Full list of proposed MAPS 4 projects

[TheTravellers]

PS, LA has allocated billions in less than five years for the homeless and problem has magnified ten fold over what it was prior. Homeless deaths have doubled in 10 years.

LA has 7 times the people and the budget of OKC, just for comparison. LA also has a much nicer climate, therefore probably more homeless are attracted there (I believe it's that way for some of the west coast cities such as Portland, Seattle, etc.).

[David]

It’s cute that you think homelessness boils down to one issue.

Newsflash: it doesn’t.

You were the one who posted the article about SF having a hard time dealing with the homeless problem on account of their housing costs. Maybe don't post articles as your proof if they don't make the point you are trying for?

[Plutonic Panda]

What don't you understand about this - if you can put homeless people with problems (alcohol, drug, mental) in a house or apartment first, then they can address those problems much better than if they were out on the street or going from shelter to shelter?

Yeah, some homeless won't work that way, some will fail, no solution is perfect, but this one probably has the highest chance of success.

First off, you seem to imply I’m against housing for homeless which if you read my post you would see that is incorrect.

Secondly, you are vastly over simplifying the issue. Some don’t want to be in hosing cooped up next to 30 other guys in one room. They aren’t going to go from a street addict to a private apartment in one day. Having other addicts nearby without supervision can magnify. There are rules and restrictions for good reason and if they are broken than they are kicked out. What else would you have done— sent to jail? There are curfews, bedtimes, dinner times, alcohol and controlled substance restrictions, and it is hard enough for many to break away from that even with housing(I’m struggling with alcoholism right now and I’m not even homeless[yet])but then you factor in being homeless. It is a recipe for someone to fall off the deep end and trigger other issues that can arise from that alone.

This is an issue much more complex than too many make it out to be. Many of the “very low market rate” apartments in LA are vacant and those are the last step until you make it into a higher income bracket and you don’t even discuss that with someone who is homeless. I see many in brand new apartment buildings who live in such units drive 20+ thousand dollar cars, buy $30 dollar bottles weekly or even daily, eat like a king, constantly buying weed, etc. Here and there are ways to save and spend more wisely though I don’t advocate living like a machine. We are only human. I am providing some insight and perspective on this issue.

There are many services available and ways out. I have many friends who are homeless many of which are fighting addiction and yet overcoming it or working their way out. Many don’t want government assistance. I don’t. So once again, stop making the issue one of simplicity. Some of these people have anxiety triggered by being confined in walls.

There is no generalization and once you realize that you see how many variations of scenarios that lead to homelessness exist maybe you could be a little more thankful you aren’t there. You gratitude isn’t shown by throwing money and expecting change so you can be shielded from the sight of people sleeping on the streets. If you truly care about the humanitarian aspect of it then open your freaking eyes man and see the liberal cities like LA and SF have accomplished by throwing billions.

[Plutonic Panda]

LA has 7 times the people and the budget of OKC, just for comparison. LA also has a much nicer climate, therefore probably more homeless are attracted there (I believe it's that way for some of the west coast cities such as Portland, Seattle, etc.).

New York has almost as many homeless as California and the climate there is to no affect. Oklahoma has more homeless than Louisiana yet has a smaller population.

[TheTravellers]

First off, you seem to imply I’m against housing for homeless which if you read my post you would see that is incorrect.

Secondly, you are vastly over simplifying the issue. Some don’t want to be in hosing cooped up next to 30 other guys in one room. They aren’t going to go from a street addict to a private apartment in one day. Having other addicts nearby without supervision can magnify. There are rules and restrictions for good reason and if they are broken than they are kicked out. What else would you have done— sent to jail? There are curfews, bedtimes, dinner times, alcohol and controlled substance restrictions, and it is hard enough for many to break away from that even with housing(I’m struggling with alcoholism right now and I’m not even homeless[yet])but then you factor in being homeless. It is a recipe for someone to fall off the deep end and trigger other issues that can arise from that alone.

