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  1. #176

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Berlin wall?
    He walked into that one, didn't he?

    If you're protesting in favor of something and Nazis and skinheads show up and protest in favor of the same thing, is there a universe in which you can imagine yourself not packing up immediately, going home, and reconsidering your position on the subject? I can't.

    I can't imagine "good people" being in favor of preserving monuments Southern generals were traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys in order to preserve slavery which are only tens of years old and were erected to intimidate blacks.

    Once you are confronted with the purpose of erecting these statues, i.e., racial intimidation, you are either a white supremacist or you aren't. It's a binary choice.

  2. #177

  3. #178

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    So Stupid, right? Here's what he said:
    Fundamental to this experiment to America and our democracy is ensuring we don’t have princes and princesses, kings and queens, a concentration of wealth and power and privilege
    So Un-American! What would the founding fathers think?
    Today's debate echoes that of the nation's founders in another, more profound way. Does allowing a small number of families to accumulate great wealth — increasing from generation to generation — harm democracy? The United States Constitution's ban on inherited titles met with unanimous approval because of the perceived threat posed by lords and earls to a democratic republic. Similarly, Americans have always understood that establishing a small group of families with seemingly unlimited wealth, social privilege, and political power undermines a fundamental American principle: that all citizens are legally and politically equal.

    Some founders wanted to eliminate inheritance entirely. In a letter to James Madison, Thomas Jefferson suggested that all property be redistributed every fifty years, because "the earth belongs in usufruct to the living." Madison gently pointed out the plan's impracticality. Benjamin Franklin unsuccessfully pushed for the first Pennsylvania constitution to declare concentrated wealth "a danger to the happiness of mankind."
    http://origins.osu.edu/history-news/...rican-founders

  4. #179

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    He walked into that one, didn't he?

    If you're protesting in favor of something and Nazis and skinheads show up and protest in favor of the same thing, is there a universe in which you can imagine yourself not packing up immediately, going home, and reconsidering your position on the subject? I can't.

    I can't imagine "good people" being in favor of preserving monuments Southern generals were traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys in order to preserve slavery which are only tens of years old and were erected to intimidate blacks.

    Once you are confronted with the purpose of erecting these statues, i.e., racial intimidation, you are either a white supremacist or you aren't. It's a binary choice.
    So you are saying those who support Dems are racist correct? After all Democrats started the KKK.

    It was founded as a political organization to intimidate black and Republican voters in the south during reconstruction after the Civil War.

    Only 69% of Democrats in the Senate voted for the Civil Rights Act, while 82% of Republican Senators voted for it. In the House, it was even worse, with just 63% of Democrats voting in favor, and 80% of Republicans supporting the legislation.

    There needs to be history in our country and how does one draw lines on where to stop or start dismantling history?

    Same as Democrats starting KKK, would I assume all Dems of today are racist? No, I would not. But in your line of thinking I must because they started a racist cult. But you do have a Virginia Gov who dressed up in KKK robe and wore blackface and he is still Gov. Where is yours and others outrage?

  5. #180

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Once you are confronted with the purpose of erecting these statues, i.e., racial intimidation, you are either a white supremacist or you aren't. It's a binary choice.
    It's true that people are either white supremacists or they are not. But that determination isn't tied to whether they agree with you on a particular issue.

  6. #181

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    So you are saying those who support Dems are racist correct? After all Democrats started the KKK.

    It was founded as a political organization to intimidate black and Republican voters in the south during reconstruction after the Civil War.
    This is false, though it is true that the Democratic party was the preferred political party of the Jim Crow era south. But times change. Only 9% of black voters choose a Republican congressional candidates in 2018.

    https://www.politifact.com/facebook-...klu-klux-klan/

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post

    Only 69% of Democrats in the Senate voted for the Civil Rights Act, while 82% of Republican Senators voted for it. In the House, it was even worse, with just 63% of Democrats voting in favor, and 80% of Republicans supporting the legislation.
    And since then, starting with Reagan’s “Southern Strategy” the parties have flipped. The party of Lincoln is now the haven of racists and bigots. Today it’s the party of the absolutely evil Andrew Jackson that fights for inclusion and equal rights. History is strange that way. Again, only 9% of black voters vote Republican today when before Kennedy nearly all did.

