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  1. #726

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    What are Christians being forced to do against their will at every turn? What are the punishments for these persecuted Christians who refuse to do these things?
    lol, this isn't hard stuff my man: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/13-354

    and that's really just the tip of the iceberg. or the Ginsburg, if you will.

  2. #727

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    There has never been an “attack on Christianity” by any political party in the history of the United States.
    Are you claiming specifically no political party, specifically, or no political party platform or governmental action?

  3. #728

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    What are Christians being forced to do against their will at every turn? What are the punishments for these persecuted Christians who refuse to do these things?
    If you bake cakes or sell home nick nacks, or the rest of the population?

  4. #729

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    Are you claiming specifically no political party, specifically, or no political party platform or governmental action?
    All of the above

  5. #730

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by chuck5815 View Post
    lol, this isn't hard stuff my man: https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/13-354

    and that's really just the tip of the iceberg. or the Ginsburg, if you will.
    You are actually equating the Hobby Lobby case to Christians being attacked and or persecuted by Democrats.

  6. #731

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    If you bake cakes or sell home nick nacks, or the rest of the population?
    You do realize the vast majority of Democrats are Christian right?
    Are they attacking themselves or how does that work?

    1 Christian telling 2 gay Christians that he wont make a cake for them. Then another group of Christians says he has to followed by outrage from more Christians. And somehow Christians are being bullied.

    Just like Obama (a Christian) was being mean to conservative Christians and therefor Christianity is under attack because the Christian President hates Christians... or something like that.

    I guess everyone just loves playing the victim nowadays.

  7. #732

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    You are actually equating the Hobby Lobby case to Christians being attacked and or persecuted by Democrats.
    Forcing religious individuals to purchase a particular product, at regulatory gun point, that happens to violate their closely held religious beliefs is an attack. Definitely thought you were smarter than this.

  8. #733

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    You do realize the vast majority of Democrats are Christian right?
    Are they attacking themselves or how does that work?

    1 Christian telling 2 gay Christians that he wont make a cake for them. Then another group of Christians says he has to followed by outrage from more Christians. And somehow Christians are being bullied.

    Just like Obama (a Christian) was being mean to conservative Christians and therefor Christianity is under attack because the Christian President hates Christians... or something like that.

    I guess everyone just loves playing the victim nowadays.
    If a Christian clubs a Christian, does that mean it didn't happen?

  9. #734

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    You are actually equating the Hobby Lobby case to Christians being attacked and or persecuted by Democrats.
    Exactly.

  10. #735

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    If a Christian clubs a Christian, does that mean it didn't happen?
    Its been a while since i took algebra but yes, I believe they would cancel each other out.

  11. #736

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    You do realize the vast majority of Democrats are Christian right?
    Are they attacking themselves or how does that work?

    1 Christian telling 2 gay Christians that he wont make a cake for them. Then another group of Christians says he has to followed by outrage from more Christians. And somehow Christians are being bullied.

    Just like Obama (a Christian) was being mean to conservative Christians and therefor Christianity is under attack because the Christian President hates Christians... or something like that.

    I guess everyone just loves playing the victim nowadays.
    1. Even up to today, this baker, his business and his family have been subject to almost daily protests, graffiti and other vandalism to his home and business, and abuse from people who want him ruined and his family tortured. The State has humiliated him, cast him as a POS bigot and ordered him to undergo sensitivity training. The State`s original order and his defense of his principles have cost him a fortune.

    Both the original lawsuit and a second one brought up by a transvestite lawyer were intentional incidents. Both know this baker is a devout Christian and intended to damage him from the start. There are dozens of other bakers who could have done the work but they wanted to cause an incident with this one.

    This wasn't an isolated single case. despite the SCOTUS ruling, the transvestite lawyer is intent on continuing the harrassment to damage his business and family. The hostility from activists and the State have only been slowed because he filed a counter-suit prohibiting any more actions already covered by the SCOTUS ruling.

    There is also an identical case against an Oregon florist for identical reasons again, despite the SCOTUS ruling.

    How about the required SCOTUS ruling in favor of Hobby Lobby for refusing to pay for birth control in their health plan.

    There are numerous examples of discrimination against Christians on college campuses.

    I love how you demand examples then when you get them, you belittle them. Sounds like Christianphobia?

  12. #737

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    There has never been an “attack on Christianity” by any political party in the history of the United States.
    Fundamentalist Christians interpret challenges to their authority as being "persecution" when it really isn't. If somebody, somewhere is doing something they don't like, that's oppression to them.

