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  1. #151

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    That means the training in a 3rd world country (or even a developing country) is the same as here in the US (or other 1st world countries)? If so, then yes. But I doubt they have the access to the same training and expertise that US pilots do.
    What kind of question is that? I seriously don't even know how to answer that. You guys really think that Ethiopian Airlines and Air India (as an example) are putting pilots behind the controls of a 777 or A350 (or any modern jet!) that aren't qualified? Is that some kind of joke? How do you think airlines such as ET train their crews on flying the latest Airbus and Boeing jets? Does Boeing send some kind of stripped down 3rd world poor country simulator to them to train on? How do you think airlines in developing countries carry out maintenance? Do they not use the same manuals and protocols that Boeing and Airbus do? Or do they have a special poor country manual just for them? You think Boeing and Airbus are just selling hundreds of the newest jets to these airlines in developing countries, then providing zero support on how to actually fly and maintain them? The level of ignorance here is astounding to say the least. But not surprising actually. Not to mention that Ethiopian at least has many foreign pilots from Europe, India, etc. I'm sure European pilots would go fly for happily go fly for Ethiopian even if their safety standards weren't up to par, right?

  2. #152

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by no1cub17 View Post
    What kind of question is that? I seriously don't even know how to answer that. You guys really think that Ethiopian Airlines and Air India (as an example) are putting pilots behind the controls of a 777 or A350 (or any modern jet!) that aren't qualified? Is that some kind of joke? How do you think airlines such as ET train their crews on flying the latest Airbus and Boeing jets? Does Boeing send some kind of stripped down 3rd world poor country simulator to them to train on? How do you think airlines in developing countries carry out maintenance? Do they not use the same manuals and protocols that Boeing and Airbus do? Or do they have a special poor country manual just for them? You think Boeing and Airbus are just selling hundreds of the newest jets to these airlines in developing countries, then providing zero support on how to actually fly and maintain them? The level of ignorance here is astounding to say the least. But not surprising actually. Not to mention that Ethiopian at least has many foreign pilots from Europe, India, etc. I'm sure European pilots would go fly for happily go fly for Ethiopian even if their safety standards weren't up to par, right?
    And a Harvard degree means as much as a Cameron University degree? Not saying they aren't trained, or that they are bad pilots, but all things are not equal when comparing an AA or Delta pilot to an airline from a developing country, in terms of the quality of education and access to resources. You, nor anyone, will change my mind.

  3. #153

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    And a Harvard degree means as much as a Cameron University degree? Not saying they aren't trained, or that they are bad pilots, but all things are not equal when comparing an AA or Delta pilot to an airline from a developing country, in terms of the quality of education and access to resources. You, nor anyone, will change my mind.
    Obviously not - it's impossible to change a bigot's mind. It astounds me the ignorance that some of you live with. Just because something has the name "American" or "Delta" on it doesn't automatically make it superior to everything else. What the hell does the Harvard vs Cameron comparison have to do with anything? You either know how to fly or you don't. And you're making completely biased and bigoted assumptions by concluding that pilots from developing countries are inherently inferior to those from wealthier countries. You even admit that you know literally nothing about the training that pilots in Ethiopia, India, etc receive, yet here you are automatically assuming that well they're Ethiopian so what do they know. There is literally zero evidence behind that. So if you want to be an ignorant bigot, go right ahead, I'm not stopping you.

  4. #154

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    I think we can all take a step back for a minute. No reason to get heated. Let’s at least keep this thread civil.

  5. Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    folks, this is an issue with the new auto-pilot that Boeing is debuing in the MAX program. This is evidence by the fact that auto-pilot is switched on shortly after successful departure (hence the often seen change in engine speed one observes) and that the faulty planes both pitched up then down and again before crashing - indicating the pilots were not able to disengage autopilot to recover.

    This has nothing to do with 3rd world countries or airlines, this is a manufacturer and (possible) FAA certification issues; more evidence that less government is NOT always better. The FAA let Boeing self police this new autopilot. ........ Enough said.
    Oklahoma City, the RENAISSANCE CITY!

