claims or folks looking for a pay day. In the meantime, no one is really owed anything. The Church's exposure here is that they may lose members, and the calculus here is how many members do they lose if they report to the public vs. how many do they lose if they don't--and not reporting may have the added benefit of not exposing them to huge liability, both civil and potentially criminal.

  22. #47

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    Let’s do reparations for slave families and the whole race persecuted by many, including prominent church members posing as KKK. And, let’s make reparations for native Americans. We need to make everyone who has been harmed as right as possible. And we need to set up control for it to stop and never happen again. But let’s be thorough.
    No thank you. Reparations are just hand outs. Plain and simple. Paying out to say "hey we're sorry here you go take some money" doesn't solve the problem and arguably will make it worse. Not to mention there are many more pressing needs to spend our tax money on, the right way is to move on and make amends through better treatment and inclusive policies.

  23. #48

    Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    “I thought it was a humorous analogy...”
    Nothing about this is funny. Nothing.

    Midtowner, you are so dismissive! And tone deaf.
    You actually sound like the PR. Your thoughts on responsibilities of the Church are so framed around what’s best for them, their liability, etc.

    “If there are current offenders, let’s roll out the lynch mob.”
    “If there is current misconduct, let the victims report it...”
    The victims are CHILDREN, Midtowner. We all know most don’t report abuse by those in authority until years later, if at all.
    You haven’t been paying attention. You act like this is just all a big nuisance. Your lack of empathy and compassion is astounding.

  24. Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    In this case the church itself is the bad actor.
    No... the hierarchy responsible are the bad actors... not the parishioners, not the priests who have done nothing wrong, not the deacons who have done nothing wrong and certainly not church teaching. There are thousands of priests in the United States. Are you saying 100% of them are abusers? Parishioners including myself bare hoping for those guilty of abuse pay for what they did by being prosecuted and serve prison time. But to say the church itself is the bad actor is too broad of a statement to make.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

  25. Default Re: OKC Archdiocese - McAfee & Taft - whoa

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blue Sky View Post
    Nobody questions though that it is systemic in the Catholic Church. Whether its celibacy, clericalism, lots of internal fights about why, but nobody seriously questions that it is not a systemic problem in the Church. Big, big difference. To me, the outdated Church dogma regarding celibacy and forbidding priests to marry must go or this will continue.
    Men who took the vocation of priesthood and used it to abuse young children are predators. How is giving access to a woman’s body through marriage going to solve the problem? The church warns sternly when considering to become a priest that if you can’t handle celibacy then you shouldn’t become a priest.
    Continue the Renaissance!!!

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