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  1. #26

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ^

    Or invest a big chunk of that money into education, which is a guaranteed economic development tool.
    How much do you think increasing education funding will help OKC in landing a bigger fish than what we have?

  2. #27

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    I check Texas newspapers frequently, and almost daily, there are new companies bring 100's and 1,000's of jobs into Texas cities. When will we ever hear about stuff like that in Oklahoma? Maybe not that large (multiple hundreds seems doable), but you get the point. Does this state try to get those large tech and finance jobs, or solely manufacturing or distribution jobs?
    My reply is not directed at you but rather those who always harp on and compare us to bigger cities.

    My view is I love OKC and who we are as a city. I don’t want to be those larger cities else I would move there. Why can’t we be happy being OKC? What is so wrong with our city we spend a lifetime trying to copy others? Almost all of the bigger cities have major problems. Tents all over from homeless and more traffic and a lot of debt from trying to outdo others.

    I am all for growth but done smartly. We need to enjoy what we have and our own uniqueness too. Striving to always be something we are not means ignoring/improving on what we have.

    Cities like Dallas are like a Merry go round, and that massive growth can’t/won’t last forever. They have added mega costs to support the growth but as always the costs linger when the growth slows down. Its close to a ponzi scheme where they keep spending to support growth but once the Merry go round stops their costs don’t. Thats when big problems set in either much higher taxes or reduced/bad services or both. NY and LA/Cali are seeing outflux now.

    I don’t want to be Dallas and we seem to spend a lot of time here trying to “catch up”. MAPS 1/2/3 did wonders and now we need to move ahead smartly. We do have business moving here and even started here. Unemployment is low. Cost of living is low. Quality of life is good. Not being snarky but who cares about Dallas its like being married and always wanting your neighbors wife while the one you have is great.

    Does Enid want to always be OKC? Likely no because they have things their residents love. Does Okarche wanna be Enid? Likely no. And so on.

    Why can’t we like who and where we are? Too fast of growth causes rash spending decisions and lots of waste lost in the Merry go round. Eventually the piper has to be paid.

    The charm of being this close to Dallas is one can visit and not have to deal day to day with their problems. And I mean that Dallas residents don’t view them as problems. Same as Enid folks visiting OKC they likely enjoy coming yet likely enjoy going back to their way of life afterwards too.

    The cities growing too fast will crash harder in next recession too.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    My reply is not directed at you but rather those who always harp on and compare us to bigger cities.

    My view is I love OKC and who we are as a city. I don’t want to be those larger cities else I would move there. Why can’t we be happy being OKC? What is so wrong with our city we spend a lifetime trying to copy others? Almost all of the bigger cities have major problems. Tents all over from homeless and more traffic and a lot of debt from trying to outdo others.

    I am all for growth but done smartly. We need to enjoy what we have and our own uniqueness too. Striving to always be something we are not means ignoring/improving on what we have.

    Cities like Dallas are like a Merry go round, and that massive growth can’t/won’t last forever. They have added mega costs to support the growth but as always the costs linger when the growth slows down. Its close to a ponzi scheme where they keep spending to support growth but once the Merry go round stops their costs don’t. Thats when big problems set in either much higher taxes or reduced/bad services or both. NY and LA/Cali are seeing outflux now.

    I don’t want to be Dallas and we seem to spend a lot of time here trying to “catch up”. MAPS 1/2/3 did wonders and now we need to move ahead smartly. We do have business moving here and even started here. Unemployment is low. Cost of living is low. Quality of life is good. Not being snarky but who cares about Dallas its like being married and always wanting your neighbors wife while the one you have is great.

    Does Enid want to always be OKC? Likely no because they have things their residents love. Does Okarche wanna be Enid? Likely no. And so on.

    Why can’t we like who and where we are? Too fast of growth causes rash spending decisions and lots of waste lost in the Merry go round. Eventually the piper has to be paid.

    The charm of being this close to Dallas is one can visit and not have to deal day to day with their problems. And I mean that Dallas residents don’t view them as problems. Same as Enid folks visiting OKC they likely enjoy coming yet likely enjoy going back to their way of life afterwards too.

    The cities growing too fast will crash harder in next recession too.
    I am one of those who always harp on OKCs lack of diversity in industry. Oklahoma does not seem to COMPETE for higher paying more stable industries. This kind of attitude is what keeps Oklahoma at the bottom of almost every economic category and stifles growth and prosperity. The notion that any of us least of all me thinks OKC can or will be Dallas is preposterous and not even in the realm of possibility, however, as was mentioned why can't this State use Dallas' success to bolster ours? why can't OKC be the backoffice location for those large Corporations that all DFW home. I agree with Jonny D

  4. #29

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    How much do you think increasing education funding will help OKC in landing a bigger fish than what we have?
    A ton.

    Look at Texas and the way they fund their public schools and universities.

    Our economies should be closely aligned, due to oil and gas and many other factors. Yet, they are kicking our arses in every conceivable way, WITHOUT providing more economic incentives.


    If you look where there has great growth, you will find great universities. Oklahoma does not have one, let alone many.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    A ton.

    Look at Texas and the way they fund their public schools and universities.

