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  1. #101

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by hoya View Post
    You... you DO know that’s exactly what he did, don’t you? I thought everybody knew that.

    Charles Manson told his followers that several White Album songs including "Helter Skelter" were a part of the Beatles' coded prophecy of an apocalyptic war in which racist and non-racist whites would be manoeuvred into virtually exterminating each other over the treatment of blacks.[36][37][38] Upon the war's conclusion, after black militants would kill off the few whites they would know to have survived, Manson and his "Family" of followers would emerge from an underground city in which they would have escaped the conflict. As the only remaining whites, they would rule blacks, who, as the vision went, would be incapable of running the United States. Manson employed "helter skelter" as the term for this sequence of events
    This is a fair summary. I mean, it's hard to even comprehend how Manson came up with it, but that's what he claimed.

    But the equivalency you're making to the New Zealand terrorist attack is strange.

    Manson claimed his motivation to engineer mass murder was based on the idea that a song about going up and down a slide was a coded message for him to start a race war. (and really, it was more likely motivated by drug fueled vengeance towards a beach boys producer that snubbed Manson and used to live in the Tate / Polanski house where the first murders happened).

    The NZ terrorist reportedly engineered a mass killing motivated by anti-immigration and anti-Muslim ideas, according to those who have read his manifesto (I have not, and I'm not convinced I need to).

    So, basically, what we're working with is that The Beatles wrote a song about going up and down a slide. And then and a crazy person engineered mass murder to start a race war based on the idea that a song about a going up and down on a slide is about killing people to start a race war.

    And that, Trump, as The President of the United States, campaigned on, wrote about, and enacted policy initiatives aimed at curtailing immigrants and Muslims from entering America are justified by the idea that they are dangerous. And then a crazy person engineered mass murder because he thinks immigrants and Muslims are dangerous.

    What's amazing to me is that either of these things would be equivalent to anyone in any way, or, really, even compared.

  2. #102

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicker View Post
    Are you really an attorney? I guess that actually explains a lot...

    ‘’CNN is lying to the American people, reporting many times in the past several weeks that President Donald Trump called neo-Nazis “very fine people” in the wake of riots in Charlottesville, Virginia, in August 2017 — even though its own reporting at the time disproves that claim...’’

    https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/...tesville-hoax/
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...ry?id=57141612

    So ABC News is misquoting Trump saying there were good people on both sides of the Charlottesville incident?? Did they also make up the video of him saying that?

  3. #103

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...ry?id=57141612

    So ABC News is misquoting Trump saying there were good people on both sides of the Charlottesville incident?? Did they also make up the video of him saying that?
    I'm not sure who made it up, but you are in fact repeating a lie. He never called white supremacist good people, quite the opposite actually if you read the transcript. He essentially placed blame on the bad elements of both sides, which is probably a fair assessment if you ask me. If you have two groups showing up for a fight, and a fight ensues, what am I to think?

  4. #104

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    "But you had very fine people on both sides". Really? Very fine white supremists and or Nazi's? No surprise that a year later the apologists for this poor example of a human, let alone President are out in force.

    https://www.factcheck.org/2017/08/vi...e-revisionism/

  5. #105

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    "But you had very fine people on both sides". Really? Very fine white supremists and or Nazi's? No surprise that a year later the apologists for this poor example of a human, let alone President are out in force.
    I understand you are too lazy to go and find the transcript. And your ling doesn't really refute what I am saying either, but who's counting.

    He was talking about normal (non skin head types) protesting the removal of a civil war statue. He was actually extremely clear, however he was interrupted incessantly by a press corp that was doing their best to MAKE a story.

    Understanding how to read is not being an apologist. And ignorance is not a good reason to hate the president. At least put the words out there and prove me wrong before calling me an apologist.

  6. #106

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I understand you are too lazy to go and find the transcript. And your ling doesn't really refute what I am saying either, but who's counting.

    He was talking about normal (non skin head types) protesting the removal of a civil war statue. He was actually extremely clear, however he was interrupted incessantly by a press corp that was doing their best to MAKE a story.

    Understanding how to read is not being an apologist. And ignorance is not a good reason to hate the president. At least put the words out there and prove me wrong before calling me an apologist.
    And Rubio, Hatch, as well as David Duke got it wrong as well. Poor guy can never catch a break. Life is so unfair.
    And while he was chomping at the bit decrying the anti semitism of a congresswoman, i missed his blast of anti semitism chanting by the Tiki Torch parade.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/lawm...ry?id=49237327

  7. #107

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Blasting a late senator and war hero on two succesive days and threatening a tv show with a federal investigation are not the signs of a mentally stable individual.
    Article: Trump threatens 'Saturday Night Live' with federal investigation and charges comedy show as an 'an advertisement without consequences' for mocking him
    http://flip.it/HwBU3J

  8. #108

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    And Rubio, Hatch, as well as David Duke got it wrong as well. Poor guy can never catch a break. Life is so unfair.
    And while he was chomping at the bit decrying the anti semitism of a congresswoman, i missed his blast of anti semitism chanting by the Tiki Torch parade.

