Oklahoma teacher pay ranking jump

[Midtowner]

Man, I'd love to hear what you think about the actual public school system? I'm actually pretty neutral and can see both sides. But to call them trash? Cmon now. I'm sure you are OK with the way too many administrators and top officials in the public schools making six figures while their kids have 10-15% proficiency in English and math?

Epic's high school is in the BOTTOM 5% of public high schools in the state. 95% of schools in Oklahoma score better than Epic. Epic's owners aren't making six figure salaries. They're turning millions in profit while you begrudge administrators salaries competitive with surrounding states.

[Richard at Remax]

I guess I don't know what to tell you as I haven't said anything about their scores or how good they are. Epic isn't for everyone. From what I have seen it's full of kids that are behind their grade level and didn't do well in traditional setting and need a different pace. maybe that has something to do with it? Beats me.

What I DO know is teachers love teaching there. Overall consensus is parents enjoy the curriculum and pace. Ditto for the kids. Their current enrollment is just under 24,000, next year should be about 35,000. If it was so horrible why are parents flocking there from the traditional school setting? It's a legitimate question.

[dankrutka]

I'm not asking to be argumentative (other than you seem to paint a pretty broad brush) but to see the stats and who is behind them. I know OKC and Denver are distantly separated but there are a number of charter schools around here that are outstanding. Several specialize in STEM and aim to keep girls interested in the subjects, while at the same time allowing boys to escape athletic pressures. One is a music specialty school and one, where a colleague has his 3 mixed-race children pushes business and multi-lingual education.
I wonder if this might be a case of the source of the stats making the outcome what the source wants them to be?

Yes, I was painting and broad brush and I agree that there are excellent charter schools. And, yes, the charters that specialize in an area are more in line with the original vision for public charters and can be effective. I do not have a problem with that model. My larger point is that I disagree, and I believe there is a lot of evidence at this point, that charter schools are not better than traditional public schools. For the most part, just like public schools, charter schools succeed in the accountability-reform model when they have resources and, more generally, educated, wealthier parents. This is not to say that any individual students cannot succeed, but just that standardized tests will always tilt towards families with more social, financial, and educational resources.

When people ask me my recommendations for improving our education systems I tell them it's pretty easy: diminish for-profit influence (e.g., testing companies, for-profit charters), eliminate standardized accountability-reform, and re-commit to school integration.

[dankrutka]

Man, I'd love to hear what you think about the actual public school system? I'm actually pretty neutral and can see both sides. But to call them trash? Cmon now. I'm sure you are OK with the way too many administrators and top officials in the public schools making six figures while their kids have 10-15% proficiency in English and math?

The best part about public schools is that you as a citizen can address administration and superintendent salaries. Charters are not democratic and thus you can't address these issues.

As to the low scores, there's no evidence that charter schools are any better at helping students pass the tests. Proficiency tests are not educational and we shouldn't use them at all to measure schools. They tell you very little about teacher effectiveness. The system is broken. The entire accountability-reform standardized test system is built on the myth of the Houston miracle schools that used accountability measures to make amazing test score jumps... and then an investigation found that it was all fraud. It's a bull**** system and we should quit referencing flawed models to try to describe which schools are "failing" or "succeeding." I taught in suburban OKC schools where I could have slept through all my classes and my students would have tested well. We've got to quit using these tests as our way to talk about schools.

I invited Ben Felder on to my podcast a while ago and I think his insights were really helpful in how pointless our education metrics are. He chose a C school for his kid only because he's an education reporter. It's a great school. It would never have been rated a C if the system wasn't broken.

You can find Ben Felder's episode here: https://visionsofed.com/2016/10/25/e...th-ben-felder/

And here's another good episode on school evaluation systems from an expert: https://visionsofed.com/2017/03/14/e...ack-schneider/

[dankrutka]

What I DO know is teachers love teaching there. Overall consensus is parents enjoy the curriculum and pace. Ditto for the kids. Their current enrollment is just under 24,000, next year should be about 35,000. If it was so horrible why are parents flocking there from the traditional school setting? It's a legitimate question.

I'm glad parents like it and I'll say it could be a well run school. I don't know the details. But as to why parents are flocking there, it's very likely there children are in segregated or low-income schools and, since we're in Oklahoma, we also know the schools are underfunded. Again, some legislators have been working for years to strip state support from public schools so they could then offer charters as an alternative. It's part of their design.

[mugofbeer]

I'm glad parents like it and I'll say it could be a well run school. I don't know the details. But as to why parents are flocking there, it's very likely there children are in segregated or low-income schools and, since we're in Oklahoma, we also know the schools are underfunded. Again, some legislators have been working for years to strip state support from public schools so they could then offer charters as an alternative. It's part of their design.

