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  1. #326

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    He is a real Cherokee and you saying otherwise reflects more on you than anything else. It's offensive.
    Offensive to whom? What was reported was that he had one relative who was put on the rolls by an advocate who was convicted of fraud. The tribe wanted to remove said relative but was overruled by the federal government. I would think that the feds overruling the actual tribe is what is offensive.

  2. #327

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    This. I will announce up front that I am biased. I have absolutely no love lost for gambling. I think it is predatory and preys on human frailties. And rewards those who play unfair games with the public where the establishment owners always have the upper hand.

    I'm not advocating for it's banishment, but I will never give them the benefit of the doubt in any argument. I am biased.
    This is an honest and non-argumentative question: do you have a moral or church based objection to casino gambling?

  3. #328

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    This is an honest and non-argumentative question: do you have a moral or church based objection to casino gambling?
    No religious based objection. Obviously it is my own moral objection, which I understand is subjective. But if I don't have morals myself, what have I? I have not suffered personally either having only gambled on a cruise ship and lost $20. But I've seen what it has done to families. Families of little means to begin with. It dangles hope when their really is none. Same with the lotto. It is in my estimation immoral.

  4. #329

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    I would counter that I am surprised that the "low taxes drive strong economic growth" group do not acknowledge that the lowest gaming tax state is Nevada (roughly equal to Oklahoma at 6%). And the success of those low taxes in driving the explosive Las Vegas growth over the last half century is a textbook example, which is being followed by Oklahoma tribes almost to the letter. And the Oklahoma casinos are an incredible success story because of those low taxes. Low tax Native American Casino profits are being reinvested in Oklahoma through brick and mortar expansion, local hiring, local purchasing, and service expansion into other entertainment ventures which make them attractive to more people for more reasons.

    Oklahoma tribes have taken control of their management and operations, Profit does not go to Las Vegas, like it does in Kansas, Colorado and other neighboring states.
    John Gotti was loved by his community as well. Just saying.

  5. #330

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    The gaming and gambling $$$ has caught the eye of the our Governor who believes the state isn't getting its fair share. Governor Stitt has chose to put himself in the middle of this situation.

    He should have gone to the tribes and worked with them about the compact. Instead he chose to take a bold approach in giving his own interpretation of the compact.

    Let's not forget about all the other benefits the tribes have provided thru its casinos. Stitt wants to be this bold leader who demands actions and thinks he is going to bully the tribes--they have news for him, stay tuned...

  6. #331

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    No religious based objection. Obviously it is my own moral objection, which I understand is subjective. But if I don't have morals myself, what have I? I have not suffered personally either having only gambled on a cruise ship and lost $20. But I've seen what it has done to families. Families of little means to begin with. It dangles hope when their really is none. Same with the lotto. It is in my estimation immoral.
    I am a Southern Baptist and I believe in The Lord Jesus Christ. I have a libertarian bent. I do not know who preys on whom, but I think there will always be poor people and always be stupid people. And I think there will always be people who engage in more self destructive behavior than others. I think problem gambling is a self destructive behavior pattern, and people who engage in it will engage in other self destructive behaviors. And if those behaviors are banned, then they will find extra motivation in chasing them in defiance of the rules.

  7. #332

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Offensive to whom? What was reported was that he had one relative who was put on the rolls by an advocate who was convicted of fraud. The tribe wanted to remove said relative but was overruled by the federal government. I would think that the feds overruling the actual tribe is what is offensive.
    I think the slavery issue adds to the complexity of membership for the Cherokee and other slave owning tribes. I have a tiny amount of knowledge, but I recall that the US government made the tribes add their slaves as members after the Civil War. Left the tribes with people who did not have Indian blood, but no other societal affiliation.

  8. #333

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    I am a Southern Baptist and I believe in The Lord Jesus Christ. I have a libertarian bent. I do not know who preys on whom, but I think there will always be poor people and always be stupid people. And I think there will always be people who engage in more self destructive behavior than others. I think problem gambling is a self destructive behavior pattern, and people who engage in it will engage in other self destructive behaviors. And if those behaviors are banned, then they will find extra motivation in chasing them in defiance of the rules.
    Agree Dob, that's what happens when people chase these dreams of fortune by gambling with their house payment or rent money.

    My mother warned me about gambling; she referred to it as the devil's collection plate.

