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  1. #51

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    Jax Florida would be a similar sized cityin both population and land size. But their taxes are so much different.

    No state income tax

    Milliage rate is 18.02. http://www.coj.net/departments/prope...age-final.aspx

    Sales taxes:

    The current total local sales tax rate in Jacksonville, FL is 7.000%. The December 2018 total local sales tax rate was also 7.000%.

    Sales Tax Breakdown

    District Rate
    Florida State 6.000%
    Duval County 1.000%
    Jacksonville 0.000%
    Total 7.000%

    http://www.sale-tax.com/JacksonvilleFL

  2. #52

    Default Re: MAPS is Decreasing Our Quality of Life

    Last edited by OkieDave; 04-06-2019 at 01:24 PM. Reason: add url

  3. #53

    Default Re: MAPS is Decreasing Our Quality of Life

    [QUOTE=BoulderSooner;1071191]The idea that the lack of Sunday service had anything to do with maps is naive at best. More likely completely disingenuous[/QUOTE

    There is plenty in this thread to warrant a discussion that public transit spending was adversely impacted over the past decade by reserving a full penny of OKC Sales tax for the MAPS3 program but perhaps another way to look at it is to project budget levels going forward.

    This December voters will presumably vote on whether to reserve another full penny for MAPS4 for many years to come. Let's say that one wanted to improve bus service by investing in capital improvements and increasing frequency, routes and/or hours of service. Where would those funds come from? COTPA just approved $2.4 million for off-duty police officers to provide security for the streetcar over a five year period on top of the $3 million/year to operate and maintain the streetcar. It is entirely likely that a recession occurs sometime during the life of the MAPS4 program which would decrease sales tax receipts and by extension the General Fund budget. I believe it is much more likely than not that 5 years from now there will be no substantive progress of the RTA program as it will be slowplayed, studied and discussed to death. In this scenario, a full penny for MAPS4 effectively precludes increasing the COTPA budget for years to come.

    Now if the size of MAPS were decreased to say 3/4 cent and 1/4 went to city operations then that would be a different conversation. What about 1/8 cent for parks and 1/8 cent for public transit? Would represent about $14 million/year for both departments and would be a game changer for the people of OKC.

  4. #54

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    Terrible headline for this thread. The idea that MAPS hurt public transit in this city is crazy. We didn't build sidewalks for 50 years. Can you blame that on MAPS? The City was focused ONLY on cars and roads for decades before MAPS. Let's stop pouring millions into sprawling road projects and instead use that money for public transit (buses, SC, etc)? We don't need to stop MAPS to do that. Nobody, including Ed, questions the insane amount of money spent on sprawling roads. But we build a SC (which is a tiny amount of money in comparison) and everyone freaks out. Also, suggesting the city pay interest on bonds for MAPS-like projects would take even more funds away from the people Ed supposedly wants to help.

  5. #55

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    Quote Originally Posted by okccowan View Post
    Terrible headline for this thread. The idea that MAPS hurt public transit in this city is crazy. We didn't build sidewalks for 50 years. Can you blame that on MAPS? The City was focused ONLY on cars and roads for decades before MAPS. Let's stop pouring millions into sprawling road projects and instead use that money for public transit (buses, SC, etc)? We don't need to stop MAPS to do that. Nobody, including Ed, questions the insane amount of money spent on sprawling roads. But we build a SC (which is a tiny amount of money in comparison) and everyone freaks out. Also, suggesting the city pay interest on bonds for MAPS-like projects would take even more funds away from the people Ed supposedly wants to help.
    i will give Councilmen Shadid credit he did very much question street widening projects on the fringes of OKC early and often during his time on the council

  6. #56

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    The theme of this thread seems to be that the city budget is a zero-sum game and that whatever the haves get will detract from the have-nots. If you solely look at the dollars being spent, that thesis might be true. That would ignore, of course, the fact that these amenities, while they benefit the well-to-do, attract more well-to-do people to the city core. Property values, especially of remodels near the city core are skyrocketing. As property values increase, so will revenues. MAPS, while not directly responsible, served as a model for neighborhoods like the Plaza and the Paseo go from drug dens to desirable over the last couple of decades.

    The streetcar, demonstrably a money pit which serves far fewer riders presently than any road is a gamble--one which will pay off huge if it is responsible for the development of substantial housing projects in the city core whose residents depend on that street car to get them to school/home/work. In terms of spurring development, the Streetcar seems to have the greatest potential to be a home run.