    Our economies should be closely aligned, due to oil and gas and many other factors. Yet, they are kicking our arses in every conceivable way, WITHOUT providing more economic incentives.


    If you look where there has great growth, you will find great universities. Oklahoma does not have one, let alone many.
    OK and Texas are not near each other in terms of oil and gas. That's like saying the earth and Mars are close to each other. But yeah, education needs to be funded better. Thank goodness we are saving for the future....

  6. #31

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    A ton.

    Look at Texas and the way they fund their public schools and universities.

    Our economies should be closely aligned, due to oil and gas and many other factors. Yet, they are kicking our arses in every conceivable way, WITHOUT providing more economic incentives.


    If you look where there has great growth, you will find great universities. Oklahoma does not have one, let alone many.
    +1 NC has great growth and great Universities UNC, NCSU, Duke all highly ranked Nationally

  7. #32

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    OK and Texas are not near each other in terms of oil and gas. That's like saying the earth and Mars are close to each other. But yeah, education needs to be funded better. Thank goodness we are saving for the future....
    Per capita, Oklahoma produces as much O&G as Texas.

  8. #33

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    You have this completely backward IMO.

    Tons of companies relocate here or expand without incentives.

    When you are spending billions of taxpayer money, the burden of proof falls on you and there is no way they can prove someone wouldn't have done X without the incentives.
    If that were the case, Pete, then why does virtually every other sizeable city and state offer economic incentives to draw business? Texas and Texas cities offer incentives like M & M's and do so successfully - read: wins business from Oklahoma. Its undeniable. To do so is like being a climate denier or a flat earther. In a perfect world , there would be none but the world is far from perfect.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    If that were the case, Pete, then why does virtually every other sizeable city and state offer economic incentives to draw business? Texas and Texas cities offer incentives like M & M's and do so successfully - read: wins business from Oklahoma. Its undeniable. To do so is like being a climate denier or a flat earther. In a perfect world , there would be none but the world is far from perfect.
    Nobody is saying that we shouldn't offer them.

  10. Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Grapevine Tx gave the Fleming corp of OKC $ 9 million dollars to relocate their HQ to Tx. Fleming did, and within a couple years they folder shop. Grapevine got zero in long time return. It doesn't always work giving out lump sums.

  11. #36

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Incentives are an investment and investments are never a sure thing. You have to do your research. Note, the Globe Life move turned out pretty well for DFW.

  12. #37

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    in Texas, they pay incentives to, lol.

    https://www.bizjournals.com/sananton...sa-adding.html

    "The estimated economic development incentive fund grant from the city for the company is expected to be $250,000, according to the city’s meeting agenda."

  13. #38

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    A ton.

    Look at Texas and the way they fund their public schools and universities.

    Our economies should be closely aligned, due to oil and gas and many other factors. Yet, they are kicking our arses in every conceivable way, WITHOUT providing more economic incentives.


    If you look where there has great growth, you will find great universities. Oklahoma does not have one, let alone many.
    Half the students that attend OU are from Texas, the problem is, when they graduate, most of them move back to Texas & don't stay in Oklahoma.

  14. #39

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by G.Walker View Post
    Half the students that attend OU are from Texas, the problem is, when they graduate, most of them move back to Texas & don't stay in Oklahoma.
    The question is WHY NOT? JOBS

  15. #40

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    ^

    Or invest a big chunk of that money into education, which is a guaranteed economic development tool.

    I'll vote for investing billions on education in OK when it is accompanied by real reform. 500+ school districts is inefficient on many levels. To retain local control, mandate each county with a population of less than 100,000 have only one school district. Let them decide how to divide up their portion of the funding formula.

    Too many separate colleges. Rather than have each as a separate entity, divide up the state into 4 regions (excluding the OKC and Tulsa metro areas). Let each region decide which campuses to have and which to close.

    There are so many areas that can be reformed to save real money. Put the savings into teacher salaries. Don't let districts divert those funds into something else and call it "as good as an increase".

    Just a few suggestions

  16. #41

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by rte66man View Post
    I'll vote for investing billions on education in OK when it is accompanied by real reform. 500+ school districts is inefficient on many levels. To retain local control, mandate each county with a population of less than 100,000 have only one school district. Let them decide how to divide up their portion of the funding formula.

    Too many separate colleges. Rather than have each as a separate entity, divide up the state into 4 regions (excluding the OKC and Tulsa metro areas). Let each region decide which campuses to have and which to close.

    There are so many areas that can be reformed to save real money. Put the savings into teacher salaries. Don't let districts divert those funds into something else and call it "as good as an increase".

    Just a few suggestions
    I agree. The number of school districts in Oklahoma is absurd and there needs to be real consolidation. But I also know the superintendents don't want to give up their salaries and towns don't want to lose their identities as the schools are basically all that some of these places have left. However, it's unsustainable and needs to be addressed. And there are way too many universities in this state. Support OU and OSU fully and then we can worry about Directional State. Perhaps they can become branch campuses with shared administrative services? Or maybe they're just not sustainable either. It will be painful, but there needs to be some real reform in this area.

  17. #42

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Investing in higher education is a bigger priority IMO and all we do is cut, cut, cut.