  9. #334

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    I would counter that I am surprised that the "low taxes drive strong economic growth" group do not acknowledge that the lowest gaming tax state is Nevada (roughly equal to Oklahoma at 6%). And the success of those low taxes in driving the explosive Las Vegas growth over the last half century is a textbook example, which is being followed by Oklahoma tribes almost to the letter. And the Oklahoma casinos are an incredible success story because of those low taxes. Low tax Native American Casino profits are being reinvested in Oklahoma through brick and mortar expansion, local hiring, local purchasing, and service expansion into other entertainment ventures which make them attractive to more people for more reasons.

    Oklahoma tribes have taken control of their management and operations, Profit does not go to Las Vegas, like it does in Kansas, Colorado and other neighboring states.
    Man the right wing cons always bring up the increased taxes that were assessed to O&G and scream foul!
    The truth of the matter is that in 1971 the GPT was raised to 7.085% and lowered several times in the 90's, 00's, and 010's and then raised last year after Hamm and Co. were screaming and kicking. Still less than 7.085%. How many times has the exclusivity fee been lowered?
    The tribes gave the horse industry and by extension the State ,OKC, a bone when they waived the exclusivity for casinos to operate at horse tracks.
    To claim "other states get more" is inconclusive without comparing what the tribes give in the way of hospitals being constructed, roads, and other giveaways that they are not obligated to provide.
    Sure let's be fair. First though provide all the data in everything the tribes here and elsewhere contribute to the state as well. Stitt can't complain about state X gets $ from their tribes and we get far less. It is up to the Governor to make his case.

  10. #335

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    John Gotti was loved by his community as well. Just saying.
    So was Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert , and countless others of the same scam. Just sayin'. Just think how much false hope was given to the infirm and elderly if they would just kick a ten or a twenty to a huckster who claimed it was for "the lord"or some such. Immoral is as immoral does.

  11. #336

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Offensive to whom? What was reported was that he had one relative who was put on the rolls by an advocate who was convicted of fraud. The tribe wanted to remove said relative but was overruled by the federal government. I would think that the feds overruling the actual tribe is what is offensive.
    That's unsubstantiated, but regardless, the tribe recognizes him as one. Declaring him a fake Indian? Why not call someone an uncle Tom, or not gay enough?

  12. #337

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    That's unsubstantiated, but regardless, the tribe recognizes him as one. Declaring him a fake Indian? Why not call someone an uncle Tom, or not gay enough?
    It is debatable whether or not it is "unsubstantiated ". The article offers substantial information. The Governor just claims unsubstantiated w/o offering anything else. I don't care to get into those other deragotory terms to defend my post as it offers nothing.
    The tribe recognizes him because apparently the Federal government and not the tribe was the final arbiter.

  13. #338

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    It is debatable whether or not it is "unsubstantiated ". The article offers substantial information. The Governor just claims unsubstantiated w/o offering anything else. I don't care to get into those other deragotory terms to defend my post as it offers nothing.
    The tribe recognizes him because apparently the Federal government and not the tribe was the final arbiter.
    Your post? Are you the shadow too? That editorializing was what I responded to.

    Regardless of some unofficial account by someone not representing the tribes, Stitt is a member of the tribe, and is therefore a Cherokee. Period. As for what supposedly happened in 1900, it's up to those making the accusation to prove the case. We don't know the details from 100+ years ago. Maybe Stitt does but it's none of our business.

    And there is a history of white folks declaring folks as not "real Indians". A pretty dark one. It made it easier to steal their land.

  14. #339

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Your post? Are you the shadow too?
    You lost me

  15. #340

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    You lost me
    " I don't care to get into those other deragotory terms to defend my post "

    What post are you defending? I only responded to a post by the shadow and then replied to you about it when you commented.

  16. #341

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Last sentence in post #336 which I understood to be a reply to me. No?

  17. #342

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    He is a real Cherokee ...
    The tribal documents claim that Dawson pretended to be a Cherokee and bribed Cherokee commissioners (that part *may* be unsubstantiated, but we'd probably have to see the original documents or other sources, not just the NYT story), and it turns out Stitt has no Cherokee ancestry (true), so Dawson most likely didn't either. And the lawyer who assisted Dawson was convicted and imprisoned for fraud (true), and when the Cherokee Nation's lawyers tried to remove them because of the above, the feds wouldn't let them (true).