    Certainly not all or even most Republicans today are racists, but many are.

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    There needs to be history in our country and how does one draw lines on where to stop or start dismantling history?

    Same as Democrats starting KKK, would I assume all Dems of today are racist? No, I would not. But in your line of thinking I must because they started a racist cult. But you do have a Virginia Gov who dressed up in KKK robe and wore blackface and he is still Gov. Where is yours and others outrage?
    I certainly hoped he would step down, he at least did apologize and is not running for reelection. But what he did was 35 years ago while Steve King is spouting racist crap just this week and IS running for reelection. And Tucker Carlson can’t even be bothered to apologize for bigoted and sexist ugly statements from just 10 years ago. And then There’s Trump, America’s leading bigot. He never will apologize while just last week claiming that White Supremacists “are a small group” while at the same time portraying asylum seekers as criminal drug lords and rapists.

  7. #182

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Which begs the question, if southern whites are so damn racist, why in the hell are there so many blacks living in those vary same states? Perplexing if you ask me.

    In reality, it's only perplexing if you take the ludicrous take you just laid out.

  8. #183

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Which begs the question, if southern whites are so damn racist, why in the hell are there so many blacks living in those vary same states? Perplexing if you ask me.

    In reality, it's only perplexing if you take the ludicrous take you just laid out.
    Correlation doesn’t equal causation and I want to make that clear. It is interesting some of the most liberal areas like Portland are overwhelmingly white.

  9. Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Which begs the question, if southern whites are so damn racist, why in the hell are there so many blacks living in those vary same states? Perplexing if you ask me.

    In reality, it's only perplexing if you take the ludicrous take you just laid out.
    Systemic racism and the fact that black households have a very small percentage of wealth built up vs. whites, so they can't just pick up and move because they don't have the money, a new job waiting for them up north, etc.?

    Honestly, though, if I was black and living in the south, I'd do absolutely everything I could to get out, but sometimes it just is not possible.

  10. #185

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Systemic racism and the fact that black households have a very small percentage of wealth built up vs. whites, so they can't just pick up and move because they don't have the money, a new job waiting for them up north, etc.?

    Honestly, though, if I was black and living in the south, I'd do absolutely everything I could to get out, but sometimes it just is not possible.
    So "poor" blacks (your words not mine) moved to the Northern industrial cities, then moved back?

    I understand economics likely played a role. But I think you bass-ackwards folks on here think there are still clan rallies and such in Mississippi on a regular basis. I would dare say the south might just be more hospitable to people of many different races, but hey, don't let me tell you. People speak with their money and their feet. And their money and feet head south if they ain't white in large proportions.

  11. Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    So "poor" blacks (your words not mine) moved to the Northern industrial cities, then moved back?

    I understand economics likely played a role. But I think you bass-ackwards folks on here think there are still clan rallies and such in Mississippi on a regular basis. I would dare say the south might just be more hospitable to people of many different races, but hey, don't let me tell you. People speak with their money and their feet. And their money and feet head south if they ain't white in large proportions.
    And this is why I ignore you. There have been untold studies that show blacks have less wealth than whites, so it's not "my" words, it's a f-ing fact. And who said they moved north, then moved back - any studies/proof that's what's happening? Don't even bother answering, I don't even care to discuss the rest with you after your BS first statement.

  12. #187

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    And this is why I ignore you. There have been untold studies that show blacks have less wealth than whites, so it's not "my" words, it's a f-ing fact. And who said they moved north, then moved back - any studies/proof that's what's happening? Don't even bother answering, I don't even care to discuss the rest with you after your BS first statement.
    Less wealth does not equal poor. Mobility in this country is fairly easy. I point out how large numbers have migrated north and back south again. And I'm ignoring reality? Ok.

