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  1. #151

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    "Very fine people on both sides."

    Let me suggest that when you go to protest something and neo-Nazis appear to rally in support of what you're there for, you might reconsider your support for that measure or at least you go home. Further, if you stand in solidarity with Nazis and KKK members, you aren't in the right.
    Thatís just too funny... After I proved you wrong on the quote, youíre now labeling the citizens of Charlottesville that didnít do anything more than oppose part of their very rich history being sanitized by taking down a statue and renaming a park thatís been there for almost 100 years in the historic center of their city as all being nazi white supremist... Charlottesville was the home of Thomas Jefferson too...a plantation owner... Are you for burning down Monticello? Removing the Jefferson Memorial? How about the Washington Monument? Youíre obviously a nazi white supremist if your not...smh... We can only hope youíre never a judge...

  2. #152

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicker View Post
    That’s just too funny... After I proved you wrong on the quote, you’re now labeling the citizens of Charlottesville that didn’t do anything more than oppose part of their very rich history being sanitized by taking down a statue and renaming a park that’s been there for almost 100 years in the historic center of their city as all being nazi white supremist... Charlottesville was the home of Thomas Jefferson too...a plantation owner... Are you for burning down Monticello? Removing the Jefferson Memorial? How about the Washington Monument? You’re obviously a nazi white supremist if your not...smh... We can only hope you’re never a judge...
    When you stand with Nazis and the KKK, you're generally speaking, not on the side of right.

    So there's a clear distinction between monuments to Confederates and Monticello. These Confederate generals who are so venerated mostly knew their war was a lost cause. Nevertheless, they led their troops into a bloodbath which would see 1.6 million men and boys killed in some of the most brutal combat ever seen to that date. The sent these men and boys to their death for state's rights.. or more particularly, their states' rights to allow the institution of slavery to continue. These were not virtuous men. They were not heroes. They were scumbags of the highest order. They should have been hanged for treason and likely would have had Lincoln not granted them amnesty.

    These men are lionized, but even Robert E. Lee, the sacred cow of the South, was a scumbag. His treatment of his slaves was among the worst. When he took over his wife's father's estate (through less than honest means) he instituted a policy of hiring out his slaves to surrounding plantations, intentionally splitting every family he owned. Some of which had been together since the days of Washington.

    He wasn't just cruel with his policies, he was cruel in person:

    When two of his slaves escaped and were recaptured, Lee either beat them himself or ordered the overseer to "lay it on well." Wesley Norris, one of the slaves who was whipped, recalled that “not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh, Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done.”
    Now you can say a lot of things about Jefferson, and I think you should. I think he is venerable for some things he did, but obviously (Sally Hennings) flawed. Jefferson did quite a bit of good. He was instrumental in the founding of the Republic. He was a brilliant man by all accounts, he acquired more territory for the U.S. than any other President.

    He did not lead a revolt, killing 1.6 million men and boys against an industrialized opponent with half the number of men and logistical inferiority to protect slavery. Even post-bellum Lee disagreed with monuments to the Confederacy.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.276e8b377df2

    He did so on the ground that keeping those monuments would leave open the sores of war. Seeing as how the removal of these monuments was protested by Confederate battle flag waving Kluckers, Lee, in this instance, was prophetic.

    And let's keep the personal attack bile out of this, k?
    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...al-lee/529038/

  3. #153

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    So are you trying to link these Civil War "villians" with Trump or something? Or were you just in the mood for a history lesson?

    I simple apology would have sufficed.