Really, this seems a bit far-fetched. I could see 1 or 2 fringe players who may have totally lost faith in public schools - and in some cases l can see why.

[Richard at Remax]

I'm glad parents like it and I'll say it could be a well run school. I don't know the details. But as to why parents are flocking there, it's very likely there children are in segregated or low-income schools and, since we're in Oklahoma, we also know the schools are underfunded. Again, some legislators have been working for years to strip state support from public schools so they could then offer charters as an alternative. It's part of their design.

You know I respect your opinion and insight so i will ask this. I don't agree with anything above you are saying. I will add that Epic gets 60 cents on the dollar per traditional public school pupils. They are on pace to be the 3rd largest state district next year. So if the states 3rd largest district is only getting 60 cents on the dollar don't you think the state would want to push (edit: maybe not push, but welcome a parents choice? it's free to to there btw) kids their way? Or any other charter school for that matter? Teachers get paid drastically more on that 60 cents too with an average pay in the $60k i think.Yes I know they don't have the overhead of buildings, ect, but still an interesting discussion.

[dankrutka]

You know I respect your opinion and insight so i will ask this. I don't agree with anything above you are saying. I will add that Epic gets 60 cents on the dollar per traditional public school pupils. They are on pace to be the 3rd largest state district next year. So if the states 3rd largest district is only getting 60 cents on the dollar don't you think the state would want to push (edit: maybe not push, but welcome a parents choice? it's free to to there btw) kids their way? Or any other charter school for that matter? Teachers get paid drastically more on that 60 cents too with an average pay in the $60k i think.Yes I know they don't have the overhead of buildings, ect, but still an interesting discussion.

To answer these questions I'd have to know a lot more. For example, does EPIC serve all students, including students with severe disabilities? A lot of people don't realize that the U.S.' commitment to students' with disabilities raises the costs of public schools significantly. I am proud of IDEA legislation and our incredible special education teachers. This raises costs by a lot. Most private schools, for example, often refuse to serve students with severe disabilities. There's a lot of factors like that which can greatly affect costs. I'd have to do more research to know. But, I'd be highly skeptical of any charter that claims to dramatically outperform public schools serving similar students. There are usually simple explanations for differences in state performance. Most "miracle schools" that claim to raise test scores serving similar students end up being frauds. It's happened over and over again. Now, I'm not saying EPIC isn't a good school. It could be slightly "outperforming" schools with similar students using the flawed ways we collect educational data, but it's likely to fall within the norms of other schools.

[dankrutka]

Are these the same Epic Charter Schools we were discussing in this thread? https://oklahoman.com/article/563486...after-absences

Virtual charter schools almost always have huge drop out rates. Online learning is really challenging to get right and requires talented educators with a specific skill set. Anyway, all these alternatives to public schools hardly ever produce better results that can't just be attributed to socioeconomic indicators (in which case public schools with the same indicators do just as well).

[Rover]

You know I respect your opinion and insight so i will ask this. I don't agree with anything above you are saying. I will add that Epic gets 60 cents on the dollar per traditional public school pupils. They are on pace to be the 3rd largest state district next year. So if the states 3rd largest district is only getting 60 cents on the dollar don't you think the state would want to push (edit: maybe not push, but welcome a parents choice? it's free to to there btw) kids their way? Or any other charter school for that matter? Teachers get paid drastically more on that 60 cents too with an average pay in the $60k i think.Yes I know they don't have the overhead of buildings, ect, but still an interesting discussion.

Does Epic have any extracurricular activities that traditional schools do? Sports? Drama? Music? Debate?

It’s easy to have less cost if you provide less services.

[dankrutka]

I didn't realize Epic was largely online. Is this correct? Of course, it's cheaper, but online schooling (except for in very narrow and specific situations) is such a McDonaldization approach to education: cheaper, more efficient... and low quality generally.

[TheTravellers]

For more info, here's a list of stories Oklahoma Watch has done on Epic:

https://oklahomawatch.org/?s=epic

[Midtowner]

Their High School is ranked in the bottom 5% in the state. They reportedly have a 25% turnover rate. Several times that of a brick and mortar. It's a garbage school which may work for a small minority, but only a small minority of students. It's a poor use of our tax dollars.

[mugofbeer]

Hmmmm, according to greatschool.org, they ranked towards to top of the pack in OKC though their scores were a little below average. Niche.com ranks them C+ overall, A- for teachers and diversity. Certainly not good but not bottom 5%. I wonder if the online nature of the school keeps them ranked low?