This is an issue much more complex than too many make it out to be. Many of the “very low market rate” apartments in LA are vacant and those are the last step until you make it into a higher income bracket and you don’t even discuss that with someone who is homeless. I see many in brand new apartment buildings who live in such units drive 20+ thousand dollar cars, buy $30 dollar bottles weekly or even daily, eat like a king, constantly buying weed, etc. Here and there are ways to save and spend more wisely though I don’t advocate living like a machine. We are only human. I am providing some insight and perspective on this issue.

There are many services available and ways out. I have many friends who are homeless many of which are fighting addiction and yet overcoming it or working their way out. Many don’t want government assistance. I don’t. So once again, stop making the issue one of simplicity. Some of these people have anxiety triggered by being confined in walls.

There is no generalization and once you realize that you see how many variations of scenarios that lead to homelessness exist maybe you could be a little more thankful you aren’t there. You gratitude isn’t shown by throwing money and expecting change so you can be shielded from the sight of people sleeping on the streets. If you truly care about the humanitarian aspect of it then open your freaking eyes man and see the liberal cities like LA and SF have accomplished by throwing billions.

Not even going to address most of the stuff here, you're conflating all kinds of stuff together, but yes, Housing First is that simple - put someone that's homeless in a house/apartment (alone, not with 30 other people, don't know where you got that idea) and the chances are fairly good that they will be able to clean up their act (if they're on drugs/alcohol or mentally ill) and get their life together again. Curbside Chronicle, Streetwise, and tons of other street papers have been doing this with success for years, it does work if the homeless person truly wants it to, and yes, there will always be people that don't want to go down that path. It truly does come down to something simple like putting someone in a house/apartment first, then things are more likely to get better for them and then the same can be done for the next person and the next and the next.....

[Plutonic Panda]

Okay, Travellers. Just take someone who is homeless and struggling with mental health or drug addiction and throw them in a house all by themselves and see how that works out.

PS, There are steps taken first before someone goes from the streets to the apartment by themselves. Every situation is different but based on what I know that isn’t how it works. You just assume a roof over their head is the magic key to getting their life together and it’s uphill from there. You are mistaken there.

[TheTravellers]

Okay, Travellers. Just take someone who is homeless and struggling with mental health or drug addiction and throw them in a house all by themselves and see how that works out.

PS, There are steps taken first before someone goes from the streets to the apartment by themselves. Every situation is different but based on what I know that isn’t how it works. You just assume a roof over their head is the magic key to getting their life together and it’s uphill from there. You are mistaken there.

OMG, really, you think I'm that naive? Of course they have help and support from organizations and people before moving in to help them get ready to move in, during the move-in, and after they've moved in, they aren't thrown into a house all by themselves, FFS, that's just about as reductionist as it gets. And BTW, housing first is not going to be the solution to ending homelessness, it's not a complete solution, and it has its flaws, but it works for the most part.

[RedDollar]

Homelessness and drug addiction are just symptoms of mental illness, in my unprofessional opinion. Or at the very least, people with severe mental problems and absolutely no self esteem.

Homeless shelters would really be housing the mentally ill.

That is a function of the State with assistance from the Fed Govt. This is a direction the City should not be going, its doing nothing but growing City govt.

Especially, in Oklahoma, where our constitution limits Citys revenue sources to assessing sales tax. The City would be taking over a function of the State and paying for it with sales tax collections ( and don't bother me with this endowment nonsense, that won't provide a guaranteed revenue stream and cost a bundle to manage ) .

Our Sales Tax rate is already top 10 nationally. The City can not shift to other revenue streams, like income tax or property tax. The sales tax can only be raised so high, so the City needs to be very careful about growth of spending.

And as mentioned above, sales tax is regressive. The only people who pay a tax, are those who feel it in their budgets. The affluent don't feel this MAPS tax, so its easy for them to be soft hearted and want to spend other peoples money on other people, The middle and lower income will pay this tax, because they feel it.

In no way, would I want to confiscate money from working middle class families to pay for this list of projects.

The original MAPS was a public sector investment in capital projects , that would be a catalyst for private sector investment.

What MAPS has evolved to, is nothing near the original MAPS. Did anyone reading this ever attend an 89'ers game at All Sports stadium ? That place was a dump. We needed a new ballpark, a new arena, an entertainment district, and get the rid of the eyesore that was the river. Those were needed projects.