  6. #156

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    folks, this is an issue with the new auto-pilot that Boeing is debuing in the MAX program. This is evidence by the fact that auto-pilot is switched on shortly after successful departure (hence the often seen change in engine speed one observes) and that the faulty planes both pitched up then down and again before crashing - indicating the pilots were not able to disengage autopilot to recover.

    This has nothing to do with 3rd world countries or airlines, this is a manufacturer and (possible) FAA certification issues; more evidence that less government is NOT always better. The FAA let Boeing self police this new autopilot. ........ Enough said.
    Yup. It's weird right? If the ET and JT crashes were this easily chalked up to being from third world countries because this would never happen to us in big, bad America, then why is Boeing inviting pilots from AA/UA to test the software changes? It should be a complete non-issue for the US-based pilots, right? Seems to me like the 737 MAX is a fundamentally unstable plane, which is literally the opposite of what you want for a passenger aircraft.

  7. Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    I've heard fighter jets a couple times today

  8. Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by no1cub17 View Post
    Yup. It's weird right? If the ET and JT crashes were this easily chalked up to being from third world countries because this would never happen to us in big, bad America, then why is Boeing inviting pilots from AA/UA to test the software changes? It should be a complete non-issue for the US-based pilots, right? Seems to me like the 737 MAX is a fundamentally unstable plane, which is literally the opposite of what you want for a passenger aircraft.
    You keep taking such a huge offense to that but pilot error and over reliance on autopilot by third world pilots was a big part of it. Straight from a friend of mine that is fairly high up at AA... the pilots union knew about the autopilot glitch but their pilots knew how to easily avoid it due to the fact that US based pilots are better trained and are less reliant on autopilot/better able to handle adversity than foreign pilots. That is fact, not racism as you seem to be hell bent on claiming over and over again. It is harder to get a pilots license in the US, harder to get a commercial pilots license here, and US based airlines require more rigorous additional training than most foreign airlines do, especially those based out of third world countries.

  9. #159

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

    0700 departure OKC-YYZ
    2130 arrival YYZ-OKC

  10. #160

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

    0700 departure OKC-YYZ
    2130 arrival YYZ-OKC
    That's great news

  11. #161

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PhiAlpha View Post
    You keep taking such a huge offense to that but pilot error and over reliance on autopilot by third world pilots was a big part of it. Straight from a friend of mine that is fairly high up at AA... the pilots union knew about the autopilot glitch but their pilots knew how to easily avoid it due to the fact that US based pilots are better trained and are less reliant on autopilot/better able to handle adversity than foreign pilots. That is fact, not racism as you seem to be hell bent on claiming over and over again. It is harder to get a pilots license in the US, harder to get a commercial pilots license here, and US based airlines require more rigorous additional training than most foreign airlines do, especially those based out of third world countries.
    Hilarious - by that logic, France and South Korea must also be third world countries, right? US based pilots are better? Oh really? What happened to AA587? What happened to CO3407? What happened to DL5191? Must've been third world country pilots, right?

    You know literally nothing about the training standards in other countries, yet here you are passing judgment. Are there incompetent pilots abroad? But news flash, there have been many crashes caused by pilot error in the US too. Hard to believe but it's true.

  12. #162

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

    0700 departure OKC-YYZ
    2130 arrival YYZ-OKC
    April Fool?

    If not, this is quite a stunner!

  13. #163

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by catch22 View Post
    Effective Jun 4, Air Canada begins Toronto (YYZ). Showing a CR9.

    0700 departure OKC-YYZ
    2130 arrival YYZ-OKC
    if you had posted this ANY OTHER day, I would have believed you. Good one, Catch!

  14. Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by no1cub17 View Post
    Hilarious - by that logic, France and South Korea must also be third world countries, right? US based pilots are better? Oh really? What happened to AA587? What happened to CO3407? What happened to DL5191? Must've been third world country pilots, right?