  4. #154

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    When you stand with Nazis and the KKK, you're generally speaking, not on the side of right.
    When you use the same tactics as the Taliban, you're generally speaking, not on the side of right either.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan

  5. #155

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    When you use the same tactics as the Taliban, you're generally speaking, not on the side of right either.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan
    wait... so are we comparing taking down civil war memorials that mostly went up in the 1950's and 1960's (kind of a convenient time for them to magically appear and all of a sudden be historically significant), to blowing up of several thousand year old statues???

    if these statues and monuments were build during or just after the civil war (and some of them, but few are), then i'm all for saving them for the sake of historical context... but most of these only went up as a racist gesture.... but lets not let facts get in the way. FACT... if it wasn't needed for historical significance of the Civil War in 1940, then it wasn't needed for historical significance in the 1950's, or 1960's... and so the reason for it's creation must have been something else

  6. #156

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    wait... so are we comparing taking down civil war memorials that mostly went up in the 1950's and 1960's (kind of a convenient time for them to magically appear and all of a sudden be historically significant), to blowing up of several thousand year old statues???

    if these statues and monuments were build during or just after the civil war (and some of them, but few are), then i'm all for saving them for the sake of historical context... but most of these only went up as a racist gesture.... but lets not let facts get in the way. FACT... if it wasn't needed for historical significance of the Civil War in 1940, then it wasn't needed for historical significance in the 1950's, or 1960's... and so the reason for it's creation must have been something else
    Nah, I'm just trying to be like Midtowner and pass off a snarky quip as if it were great wisdom.

    But in general I don't side with angry mobs who rip down statues they don't like. A lot of civil war monuments were put up for racist reasons, but the process for taking them down should be with public debate, not torches and pitchforks.

  7. #157

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    So are you trying to link these Civil War "villians" with Trump or something? Or were you just in the mood for a history lesson?

    I simple apology would have sufficed.
    We're back to the good people on "both sides." I don't think you can stand shoulder to shoulder with Nazis and Kluckers and be good people.

  8. #158

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    wait... so are we comparing taking down civil war memorials that mostly went up in the 1950's and 1960's (kind of a convenient time for them to magically appear and all of a sudden be historically significant), to blowing up of several thousand year old statues???

    if these statues and monuments were build during or just after the civil war (and some of them, but few are), then i'm all for saving them for the sake of historical context... but most of these only went up as a racist gesture.... but lets not let facts get in the way. FACT... if it wasn't needed for historical significance of the Civil War in 1940, then it wasn't needed for historical significance in the 1950's, or 1960's... and so the reason for it's creation must have been something else
    In fairness, there wasn't a lot of spare change for monuments in the south right after the Civil War.

  9. #159

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    When you use the same tactics as the Taliban, you're generally speaking, not on the side of right either.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamyan
    Destroying statues of religious figures which are thousands of years old is different from destroying statues of traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys, which are tens of years old, yes?

  10. #160

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    In fairness, there wasn't a lot of spare change for monuments in the south right after the Civil War.
    in all fairness... waiting till the middle of the Civil Rights movement to erect the statue kind of diminishes any argument that it was solely about the historical significance of the people and events.

    like i state... if there wasn't a historical need for by the 1940's, then it wasn't a historical need for it in the 1950's and 60's when most were installed.

  11. #161

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Destroying statues of religious figures which are thousands of years old is different from destroying statues of traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys, which are tens of years old, yes?
    calm down on that train of thought.. you are going to just make this harder and make them stand firmer on their belief... don't talk about the Civil War at all. talk about the actual real reason these monuments were installed during the Civil Rights movement... to disparage Black people, and show that they still weren't in charge. if you make this a conversation about the Civil War as a whole, you are allowing them to keep thinking that these are monuments with historical significance, even if that historical event is a dark time in our past... the reality is that they aren't that... and we shouldn't treat them as such

  12. #162

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    in all fairness... waiting till the middle of the Civil Rights movement to erect the statue kind of diminishes any argument that it was solely about the historical significance of the people and events.

    like i state... if there wasn't a historical need for by the 1940's, then it wasn't a historical need for it in the 1950's and 60's when most were installed.
    Government budgets were also in a better spot. Just rolling off a depression and all you know.

  13. #163

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Destroying statues of religious figures which are thousands of years old is different from destroying statues of traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys, which are tens of years old, yes?
    I think you are doing what you always do, making incendiary claims to troll people and then acting superior. I don't side with angry mobs who destroy public property.

  14. #164

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    We're back to the good people on "both sides." I don't think you can stand shoulder to shoulder with Nazis and Kluckers and be good people.
    Are we going to play six degrees of Kevin Bacon, political opinion style. Where any opinion held by two groups thus makes both groups the devil. I don't think this is a road we want to travel.