    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/lawm...ry?id=49237327
    I have some sand over here you can stick your head in. You're not going to be open minded and actually go and find the transcripts. It ain't hard.

    It would be one thing if he had said something in prepared remarks. This was far from that, and what he did say was not offensive in the least UNLESS those people commenting on Trumps remarks only got the info from the likes of ABC & Co. They would have been misguided. It's pretty amazing how fast a smear can travel really.

    Trump has a lot of problems. As much as he likes to blab, people, like yourself, still like putting words in his mouth. Stick to reality. Like I said, he has plenty of other issues, as every candidate seems to have.

  9. #109

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Blasting a late senator and war hero on two succesive days and threatening a tv show with a federal investigation are not the signs of a mentally stable individual.
    Article: Trump threatens 'Saturday Night Live' with federal investigation and charges comedy show as an 'an advertisement without consequences' for mocking him
    http://flip.it/HwBU3J
    Humor is lost on people out with a vengeance huh?

    Actually spying on reporters and silencing them isn't a problem. Joking on Twitter....UNSTABLE!!!!

  10. Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    This is a fair summary. I mean, it's hard to even comprehend how Manson came up with it, but that's what he claimed.

    But the equivalency you're making to the New Zealand terrorist attack is strange.

    Manson claimed his motivation to engineer mass murder was based on the idea that a song about going up and down a slide was a coded message for him to start a race war. (and really, it was more likely motivated by drug fueled vengeance towards a beach boys producer that snubbed Manson and used to live in the Tate / Polanski house where the first murders happened).

    The NZ terrorist reportedly engineered a mass killing motivated by anti-immigration and anti-Muslim ideas, according to those who have read his manifesto (I have not, and I'm not convinced I need to).

    So, basically, what we're working with is that The Beatles wrote a song about going up and down a slide. And then and a crazy person engineered mass murder to start a race war based on the idea that a song about a going up and down on a slide is about killing people to start a race war.

    And that, Trump, as The President of the United States, campaigned on, wrote about, and enacted policy initiatives aimed at curtailing immigrants and Muslims from entering America are justified by the idea that they are dangerous. And then a crazy person engineered mass murder because he thinks immigrants and Muslims are dangerous.

    What's amazing to me is that either of these things would be equivalent to anyone in any way, or, really, even compared.
    Thank you for explaining in a more eloquent and detailed manner than I did.

  11. #111

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by BDP View Post
    This is a fair summary. I mean, it's hard to even comprehend how Manson came up with it, but that's what he claimed.

    But the equivalency you're making to the New Zealand terrorist attack is strange.

    Manson claimed his motivation to engineer mass murder was based on the idea that a song about going up and down a slide was a coded message for him to start a race war. (and really, it was more likely motivated by drug fueled vengeance towards a beach boys producer that snubbed Manson and used to live in the Tate / Polanski house where the first murders happened).

    The NZ terrorist reportedly engineered a mass killing motivated by anti-immigration and anti-Muslim ideas, according to those who have read his manifesto (I have not, and I'm not convinced I need to).

    So, basically, what we're working with is that The Beatles wrote a song about going up and down a slide. And then and a crazy person engineered mass murder to start a race war based on the idea that a song about a going up and down on a slide is about killing people to start a race war.

    And that, Trump, as The President of the United States, campaigned on, wrote about, and enacted policy initiatives aimed at curtailing immigrants and Muslims from entering America are justified by the idea that they are dangerous. And then a crazy person engineered mass murder because he thinks immigrants and Muslims are dangerous.

    What's amazing to me is that either of these things would be equivalent to anyone in any way, or, really, even compared.
    Because they were both crazy. That's why they are equated to each other. They both took statements and writings that in no way call for violence, and perpetrated violence none the less in their names.

  12. #112

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...ry?id=57141612

    So ABC News is misquoting Trump saying there were good people on both sides of the Charlottesville incident?? Did they also make up the video of him saying that?
    How naive and gullible of you to believe ABC is being honest and it’s called editing to mislead and deceive...

    This is the quote in context and a link from politico of the full transcript of what was said...

    ‘’REPORTER: You said there was hatred and violence on both sides?