  18. #43

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Investing in higher education is a bigger priority IMO and all we do is cut, cut, cut.
    Until this year, you are right. They added more funds for it this year. But elementary and secondary ed keep throwing too big of a fit about any money going anywhere but to them (though they do need more funding, as well).

  19. #44

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Reading the Journal Record version makes it sound like JoBeth was against the one for Booz Allen because the Industrial Military Complex leads to homelessness. No issue with almost the same amount of incentive for Heartland Payments. I know more money could be used for the homeless but let's not throw a $116M economic impact under the bus for posturing. Very disappointed with the new members vote on this.

    I'm not a homeless or economic impact specialist, a Republican, a Democrat or a harmonica player - Just a normal person who hates to see our city miss out on what it deserves for the sake of making a point. I know a lot of people are homeless for no fault of their own, some because they made really poor decisions a few times in a row. - They all need help and deserve compassion and you know what won't fix any of that? Less high, tax paying jobs. If the council wants to vote for more homeless resources take it out of lifestyle budgets, not livelihoods.


    OKLAHOMA CITY – The city’s business incentives policy needs to be reexamined, JoBeth Hamon told her City Council colleagues Tuesday.

    Hamon ultimately voted against paying $250,000 to Booz Allen Hamilton Inc. for the creation of 130 new jobs downtown, as did council members James Cooper and Nikki Nice. The vote passed 6-3.

    BAH is an international management and technology consulting company with diverse services in business, government and military sectors. The Virginia-based company has about 25,300 employees worldwide, of whom 90 work in Oklahoma City.

    The Greater Oklahoma City Chamber has been working with City Hall officials for more than a year to finalize the incentive package in exchange for local office expansion. According to City Manager Craig Freeman’s staff, the total estimated economic impact of the project is $116.7 million over the first seven years of operation, a figure that includes BAH capital investment, wages, state and local taxes. The estimated local sales tax and property tax revenue is expected to be $509,414 over the first five years of operation.

    BAH told officials the company is expecting the average annual wages of the new jobs to be $85,000 in the first year. The overall payroll boost of $1.5 million in Oklahoma City will ramp up to $11 million after six years.

    However, supporting the billion-dollar corporate giant sends the wrong message, Hamon said.

    “Coming from a social services background, whenever I think about economic impact, I tend to think beyond a basic spreadsheet,” she said, referring to her experience as an education coordinator at Mental Health Association Oklahoma. “Booz Allen Hamilton is a military contractor and is one of five military intelligence contractors that hold 80 percent of our private contract work with the federal government.”

    Although efficiencies of scale in company expansion could be beneficial to government expenditures, she said, the military complex leaves a lot of veterans with life-changing injuries and facing homelessness. When the city financially supports such a company, she said, “I think we’re losing in the long term.”

    None of the other council members spoke to the issue before the vote.

    In a related City Council agenda item, Heartland Payments Systems LLC was approved for $1 million in incentives for the creation of 345 jobs over five years. The issue passed unanimously 9-0.

  20. #45

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Geeze... seriously? I mean, be opposed to incentives in general. Sure. I might agree or disagree with that stance, but at least it makes sense. This trying to build a moral high ground out of opposing the military industrial complex, in Oklahoma? That's a major part of our economy. And it's a lot of nose cutting.

  21. Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Geeze... seriously? I mean, be opposed to incentives in general. Sure. I might agree or disagree with that stance, but at least it makes sense. This trying to build a moral high ground out of opposing the military industrial complex, in Oklahoma? That's a major part of our economy. And it's a lot of nose cutting.
    I'm guessing part of her reasoning is also that BAH is a *huge* company, already has 90 jobs here, and doesn't need the incentives and those jobs might have been created anyway (but then voting for the exact same thing for Heartland that's 4 times as much of an incentive is hypocritical). Having said that, $250K is pretty small change compared to some of the other incentives we've given out (and lost the gamble on). So yeah, she needs to get things straight and figure out a consistent philosophy for how she thinks about incentives.

  22. #47

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Lost in all of this is the $1M to Heartland that was also approved.

    They are already well under construction on their building so this is a prime example of city council's approval being a foregone conclusion even though it didn't even appear on their docket until last Friday. So, how are they providing any meaningful oversight over billions of tax dollars being spent in the name of economic development?

  23. #48

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    I don't see any harm in a protest vote when they know it is going to pass anyway. Politicians have been doing it forever. I'm thinking JoBeth and the others are pretty savvy.

  24. #49

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    Lost in all of this is the $1M to Heartland that was also approved.

    They are already well under construction on their building so this is a prime example of city council's approval being a foregone conclusion even though it didn't even appear on their docket until last Friday. So, how are they providing any meaningful oversight over billions of tax dollars being spent in the name of economic development?
    Billions is a VERY strong number. OKC barely has a billion dollar budget, and maybe $10-$20 million tops in incentives for job creation is spent per year. Billions isn't spent on anything in this city. In total, yes. In part, no.

  25. #50

    Default Re: Any new economic developments?

    There will be a billion dispensed in just TIF.

    I'm not talking per year; in total.

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