[dankrutka]

Greatschools.org uses a formula that is.... basically just test scores, which studies have repeatedly shown are just a reflection of parental socioeconomics more than school quality.

[Midtowner]

Hmmmm, according to greatschool.org, they ranked towards to top of the pack in OKC though their scores were a little below average. Niche.com ranks them C+ overall, A- for teachers and diversity. Certainly not good but not bottom 5%. I wonder if the online nature of the school keeps them ranked low?

Here's their report card from last year. Overall, they received an "F" rating, meaning they are within the bottom 5% of Oklahoma high schools. I am sure several OKCPS schools also fell within that range as well. As benchmarks, U.S. Grant received a "D," as did NW Classen.

What really sets Epic apart in a bad way is its graduation rate--44%, about half of what the statewide average and still well below the OKCPS high schools I looked at. They also perform abysmally in the area of academic achievement--32%, compared to 52% for the State, and in the area of post-secondary opportunities, they scored 11%, four times lower than the state average.

It would probably be interesting to sort out the students going to Epic who would be going to OKCPS, assuming that's a fairly representative cross section, in order to get a real apples v. apples comparison. We pretty much already do have that comparison though when you look at the State as a whole. Their student performance is poor, reflecting weak academics, and if you want your child going to college, Epic is not for you, according to the data.

https://www.oklaschools.com/school/1908/

[dankrutka]

Here's the recent reports on Epic's practices...

Story by Oklahoma Watch on enrollment manipulation: Former Epic Teachers Describe Pressure to Manipulate Enrollment

Here's Oklahoma's Watch about Epic's joke of response from their hired "journalists" in their "Epic News Network" (what a big joke): Oklahoma Watch Response to Epic Commentary

Critique of Epic trying to recruit away public school teachers (Note: I even recieved one of these emails): To add hundreds of faculty, Epic Charter Schools obtained personal information of thousands of Oklahoma public school teachers

Here's the pattern: Charter schools claim to be able to do better than public schools. They fail. So they lie, manipulate their numbers, or demand that their teachers become full time missionaries who work absurd hours and scream their students into submission like it's the military (see KIPP). Some charter schools are fine, some are terrible, but on the whole, the charter mission damages our public institution of public schools, encourages segregation, and fails to deliver on promises.

[Mike_M]

I have a co-worker who strongly sings the praises of Epic Charter schools. They're very well off and live in a good school district, but chose Epic because of the teacher interaction and flexibility.

My understanding is that, as a parent you must be heavily involved. You work with your teacher 30 min a day, and then schedule the rest of your day at your leisure. You can schedule additional time with the teacher if you'd like. Even though the lessons are online, that's just for convenience. The teachers are local and can meet in person if needed. The rest of it is just like home-schooling. You can join home-school groups or other daytime activities.

I was shocked at how little instruction time there is, but the way my co-worker explained it is that his kids are all elementary aged, so the material isn't really that complex. Eliminating the corporate learning environment and making it more of a tutoring session helps his kids understand and practice much faster than in a public school setting. I don't know much about testing or other requirements. He and his wife love being involved like this, but I can definitely see how it isn't for everyone.

The biggest advantage to all of this really is time. They can travel when they want. Schedule appointments or activities without factoring an 8a-3p daily commitment. I get why people may love it and why some may hate it.

[dankrutka]

^^^
So, basically, as long as parents have the time and economic privilege to do most of the teaching themselves then it's a great school. Lol. I'm not saying it can't work for some very select and well off families who want to take vacations without worrying about school, but your entire description is more of an explanation why it won't work for most. If your parents are working class and will often be gone trying to put food on the table then this sounds like an awful option.

By the way, I prepare elementary teachers and the lessons my teacher candidates write are actually very complex and require a level of skill, expertise, and practice that a lot of non-educators don't understand and are also difficult to deliver online.

There is so much lost in online schooling from gaining social skills to participating in clubs or extracurriculars to not having a school in your community. Again, there are select, very specific cases where online learning can be a good option, but they should just operate within existing public school systems.

[SEMIweather]

Lmao.

Epic Charter Schools embezzled millions with 'ghost students,' OSBI says

[Bellaboo]

It looks like Epic is beyond corrupt. At the expense of the taxpayer.

[checkthat]

My brother in law is the co owner of Epic Charter Schools. They are 100% loathed by the public school system.

Sounds like OSBI thinks he made out like a bandit.

OSBI warrant: 'Ghost students' at Epic

In its search warrant, OSBI alleged between 2013 and 2018, Chaney and Harris unlawfully received $10 million in profits from Epic Youth Services and split the total.

[Richard at Remax]

If he did something wrong then yeah, he should pay the price.