    TRUMP: I do think there is blame – yes, I think there is blame on both sides. You look at, you look at both sides. I think there’s blame on both sides, and I have no doubt about it, and you don't have any doubt about it either. And, and, and, and if you reported it accurately, you would say.

    REPORTER: The neo-Nazis started this thing. They showed up in Charlottesville.

    TRUMP: Excuse me, they didn't put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down, of to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

    REPORTER: George Washington and Robert E. Lee are not the same.

    TRUMP: Oh no, George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down – excuse me. Are we going to take down, are we going to take down statues to George Washington? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him? Okay, good. Are we going to take down his statue? He was a major slave owner. Are we going to take down his statue? You know what? It’s fine, you’re changing history, you’re changing culture, and you had people – and I'm not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally – but you had many people in that group other than neo-Nazis and white nationalists, okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, in the other group also, you had some fine people, but you also had troublemakers and you see them come with the black outfits and with the helmets and with the baseball bats – you had a lot of bad people in the other group too.

    REPORTER: I just didn’t understand what you were saying. You were saying the press has treated white nationalists unfairly?

    TRUMP: No, no. There were people in that rally, and I looked the night before. If you look, they were people protesting very quietly, the taking down the statue of Robert E. Lee. I’m sure in that group there were some bad ones. The following day, it looked like they had some rough, bad people, neo-Nazis, white nationalists, whatever you want to call ‘em. But you had a lot of people in that group that were there to innocently protest and very legally protest, because you know, I don't know if you know, but they had a permit. The other group didn't have a permit. So I only tell you this: there are two sides to a story. I thought what took place was a horrible moment for our country, a horrible moment. But there are two sides to the country. Does anybody have a final – does anybody have a final question? You have an infrastructure question.’’

    https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...nscript-241662

  13. #113

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    "Very fine people on both sides."

    Let me suggest that when you go to protest something and neo-Nazis appear to rally in support of what you're there for, you might reconsider your support for that measure or at least you go home. Further, if you stand in solidarity with Nazis and KKK members, you aren't in the right.

  14. #114

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Well, I'll try to get this thread back on track.

    What do we think about Gillibrand? I just don't see much of a candidacy in her. Where can she establish a coalition? I don't see the Sanderistas falling in line behind her, and it seems like she would remind too many potential voters of Hillary Clinton. Sure, she's a vastly different candidate, but most people will make that association even if it's patently incorrect.

  15. #115

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    Keep in mind these are people who bought into fake Russia and some still cling today.

    The leftist debates will be fun to see how far left they can go.
    now, now, now... OKC Guy... this would be deflecting from the conversation at hand... and we all know you are against deflecting.

  16. #116

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I'm not sure who made it up, but you are in fact repeating a lie. He never called white supremacist good people, quite the opposite actually if you read the transcript. He essentially placed blame on the bad elements of both sides, which is probably a fair assessment if you ask me. If you have two groups showing up for a fight, and a fight ensues, what am I to think?
    this is correct, his exact words have been adjusted when talked about later. he says that "we condemned in the strongest possible terms, this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence... on many sides."

    that is the exact quote. he didn't say they were good people, he said the exact opposite, that there are bad people on every side.

    on another note... while re watching that video interview of the Veterans Affairs Act, i completely forgot that he still felt the need to bring up the state of the economy, the unemployment rate, and the Foxcon factory (that isn't going to happen)

  17. #117

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Quicker View Post
    I’m not sure what happened in your life growing up but your history of posts makes it seem that you’re paranoid about about a religious zealot hiding behind every bush...but that’s just part of your delusion of painting all Republicans, conservatives and even centrist with the same broad demonizing brush... If we prefer Trump over the socialists on the left, we have to be dim witted, racist, homophobe ‘’worshipers of Trump’’...
    I grew up in an Independent Fundamental Baptist family and my father is a pastor. I fear the Christian Right because I was groomed in that culture. I know first-hand the society they want and to see Trump and Pence actually making it happen or at least pushing us closer to that, quite frankly it frightens me. What frightens me even moreso is that around 40% of Americans are willing to tolerate or even cheer on the destruction of our institutions and all the other despicable acts of this administration all because they are getting their anti-abortion and anti-gay judges.

    I do realize that not all Republicans can be painted with the same brush and different people have different reasons for voting the way they do, but right now, social conservatism and anti-intellectualism are carrying the day. The moderates have all been pushed out. Trump would not still be so popular if that wasn't the case. Today's GOP is a far-right party and Trump is a far-right President.