    There was pushback against Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and their entire cohort during the 1990s but that wasn't persecution against Christians. That was people who don't share their ideology standing up for themselves. As hard as it is for Republicans to accept, we have something called separation of church and state in this country. Fundamentalist Christians can't (or at least shouldn't) be able to legally force everyone else to obey their religious rules.

  13. #738

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Fundamentalist Christians interpret challenges to their authority as being "persecution" when it really isn't. If somebody, somewhere is doing something they don't like, that's oppression to them.

    There was pushback against Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and their entire cohort during the 1990s but that wasn't persecution against Christians. That was people who don't share their ideology standing up for themselves. As hard as it is for Republicans to accept, we have something called separation of church and state in this country. Fundamentalist Christians can't (or at least shouldn't) be able to legally force everyone else to obey their religious rules.
    First, no snark intended, can you tell us how it is you know this is how Fundamentalist Christians think?

    Other than abortion, which isn't a religious issue, I don't recall any fundamentalist organizations demanding everyone be forced, legally, to live by their rules. Sure fundamentalists witness their faith, that's part of the directives of the faith, and sure, fundamentalists lay judgement on acts, actions or lifestyles, but lve never seen any put another person in a choke-hold, hog-tie or lawsuit to force others, legally or physically, to live their way.

    I do see the left forcing FCs to stop practicing their faith and their beliefs, however.

    I'm probably wrong. I'm sure someone will find some cases.

    You are talking about 20 - 30 year old history when you bring up the goof televangelists. We are talking about today and cases where fundamentalist beliefs are being forced down by leftist government. These are not cases where a baker or a florist or a company are trying to force their beliefs on anyone. In fact it's the left forcing non-religious actions upon Christians that violate their faith. In the case of Hobby Lobby, it wouldn't even have to be a religious belief but simply a belief that life starts at conception and the provision of birth control equates to murder.

  14. #739

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    First, no snark intended, can you tell us how it is you know this is how Fundamentalist Christians think?
    I grew up in the Independent Fundamental Baptist churches in Oklahoma and my father is an assistant pastor. I went to Southwest Baptist Church as a teenager. I have a long history with Christian fundamentalism that goes as far as gay-to-straight conversion therapy. I know it well.

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    Other than abortion, which isn't a religious issue, I don't recall any fundamentalist organizations demanding everyone be forced, legally, to live by their rules. Sure fundamentalists witness their faith, that's part of the directives of the faith, and sure, fundamentalists lay judgement on acts, actions or lifestyles, but lve never seen any put another person in a choke-hold, hog-tie or lawsuit to force others, legally or physically, to live their way.
    Abortion is a religious issue, especially if you support a total ban under all circumstances. In fact it was a particularly Catholic issue until Jerry Falwell made it an evangelical issue to help Reagan with the 1980 election. You can try to act like it isn't a religious issue but that isn't true. When I was a believer I used to make the exact same argument, thinking it was convincing to the secular world.

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    I do see the left forcing FCs to stop practicing their faith and their beliefs, however.
    It seems like these days, the only thing "practicing their faith" means to fundamentalist Christians is using it as a weapon against the people they hate. In states that have sexual orientation as a protected class, refusing service to gay people is no different legally than refusing service to black people or refusing service to Christians. It all would be illegal. Right-wing media has milked these same cases, one in Colorado and the other in Oregon for years. I think that's somewhat of an indication of how big of a "problem" it actually is. On another note, my guess is you probably think Amazon should be forced to sell the gay-to-straight therapy books they recently removed.

  15. #740

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Fundamentalist Christians interpret challenges to their authority as being "persecution" when it really isn't. If somebody, somewhere is doing something they don't like, that's oppression to them.

    There was pushback against Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and their entire cohort during the 1990s but that wasn't persecution against Christians. That was people who don't share their ideology standing up for themselves. As hard as it is for Republicans to accept, we have something called separation of church and state in this country. Fundamentalist Christians can't (or at least shouldn't) be able to legally force everyone else to obey their religious rules.
    Being sued multiple times because you won't do what someone else wants you to do is an attack, not a challenge to authority no matter how you spin it.

  16. #741

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Regardless of bchris02's opinion, abortion still isn't a religious issue. Humanity exists regardless in spite of religion.

  17. #742

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Regardless of bchris02's opinion, abortion still isn't a religious issue. Humanity exists regardless in spite of religion.
    If you believe that abortion should be banned in all cases from the moment of conception, that definitely is a religious issue. Science doesn't support that. It's a bit muddier when discussing latter-term abortions.