    City leaders shouldn't be thinking about budgets today. They should be thinking of the city's direction 20 years from now--and they have--and that is why other municipalities are copying what we're doing with MAPS.

  7. #57

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    City leaders shouldn't be thinking about budgets today. They should be thinking of the city's direction 20 years from now--and they have--and that is why other municipalities are copying what we're doing with MAPS.
    this is spot on

  8. #58

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    Re: "i will give Councilmen Shadid credit he did very much question street widening projects on the fringes of OKC early and often during his time on the council." I had forgotten that, but you are right.
    Last edited by okccowan; 04-10-2019 at 08:24 AM. Reason: Reply unclear

  9. #59

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    This thread just makes me LOL.

  10. #60

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    If the concern is the cities budget, the city needs to find a compelling argument to increase the sales tax for the area independent of the MAPS conversation. (To be sure I myself would not likely vote for a General Fund increase until RTA funding is secured.)

    I may be ignorant as to what is legal, but if the city is not restricted in how and when it can excise sales tax then I think we can find a way to justify an increase the current sales tax (inclusive of MAPS temp tax) up to 10% total in a majority of circumstances. There are opportunities to limit the affect of such a raise on this tax by limiting the economic sectors in which this applies. For a rough example: The city could lower sales tax on groceries from 4.125% to 3.0% while increasing the sales tax on a majority of other sectors to 5.5%. It could provide a tax rebate processed via the state income tax return for residents for the purchase clothes et al, which can be considered a basic necessity. Our cost of housing is already substantially low in comparison to just about every other major city and really does not need to be subsidized further.

    The reality is that, very much due to MAPS, Oklahoma City has reasserted itself as the "center of the world" as far as this metropolitan area is concerned - this was not nearly as certain 30 years ago as it is today. And for that reason, the city has competitive advantage in a great many areas that oblige residents from outside of the area to come into OKC to spend their money. While the internet certainly makes things more complex, the reality is, if we were to raise the tax to 10% tomorrow it would take the better part of a decade for true competition to our commercial centers to spring to life even in Norman/Edmond, much less Yukon/Moore/Midwest City. That's because even Norman, with the state's largest public University, does not have the critical mass to provide the amenities that OKC can provide due to its much larger employer base and stronger commercial centers (again, largely because of MAPS). OKC could raise the (total) sales tax to 10% tomorrow, and drop it back down to 8.5% 7 years from now and halt any momentum of cities that would try and capitalize on an opportunity to undercut us. In this way, there's no reason the city cannot take steps to ensure its own viability as a resource manager and provider for our residents.

    Of course, doing all of this requires our leadership to continue to evolve and prove themselves to be good stewards and prognosticators. Overall, I don't think you could give our city leaders anything less than a B for the last 10 to 15 years, and I would argue at least an A- is likely warranted.

    Addressing some of the concerns Dr. Shadid raises is necessary, but capitalizing on the positives of things like MAPS would be a step in exactly the wrong direction.

  11. #61

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    correction (because I cannot edit): "..., but NOT capitalizing on the positives of things like MAPS would be..."

  12. #62

    Default Re: MAPS is Decreasing Our Quality of Life

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird View Post
    Bruh, your title is grossly misleading.
    Ed prefers "skilldawg" not "bruh"

  13. #63

    Default Re: MAPS is Decreasing Our Quality of Life

    Can't go much lower than invoking the dreaded "love it or leave it" crap....



    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    Agreed that good points are brought up but the problem isn't MAPS, it's the silly property tax rules that are the ultimate basis for city and state revenue problems.

    Short but sweet, the title of this thread is just outright stupid. I've lived outside OKC for 30 years but still visit almost monthly. Maybe people who live in OKC daily don't see it but OKC has completely transformed since MAPS started. OKC now has good things and having good things cost money. I'm not sure if Mr. Shadid just doesn't like having good things or if some of you are just of the mindset that if "l don't use it so l don't want to pay for it." Lots of other people use those things you all think is a waste. Those things also give OKC an image that was rock-bottom but is now far better. There have been multiple billions invested in the city. The city center is being rebuilt. Are there things outside downtown that need to be done? Sure, but you have to start somewhere. I believe the citizens voted hundreds of millions for street repairs and improvements. There has been a MAPS for kids and there are senior centers being built so the outer ares are not completely ignored.
    To improve the other areas, you have to make it more desirable to live inward, which is starting. The city also needs to do a much better job of attracting outside Angel investing for redevelopment. The city should make it a bit more difficult for outward expansion.
    As the old saying goes, lead, follow or get out of the way. Just don't be an obstructionist whiner and if you are outvoted, live with it. If it's just too much to handle? Leave.