    So if he is indeed a Cherokee, the reason he can be called one (notice I didn't say "is" one) is under a pall of fraud, bribery, false pretenses (Dawson pretending to be Cherokee), and the federal government telling the Cherokee Nation to screw themselves for some reason (as has happened so many times in our history).

  18. #343

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Just to be clear, I don't object to the article or the posting of it. His geneology can be in doubt. But the editorializing and phrasing of him not being a "real" Cherokee is uncalled for.

  19. #344

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Last sentence in post #336 which I understood to be a reply to me. No?
    I was answering your question about why I found the post offensive.

  20. #345

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    and it turns out Stitt has no Cherokee ancestry (true)
    Huh? Where did you find this statement of fact? Or is an "if" missing?

  21. #346

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    So was Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggert , and countless others of the same scam. Just sayin'. Just think how much false hope was given to the infirm and elderly if they would just kick a ten or a twenty to a huckster who claimed it was for "the lord"or some such. Immoral is as immoral does.
    Thanks for reinforcing my point. A rare day.

  22. #347

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    Huh? Where did you find this statement of fact? Or is an "if" missing?
    OK, you got me. It says "Aside from Francis Dawson, Mr. Stitt has no documented Cherokee ancestry, according to David Cornsilk".

    Basically, there are two different problems here, "being a Cherokee" appears to have two different meanings. One is that you have Cherokee ancestry (which apparently doesn't make you a citizen of the Cherokee Nation - "Cherokee Nation citizenship is not based on race"), and the other being that you are a citizen of the Cherokee Nation (which you can apparently be even if you don't have Cherokee ancestry - "Cherokee Nation citizenship is not based on race").

    So does Dawson have Cherokee ancestry (implied, but not outright stated in the article), and does Stitt have Cherokee ancestry, being descended from Dawson? I don't think we have that information. And did Cherokee ancestry matter when it comes to tribal citizenship back in 1900?

    If Dawson was really a Cherokee (I don't know exactly what means was used back around 1900 to determine if you were a Cherokee (couldn't have been DNA), so that's another missing piece), then why did Cherokee Nation lawyers fight his citizenship, and why the accusations of fraud, bribery, and the feds intervening?

  23. #348

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    https://www.tulsaworld.com/news/lega...f483d59ea.html
    Oklahoma Attorney General Mike Hunter has been asked for a legal opinion about whether the state can put tribal gaming exclusivity fees in escrow pending the outcome of a federal lawsuit.
    Senate Appropriations Chairman Roger Thompson, R-Okemah, asked for the opinion.
    Thompson asked whether Gov. Kevin Stitt has the authority to escrow the funds remitted from the tribes and not deposit them in the 1017 Fund, which goes to education.
    Thompson said he believes the money can’t be put in escrow and must go to fund education.

  24. #349

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    OK, you got me. It says "Aside from Francis Dawson, Mr. Stitt has no documented Cherokee ancestry, according to David Cornsilk".

    Basically, there are two different problems here, "being a Cherokee" appears to have two different meanings. One is that you have Cherokee ancestry (which apparently doesn't make you a citizen of the Cherokee Nation - "Cherokee Nation citizenship is not based on race"), and the other being that you are a citizen of the Cherokee Nation (which you can apparently be even if you don't have Cherokee ancestry - "Cherokee Nation citizenship is not based on race").

    So does Dawson have Cherokee ancestry (implied, but not outright stated in the article), and does Stitt have Cherokee ancestry, being descended from Dawson? I don't think we have that information. And did Cherokee ancestry matter when it comes to tribal citizenship back in 1900?

    If Dawson was really a Cherokee (I don't know exactly what means was used back around 1900 to determine if you were a Cherokee (couldn't have been DNA), so that's another missing piece), then why did Cherokee Nation lawyers fight his citizenship, and why the accusations of fraud, bribery, and the feds intervening?
    What's confusing is that Stitt's great grandfather was on the rolls, but his name was Robert Dawson according to other stories - https://www.okhistory.org/research/d...ype=by%20Blood

  25. #350

    Default Re: Governor Stitt - Surprising Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Thanks for reinforcing my point. A rare day.
    Nothing debatable about the immorality of Gotti and the individuals I mentioned.

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