  15. #165

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Destroying statues of religious figures which are thousands of years old is different from destroying statues of traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys, which are tens of years old, yes?
    So Union generals didn't spill any blood? Whoa, this is news to me.

  16. Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    I think you are doing what you always do, making incendiary claims to troll people and then acting superior. I don't side with angry mobs who destroy public property.
    Berlin wall?

  17. #167

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Government budgets were also in a better spot. Just rolling off a depression and all you know.
    really??? because one of the best time period of government budgets during all of that was the 1890's through the 1910's... also one of great economic development as well... and they weren't needed then... in fact, there was very little over sight into government spending at local, state or federal level in that same time period... also was leading up to the 50th memorial of the Civil War.... would have been a great time to build a whole bunch of those monuments and statues... but again... most were not built during this time frame... only a few decades later when Civil Rights and if Blacks truly were equal, was the conversation of the day... that still seems to be a weirder time frame to of built them for the "historical significance" that these things are supposed to represent..

  18. #168

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Berlin wall?
    Things change a bit when you're talking about rebelling against a despotic government. I know that North Carolina and the Soviet Union have so much in common...

  19. #169

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    So Union generals didn't spill any blood? Whoa, this is news to me.
    This is like blaming the Allied war dead on the Allied commanders instead of the Axis powers. Read books.

  20. #170

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    Things change a bit when you're talking about rebelling against a despotic government. I know that North Carolina and the Soviet Union have so much in common...
    I'm sure perspectives are different if you are a black person living in the deep South surrounded by monuments to men who tried to keep your ancestors in chains.

  21. #171

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    So Union generals didn't spill any blood? Whoa, this is news to me.
    Again, the Southern generals were traitorous, loser, slavery protectors who butchered 1.6 million men and boys in order to preserve slavery.

    The Union generals fought a war end slavery and preserve the United States.

    Which are your bad guys here?

  22. #172

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    really??? because one of the best time period of government budgets during all of that was the 1890's through the 1910's... also one of great economic development as well... and they weren't needed then... in fact, there was very little over sight into government spending at local, state or federal level in that same time period... also was leading up to the 50th memorial of the Civil War.... would have been a great time to build a whole bunch of those monuments and statues... but again... most were not built during this time frame... only a few decades later when Civil Rights and if Blacks truly were equal, was the conversation of the day... that still seems to be a weirder time frame to of built them for the "historical significance" that these things are supposed to represent..
    I don't think monuments are ever "needed". But I agree with you that many of these monuments were probably created for purely racial reasons. They were a big middle finger to black people. Look at the history of Stone Mountain in Atlanta. Terrible stuff. The question is, what is our course of action today? How should we handle monuments that were erected for bad reasons, but yet still have some amount of historical relevance?

    Trump sticks his foot in his mouth on a regular basis. And sometimes he says things that make you wonder if he's quietly winking at some of the less savory groups out there. But you're not going to convince anybody about what his intentions were with that particular statement.

  23. #173

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    And I'm not going to let go on the premise that these monuments are being destroyed by mobs. That would be inaccurate. From what I've seen, city governments are taking many of these or even most of these down themselves. In most of the cases I've seen, city workers show up under cover of darkness, unannounced and the statues are gone the next day.

  24. #174

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    Nah, I'm just trying to be like Midtowner and pass off a snarky quip as if it were great wisdom.

    But in general I don't side with angry mobs who rip down statues they don't like. A lot of civil war monuments were put up for racist reasons, but the process for taking them down should be with public debate, not torches and pitchforks.
    In Charlottesville the city did have public input and decided to take down the statues. The angry mobs were the Nazi's that marched in stupid looking armor chanting "Jews will not replace us", terrorized to the local population including churches and synagogues and ended up killing a student.

    Over and over the angry mobs have been the ones flying Confederate and Nazi flags defending the statues over the decision of the local government. The only time I can think of where a mob took down a confederate monument was at UNC.

  25. #175

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race



    Oh no! They're destroying their history!

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