    You don't answer because you can't. It ain't rocket science my friend.

  13. #188

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    wait... so are we comparing taking down civil war memorials that mostly went up in the 1950's and 1960's (kind of a convenient time for them to magically appear and all of a sudden be historically significant), to blowing up of several thousand year old statues???

    if these statues and monuments were build during or just after the civil war (and some of them, but few are), then i'm all for saving them for the sake of historical context... but most of these only went up as a racist gesture.... but lets not let facts get in the way. FACT... if it wasn't needed for historical significance of the Civil War in 1940, then it wasn't needed for historical significance in the 1950's, or 1960's... and so the reason for it's creation must have been something else
    There are no facts in what you wrote. Your time frame is completely off... The statue and park we’re dedicated in the 1920s, are almost 100 years old and are on the national register of historic places in the heart of the most historic part of downtown Charlottesville....

  14. #189

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    When you stand with Nazis and the KKK, you're generally speaking, not on the side of right.

    So there's a clear distinction between monuments to Confederates and Monticello. These Confederate generals who are so venerated mostly knew their war was a lost cause. Nevertheless, they led their troops into a bloodbath which would see 1.6 million men and boys killed in some of the most brutal combat ever seen to that date. The sent these men and boys to their death for state's rights.. or more particularly, their states' rights to allow the institution of slavery to continue. These were not virtuous men. They were not heroes. They were scumbags of the highest order. They should have been hanged for treason and likely would have had Lincoln not granted them amnesty.

    These men are lionized, but even Robert E. Lee, the sacred cow of the South, was a scumbag. His treatment of his slaves was among the worst. When he took over his wife's father's estate (through less than honest means) he instituted a policy of hiring out his slaves to surrounding plantations, intentionally splitting every family he owned. Some of which had been together since the days of Washington.

    He wasn't just cruel with his policies, he was cruel in person:



    Now you can say a lot of things about Jefferson, and I think you should. I think he is venerable for some things he did, but obviously (Sally Hennings) flawed. Jefferson did quite a bit of good. He was instrumental in the founding of the Republic. He was a brilliant man by all accounts, he acquired more territory for the U.S. than any other President.

    He did not lead a revolt, killing 1.6 million men and boys against an industrialized opponent with half the number of men and logistical inferiority to protect slavery. Even post-bellum Lee disagreed with monuments to the Confederacy.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.276e8b377df2

    He did so on the ground that keeping those monuments would leave open the sores of war. Seeing as how the removal of these monuments was protested by Confederate battle flag waving Kluckers, Lee, in this instance, was prophetic.

    And let's keep the personal attack bile out of this, k?
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/
    Seriously? That was a nice attempt to divert but this isn’t a discussion about Robert E Lee...this is about you being wrong in quoting the president and saying that he was saying that Nazis, white supremacist and the KKK are good people when he clearly said just the opposite...and I provided the transcript of what was said to prove it... The quote the president made was clearly in reference to the taking down of the statue and the renaming of the park and that yes, there are good people on both sides... Charlottesville is a very small city of only about 50,000 and you condemned anybody that lives there that wasn’t in favor of taking down the statue and renaming the park as being a white suprimist, a nazi and supporter of the KKK... you should be embarrassed...

  15. #190

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicker View Post
    There are no facts in what you wrote. Your time frame is completely off... The statue and park we’re dedicated in the 1920s, are almost 100 years old and are on the national register of historic places in the heart of the most historic part of downtown Charlottesville....
    Different decade but same intent.

    In the decades after the Civil War, memorials celebrating the south’s valiant effort and glorious defeat appeared all over the region. They embodied the myth of the “lost cause” – the idea that the war had been fought to defend states’ rights, rather than slavery. In this interpretation, the south only lost because of the industrial might of the northern “aggressor”.