    There's also the "revenge" aspect to this. People love Trump no matter what because he "triggers" the right people. All of the people the right-wing hates; the media, academia, environmentalists/the "green" crowd, atheists, gays, non-Christians, trans people, ethnic minorities, coastal elites, etc all despise Trump. Meanwhile "real Americans" eg. white straight conservative Christians mostly support him. Trump supporters would rather continue backing a sleazy lying conman who is destroying everything this country ever has stood for rather than giving even an inch to the "demonic" Left.

    One of my favorite quotes is this one by Barry Goldwater and it is very relevant to our political situation today and really the past 30-40 years.

    "Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them." - Barry Goldwater

    I have a VERY big problem with somebody like Donald Trump and today's GOP believing their agenda is endorsed by God. Though I know longer believe I do know the Bible and Trump is probably the least-Christlike person I can think of and so is his agenda. God is not white and Jesus wasn't a Republican. I don't think we'll be able to fix our politics in this country until we can get religion out of politics. The founders set up separation of church and state (yes, I know that phrase is kind of a dirty word to Republicans) to prevent the kind of thing we are seeing today.

    Also, the fact that you use the terms "silent majority" and believe AOC to be the leader of the Democratic Party tells me that you primarily get your news from Fox/AM radio and that you are part of Trump's core base. You probably wouldn't consider voting for any Democrat under any circumstances. I may be wrong though.

  18. #118

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Hey OKC Talker, when your guy gets 2.8 million fewer votes than your opponent, you aren't a majority. Silent or otherwise.

  19. #119

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    "But you had very fine people on both sides". Really? Very fine white supremists and or Nazi's? No surprise that a year later the apologists for this poor example of a human, let alone President are out in force.

    https://www.factcheck.org/2017/08/vi...e-revisionism/
    Oh come on JB, I'm not trying to defend Trump for some utterly stupid language in his response but he is clearly stating that not everyone at the Charlottesville rally were white supremacists. There were a lot of people there who simply thought it was a rally to "unite the right" without knowing who the organizers were. Trump should have said what he said in an entirely different way and I hold him to blame for not doing this. He took a lot of guff for this but he's not the only President to use poor language. I seem to remember a certain President Obama saying critical things against the actions of police when the investigations showed the police were justified in their actions. These words only threw gasoline on the fire of racial tensions and, to me, is really a key reason his administration was a failure.

  20. #120

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Hey OKC Talker, when your guy gets 2.8 million fewer votes than your opponent, you aren't a majority. Silent or otherwise.
    Wow, we're still complaining about Representative Democracy?

  21. #121

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck5815 View Post
    Wow, we're still complaining about Representative Democracy?
    yep... this is where so many people lose me...

  22. #122

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    No complaining about so called representative federal republic. More a comment on what a majority is as compared to what a minority is. The respose was to the term "silent majority" and what that constitutes. You wanna talk your way into redefining majority? There is not even a silent plurality. Geez.

  23. #123

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    No complaining about so called representative federal republic. More a comment on what a majority is as compared to what a minority is. The respose was to the term "silent majority" and what that constitutes. You wanna talk your way into redefining majority? There is not even a silent plurality. Geez.
    Whether misguided as to the size or not, the term "silent majority" is a population that really can't be measured, because they are electively silent (they don't or didn't vote) because of dissatisfaction with both parties. So the majorities you are talking about are really not material in the discussion.

    And I think those clamoring for national popular vote should be prepared to realize they may not fully understand the electorate. You know how a bunch of people in OK don't vote because you know your vote was going to go for someone like Trump, well, there are potentially a LOT more of these in places like California and New York.

  24. #124

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    I swear this is not The Onion, but yes it is sourced from Fox news, but considering the topic it seems appropriate.

    Donna Brazile: Why I am excited to join Fox News and take part in a civil - and sensible - debate

    I figure this only hardens the DNC's resolve not to have a debate on Fox, especially if Bernie has anything to say about it.

    In related news...

    MySpace lost 12 years of music and photos, leaving a sizable gap in social network history

    I have to figure that in some way this will help Beto.
    Last edited by Eric; 03-18-2019 at 06:48 PM. Reason: Fixed link

  25. #125

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Because they were both crazy. That's why they are equated to each other. They both took statements and writings that in no way call for violence, and perpetrated violence none the less in their names.
    OK. For the record, though, I don't think that the NZ terrorist did it in Trump's name. He just felt justified by some of the same sentiments and language that Trump has expressed. And I wasn't trying to imply that I think Trump has made a call for violence by rogue madmen against immigrants or Muslims and this guy was just carrying out Trump's directive. I just didn't get the idea that Manson's claimed reading of The Beatles song about a slide was the same as the NZ killer's reading of messages by Trump on immigration and Muslims.

    Yes, both are deranged people who engineered mass murder. But, in context of parsing their stated motivations, the equivalency didn't make sense to me.

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