  14. #64

    MAPS3 Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    What did MAPS original initiative do for OKC:

    IMO, it raised the quality of life & how successful our city is viewed today.

    Bricktown Ballpark: Cost: $34 million, we continue to reap the benefits with AAA baseball, Big 12 tournament playoffs and a winter event.

    Bricktown Canal: Cost: $23 million, provided an entertainment district & tourist attraction in the core of our city.

    Chesapeake Arena: Cost: $87.7 million, lured NBA basketball, provided a venue for major concerts, collegiate sports & events.

    Cox Convention Center: Costs: $60 million, renovation of our city's convention center which led to more hotels to kick start our city's renaissance.

    Civic Center Music Hall: Cost: $53 million, renovation of our city's original convention center & performance auditorium, kept its original facade in place.

    State Fairgrounds Improvements: Cost: $14 million, included a new livestock show facility, new horse barns, and renovations and improvements of the arena and several exhibition buildings.

    Ronald J. Norick Downtown Library: Cost: $21.5 million, includes state-of-the-art information services and equipment, classroom space for students of all ages — including adults — as well as traditional library resources.

    Oklahoma River: Cost: $53.5 million, 7-mile stretch of the North Canadian River has been transformed into a series of river lakes bordered by landscaped areas, trails and recreational facilities.

    Oklahoma Spirit Trolleys: Cost: $5 million, nine trolley replicas, served downtown and Bricktown and provided shuttle service to and from the Interstate 40/Meridian hotel and restaurant district and the Stockyards City area. IMO, this is the catalyst for our present day streetcar services which will improve upon completion of the new convention center & Omni headquarters conference hotel.

    Credit $350 million plus dollars, where our city is now as the result of this original initiative investment our voters made in our city, this made it possible to pass subsequent bonds and future initiatives.

    We don't live in a perfect world; the see-saw affect of an initiative like MAPS did raise the tide for our city as a whole and inadvertently lower it for some.

  15. #65

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    One city cited by leaders in both Lexington and Louisville is Oklahoma City. Both chambers of commerce have visited the Sooner State’s capital in the past six years to examine the improvements it has made through investment in infrastructure. In 1993, city leaders pitched a term-limited one-cent sales tax for specified capital projects that would be paid for in cash after the revenues accumulated. The tax represented an additional two cents for the purchase of a typical $2 cup of coffee. Through those pennies, $309 million was raised in Oklahoma City, a city with a U.S. Census population of 444,719 in 1990. That revenue earned an additional $54 million in interest while on deposit, which also was used to finance construction.
    Lexington and Louisville Build Case for Local Revenue Options: https://smileypete.com/business/2013...venue-options/

    There will always be needed improvements which add to the fabric of our city; MAPS initiatives have contributed to the improvements in our quality of life. As OKC enters the Big League city realm, it is important to continue to enhance & improve what we have which contributes to future expansion.

    Since 1990, we've seen significant developments in Oklahoma City & surrounding communities. Keep MAPS initiatives alive, it's an investment balance mixture of needs and wants that will help our city continue to grow at a moderate pace which we should be able to maintain.

  16. #66

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    By the way, are we, OKC referred to as the 'Big Friendly.' Didn't like the reference at first; however it is beginning to have a nice tone to it. OKC is fine with me.

    Remember this 'My 2 Cents:

    Does Oklahoma City Have A Nickname? https://www.news9.com/story/14665619...ave-a-nickname

  17. #67

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    While I think most feel that MAPS projects have been beneficial, there is also a feeling that large areas of the city have been neglected and shutout from OKC's renaissance.

  18. #68

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthSide View Post
    While I think most feel that MAPS projects have been beneficial, there is also a feeling that large areas of the city have been neglected and shutout from OKC's renaissance.
    Agree 100%

    This in my opinion, why there are plenty of items which could benefit our city thru future MAPS initiatives; a blend of needs & wants, therefore we don't have to invent ideas or suggest things we don't need or want. Continue to submit your items to Mayor David Holt.

  19. #69

    Default Re: For many, MAPS is causing a decrease in quality of life

    Having lived in Boston and Seattle, I can say we are veeeeeeeery friendly here in OKC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Laramie View Post
    By the way, are we, OKC referred to as the 'Big Friendly.' Didn't like the reference at first; however it is beginning to have a nice tone to it. OKC is fine with me.

    Remember this 'My 2 Cents:

    Does Oklahoma City Have A Nickname? https://www.news9.com/story/14665619...ave-a-nickname

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