Now they're asking for " wants " , rather than " needs " and venturing off into providing social services that will be there from now on.

Holt says he won't let MAPS " fail " on his watch. What's this " fail " thing about ? MAPS was a temporary tax that was suppose to end. Its not a failure if it ends, the way it was designed to do.

There's so many reasons to vote NO , I can't count them all .

[chuck5815]

Homelessness and drug addiction are just symptoms of mental illness, in my unprofessional opinion. Or at the very least, people with severe mental problems and absolutely no self esteem.

Homeless shelters would really be housing the mentally ill.

That is a function of the State with assistance from the Fed Govt. This is a direction the City should not be going, its doing nothing but growing City govt.

Especially, in Oklahoma, where our constitution limits Citys revenue sources to assessing sales tax. The City would be taking over a function of the State and paying for it with sales tax collections ( and don't bother me with this endowment nonsense, that won't provide a guaranteed revenue stream and cost a bundle to manage ) .

Our Sales Tax rate is already top 10 nationally. The City can not shift to other revenue streams, like income tax or property tax. The sales tax can only be raised so high, so the City needs to be very careful about growth of spending.

And as mentioned above, sales tax is regressive. The only people who pay a tax, are those who feel it in their budgets. The affluent don't feel this MAPS tax, so its easy for them to be soft hearted and want to spend other peoples money on other people, The middle and lower income will pay this tax, because they feel it.

In no way, would I want to confiscate money from working middle class families to pay for this list of projects.

The original MAPS was a public sector investment in capital projects , that would be a catalyst for private sector investment.

What MAPS has evolved to, is nothing near the original MAPS. Did anyone reading this ever attend an 89'ers game at All Sports stadium ? That place was a dump. We needed a new ballpark, a new arena, an entertainment district, and get the rid of the eyesore that was the river. Those were needed projects.

Now they're asking for " wants " , rather than " needs " and venturing off into providing social services that will be there from now on.

Holt says he won't let MAPS " fail " on his watch. What's this " fail " thing about ? MAPS was a temporary tax that was suppose to end. Its not a failure if it ends, the way it was designed to do.

There's so many reasons to vote NO , I can't count them all .

Exactly. And Holt doesn't give a **** about the long-term economics of this package. He'll be sitting in Inhofe's Seat when the bill comes due.

[jedicurt]

Exactly. And Holt doesn't give a **** about the long-term economics of this package. He'll be sitting in Inhofe's Seat when the bill comes due.

when what bill comes due???

[okatty]

This may have already been mentioned but there is a forum on Nov 17th for discussion. Details in link below.

https://kfor.com/2019/11/12/councilw...6-maps-4-forum

[Plutonic Panda]

“ The owner who closed the Smart Saver at N.E. 23rd Street and Martin Luther King Avenue is positioned to receive up to $5 million in MAPS 4 money.

While some may question the big payday, other Eastside voices are calling for it to happen for the sake of people in the neighborhoods who need development in the area.

“Beautification”

Smart Saver, Buy for Less, and Uptown Grocery owners Hank and Susan Binkowski chose to close the store in August rather than invest to improve it and the adjoining stores in the same storefront.”

- https://freepressokc.com/millions-fr...e-smart-saver/

[chuck5815]

“ The owner who closed the Smart Saver at N.E. 23rd Street and Martin Luther King Avenue is positioned to receive up to $5 million in MAPS 4 money.While some may question the big payday, other Eastside voices are calling for it to happen for the sake of people in the neighborhoods who need development in the area.“Beautification”Smart Saver, Buy for Less, and Uptown Grocery owners Hank and Susan Binkowski chose to close the store in August rather than invest to improve it and the adjoining stores in the same storefront.”- https://freepressokc.com/millions-fr...e-smart-saver/

Yep, and I've heard some talk that the Homeland people are getting a similar deal. Just another set of reasons why I'll be voting a hard no on this version.

[Plutonic Panda]

I’m not sure how to feel about it. Business decisions aside, it has bothered me that Bikowski has flat out lied to the community where I refuse to shop at Uptown or Buy for Less. Though I wonder if this development furthers the good old boy network in OKC yet is a development that could ultimately be good for this part of the community. It is valuable land and he should be compensated fairly.