    This doctrine came to prominence during the Jim Crow era when whites implemented racial segregation through violent, extra-legal and then legal means. The lost cause memory was used to justify and enforce white supremacy.



    The same year as Lee’s statue appeared in Charlottesville, Virginia passed laws which strengthened definitions of who was “colored” and who was “white”, and which reinforced the law prohibiting interracial marriage. Then, two years later, the state passed a law to enforce racial segregation in places of public entertainment.

    The monument to Lee served the same purpose as the legislation – to remind African Americans of their perceived place and inferiority.

    http://theconversation.com/charlotte...t-unrest-82476

  16. #191

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    And this is why I ignore you. There have been untold studies that show blacks have less wealth than whites, so it's not "my" words, it's a f-ing fact. And who said they moved north, then moved back - any studies/proof that's what's happening? Don't even bother answering, I don't even care to discuss the rest with you after your BS first statement.
    This poster is the single biggest example of one who freely dishes it out then runs under the bedsheets whining and crying the moment someone dishes on him or disagrees with him. lronic because on the one hand, outside of the cities, the rural south is still horribly racist. lve seen, heard and lived among it within my own extended family. On the other hand, if it were that bad a place to live, you would find a way to leave. lf all those poor souls can get to the US southern border because life in Central America is so bad, southern blacks could find a way move north. I call BS on theTravellers on this notion.

  17. #192

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    This is false, though it is true that the Democratic party was the preferred political party of the Jim Crow era south. But times change. Only 9% of black voters choose a Republican congressional candidates in 2018.

    https://www.politifact.com/facebook-...klu-klux-klan/



    And since then, starting with Reagan’s “Southern Strategy” the parties have flipped. The party of Lincoln is now the haven of racists and bigots. Today it’s the party of the absolutely evil Andrew Jackson that fights for inclusion and equal rights. History is strange that way. Again, only 9% of black voters vote Republican today when before Kennedy nearly all did.

    Certainly not all or even most Republicans today are racists, but many are.



    I certainly hoped he would step down, he at least did apologize and is not running for reelection. But what he did was 35 years ago while Steve King is spouting racist crap just this week and IS running for reelection. And Tucker Carlson can’t even be bothered to apologize for bigoted and sexist ugly statements from just 10 years ago. And then There’s Trump, America’s leading bigot. He never will apologize while just last week claiming that White Supremacists “are a small group” while at the same time portraying asylum seekers as criminal drug lords and rapists.
    Serious question. Are you saying you support a higher INCOME tax on the wealth or are you advocating the legality of coming in and seizing someone's WEALTH? Income and wealth are two radically different things.

  18. Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Again, the Southern generals were traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys in order to preserve slavery.

    The Union generals fought a war end slavery and preserve the United States.

    Which are your bad guys here?
    Lol, In additon to being bad at politics, youíre pretty rough on history as well.

  19. #194

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    Lol, In additon to being bad at politics, you’re pretty rough on history as well.
    Are you implying the civil war was not about preserving slavery?
    Don't hassle me, I'm local.

  20. #195

  21. Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Stew View Post
    Are you implying the civil war was not about preserving slavery?
    No, Iím implying that he is far oversimplfying the motivations of all the southern generals in the Civil War.

  22. Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    You and a few others here are the reason I hope Pete hosts a another meet up like he used to when he lived in LA.

  23. #198

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    You and a few others here are the reason I hope Pete hosts a another meet up like he used to when he lived in LA.
    Is the article incorrect about SAE rewriting their confederate history, effectively tearing down their own monuments? Or were they just moving them to the basement?

  24. #199

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by mkjeeves View Post
    Is the article incorrect about SAE rewriting their confederate history, effectively tearing down their own monuments? Or were they just moving them to the basement?
    Should we be praising the tearing down of history or not? I'm just getting confused.

  25. #200

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Should we be praising the tearing down of history or not? I'm just getting confused.
    Or should we be venerating and honoring with monuments those who led an armed insurrection against a duly elected government?

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