    Regardless of any of that, conservatives these days don't even bat an eye at the plight of the children at the border or who are impoverished in this country. The abortion issue is really more about controlling women and promoting purity culture than it is about life.

    The Republican Party should adopt a new slogan: Government small enough to fit into your bedroom and into your uterus.

  18. #743

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    If you believe that abortion should be banned in all cases from the moment of conception, that definitely is a religious issue. Science doesn't support that. It's a bit muddier when discussing latter-term abortions.

    Regardless of any of that, conservatives these days don't even bat an eye at the plight of the children at the border or who are impoverished in this country. The abortion issue is really more about controlling women and promoting purity culture than it is about life.

    The Republican Party should adopt a new slogan: Government small enough to fit into your bedroom and into your uterus.
    What "science" doesn't support this?

    Just FYI, "science" supported a LOT of eugenics programs.

  19. #744

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    If you believe that abortion should be banned in all cases from the moment of conception, that definitely is a religious issue. Science doesn't support that. It's a bit muddier when discussing latter-term abortions.

    Regardless of any of that, conservatives these days don't even bat an eye at the plight of the children at the border or who are impoverished in this country. The abortion issue is really more about controlling women and promoting purity culture than it is about life.

    The Republican Party should adopt a new slogan: Government small enough to fit into your bedroom and into your uterus.

    you really have 0 idea about the republican party

  20. #745

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    I do find it ironic that this conversation started with conservatives being offended that someone would suggest that conservatives are controlled by their fundamentalist religion, and then it quickly devolved into conservatives yelling about gay wedding cakes and birth control is abortion. Good times.

  21. #746

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    you really have 0 idea about the republican party
    Other than the fact that I voted exclusively Republican for 28 years of my life. I was raised on Fox News and was part of a Baptist denomination in which politics was a regular, reoccurring topic from the pulpit. I listened to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, and Laura Ingraham at various points in my life. I never voted for Obama. Held my nose and didn't vote for President at all in 2016. I know all about the Republican Party and how in their anger and disgust about the supposed moral decline of our society they became morally bankrupt themselves. Anybody preaching "Christian values" while praising Donald Trump is nothing but a hypocrite and should not be taken seriously.

  22. #747

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by GoGators View Post
    I do find it ironic that this conversation started with conservatives being offended that someone would suggest that conservatives are controlled by their fundamentalist religion, and then it quickly devolved into conservatives yelling about gay wedding cakes and birth control is abortion. Good times.
    Yelling, or pointing out the attacks? See what you want to see I suppose.

  23. #748

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Other than the fact that I voted exclusively Republican for 28 years of my life. I was raised on Fox News and was part of a Baptist denomination in which politics was a regular, reoccurring topic from the pulpit. I listened to Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, and Laura Ingraham at various points in my life. I never voted for Obama. Held my nose and didn't vote for President at all in 2016. I know all about the Republican Party and how in their anger and disgust about the supposed moral decline of our society they became morally bankrupt themselves. Anybody preaching "Christian values" while praising Donald Trump is nothing but a hypocrite and should not be taken seriously.
    So you flock to the Democrat party because you are tired of the anger and morally bankrupt individuals?

    OK then.

  24. #749

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    So you flock to the Democrat party because you are tired of the anger and morally bankrupt individuals?

    OK then.
    Yes. Morality is so much more than somebody's position on abortion and homosexuality. Republicans today have forgotten that. I've always leaned towards the Democrats on a number of issues and in 2017 I lost my Christian faith, so I am no longer required to vote Republican. I'm free to consider the entirety of the parties' platforms and vote accordingly. I'm a Democrat because I support civil rights for all, separation of church and state, healthcare for all, a living wage, preserving the environment, and education based on science and facts.

    Even if I was still a believer though I could never support Trump. The guy is closer to the AntiChrist than a man of God.

  25. #750

    Default Re: 2020 Presidential Race

    Quote Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
    Yes. Morality is so much more than somebody's position on abortion and homosexuality. Republicans today have forgotten that. I've always leaned towards the Democrats on a number of issues and in 2017 I lost my Christian faith, so I am no longer required to vote Republican. I'm free to consider the entirety of the parties' platforms and vote accordingly. I'm a Democrat because I support civil rights for all, separation of church and state, healthcare for all, a living wage, preserving the environment, and education based on science and facts.
    Maybe you should look into that "science" stuff instead of just believing what you are told.

    It seems to me you just have new masters now. I mean if you are hear touting civil rights for all as somehow a one sided position, then you aren't thinking for yourself.

    All the rest of that crap is anti-civil rights. Healthcare & living wage for all demands the rights of others be stripped in order to get those things.

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