[Rover]

There are a couple of pretty persistent posters here that are adamant about voting no to helping the less fortunate or for things that generally aid in beautification, transportation, public venues or other public improvement endeavors. Does everyone think that that is the majority feeling in OKC or just a couple of people here on the board? What are the odds that MAPS 4 passes?

[Plutonic Panda]

I think MAPS 4 passes. It seems per reports that citywide optimism is pretty high and from what I’ve seen on social media and from friends around the city people are pretty happy with the mayor. I know that isn’t the best indication of reality though.

[shawnw]

Supporters should presume it's going to fail and get out there en mass to vote/show support. Failing to show up because of victorious presumptions could end quite tragically.

[LocoAko]

Supporters should presume it's going to fail and get out there en mass to vote/show support. Failing to show up because of victorious presumptions could end quite tragically.

Yeah, definitely this -- although anecdotally, I agree that I think this will pass.

[chuck5815]

So the City has been actively deleting dissenting voices across all social media platforms. If the City is willing to run afoul of the 1st Amendment, I’d imagine the internal polling must be showing a crack or two.

[OKCRT]

There are a couple of pretty persistent posters here that are adamant about voting no to helping the less fortunate or for things that generally aid in beautification, transportation, public venues or other public improvement endeavors. Does everyone think that that is the majority feeling in OKC or just a couple of people here on the board? What are the odds that MAPS 4 passes?

I think that there are many people that don't want to unjustly enrich certain folks of means and will be voting NO. But, I do think it will pass and these certain folks will profit off this MAPs just like past maps. Must be nice to be in the loop.

[scottk]

Interesting piece by FOX 25 that encourages those in outlying areas of OKC City Limits (despite attachments to the given suburb or school district) to vote in upcoming Maps election.

https://okcfox.com/news/local/where-...is-complicated

[SouthSide]

I think the city is more concerned than usual about the river south area voting NO. I noticed they announced a senior wellness center will be at 134 and S. Western (Maps 3) and a new park will be built in far south okc under MAPS 4. A state representative from the area was even pushing MAPS 4 on facebook. I have only seen one Love OKC sign in south okc so far.

[chuck5815]

I think the city is more concerned than usual about the river south area voting NO. I noticed they announced a senior wellness center will be at 134 and S. Western (Maps 3) and a new park will be built in far south okc under MAPS 4. A state representative from the area was even pushing MAPS 4 on facebook. I have only seen one Love OKC sign in south okc so far.

I think they are nervous about almost every part of the city. Most people are smart enough to not willingly eat a shi* sandwich.

[Quicker]

I think the city is more concerned than usual about the river south area voting NO. I noticed they announced a senior wellness center will be at 134 and S. Western (Maps 3) and a new park will be built in far south okc under MAPS 4. A state representative from the area was even pushing MAPS 4 on facebook. I have only seen one Love OKC sign in south okc so far.

It looks like they should be...

“David Greenwell ‘not supporting’ MAPS 4 without ‘measurable outcomes’’

https://nondoc.com/2019/11/19/david-...tcomes-maps-4/

I’ve had the opportunity to talk to David quite a bit and he has always been a huge supporter of Maps in the past... he is a very intelligent and reasonable man.

[RedDollar]

I think the city is more concerned than usual about the river south area voting NO. I noticed they announced a senior wellness center will be at 134 and S. Western (Maps 3) and a new park will be built in far south okc under MAPS 4. A state representative from the area was even pushing MAPS 4 on facebook. I have only seen one Love OKC sign in south okc so far.

I live far south. I don't want the City to throw us any bones to get our vote. I want a lower sales tax rate. I'm not gonna vote for a billion dollar tax increase just to get some money spent in this part of town. My life is just fine without the City making any improvements.

I don't want to see City government grow. I'm not gonna give them more money to throw out pork to everybody.

Either put this sales tax increase to a vote as a permanent tax or forget it. What they're doing now is akin to getting a $500 shopping spree at Target. And while a person might get some value from a shopping spree, its not the most efficient or effective way to spend money. They're gonna come away with a lot of stuff that's useless.