    You know literally nothing about the training standards in other countries, yet here you are passing judgment. Are there incompetent pilots abroad? But news flash, there have been many crashes caused by pilot error in the US too. Hard to believe but it's true.
    Yep I know nothing...

  15. #165

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HOT ROD View Post
    folks, this is an issue with the new auto-pilot that Boeing is debuing in the MAX program. This is evidence by the fact that auto-pilot is switched on shortly after successful departure (hence the often seen change in engine speed one observes) and that the faulty planes both pitched up then down and again before crashing - indicating the pilots were not able to disengage autopilot to recover.
    MCAS has nothing to do with the autopilot. It is a system completely independent of the autopilot. It is designed to detect an abnormally high angle of attack (AOA) from a single AOA sensor - at low airspeed - and then pitch the nose down. Most worldwide flight crews werenít told about MCAS, much less trained in its use. The two accidents are - so far - being attributed to the failure of the single AOA sensor, so Boeing is reprogramming MCAS to require two AOA sensors working in general agreement. They are also providing training to all crews on the proper function of the system, and what to do if one fails. As pilots we are trained to understand every system on the aircraft, and what to do if it fails. Iíve had several system failures as a pilot, but because I knew the systems and workarounds, Iím still here. These guys were blindsided by a system that was unknown to them, and failed.

  16. Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    I saw an article the other day discussing hours required by the airlines and how the US requires many more hours before flying the big commercial airlines. I can't find that article but here is one similar.

    https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...230581371.html

  17. #167

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Not April Fool’s related:

    United trims the second mainline that was loaded this summer for Okc-DEN. I have a feeling this is for backfill coverage of the MAX routes. (Moving airplanes around to absorb the reduction of available frames).

  18. #168

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Pete, could we move all the flight safety/737 Max fighting to a politics thread? It's mostly not related to OKC Aviation.

  19. #169

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CloudDeckMedia View Post
    MCAS has nothing to do with the autopilot. It is a system completely independent of the autopilot. It is designed to detect an abnormally high angle of attack (AOA) from a single AOA sensor - at low airspeed - and then pitch the nose down. Most worldwide flight crews werenít told about MCAS, much less trained in its use. The two accidents are - so far - being attributed to the failure of the single AOA sensor, so Boeing is reprogramming MCAS to require two AOA sensors working in general agreement. They are also providing training to all crews on the proper function of the system, and what to do if one fails. As pilots we are trained to understand every system on the aircraft, and what to do if it fails. Iíve had several system failures as a pilot, but because I knew the systems and workarounds, Iím still here. These guys were blindsided by a system that was unknown to them, and failed.
    It wasn't even in the manual at the time of the Lion Air crash. Instead of just chalking it up to "well it's Indonesia", I wish posters would bother to spend one nanosecond actually learning about what may have happened, and that maybe it's not quite as simple as "well it's a poor country and not America so it's their fault and would never happen to us." But that's the political climate we're in these days, no surprise there.

  20. #170

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepnokc View Post
    I saw an article the other day discussing hours required by the airlines and how the US requires many more hours before flying the big commercial airlines. I can't find that article but here is one similar.

    https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...230581371.html
    While that may be true, the number of hours doesn't tell the whole story. Someone trained to fly in the military may well be much more qualified after 300 hours than a flight instructor that's spent 2000 flying Cessnas. I'd argue that it's much more challenging on a day to day basis to fly in India, Indonesia, or Ethiopia for a number of reasons. A pilot that can fly safely there can probably fly safely anywhere.

  21. #171

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Whether the pilot has 30,000 hours flying widebodies for an American legacy carrier or 500 hours flying Cessna Caravans in east Africa, if an unknown system takes control of the aircraft, there isn't much that can be done. You're in a deathmatch with a machine.

  22. Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by no1cub17 View Post
    While that may be true, the number of hours doesn't tell the whole story. Someone trained to fly in the military may well be much more qualified after 300 hours than a flight instructor that's spent 2000 flying Cessnas. I'd argue that it's much more challenging on a day to day basis to fly in India, Indonesia, or Ethiopia for a number of reasons. A pilot that can fly safely there can probably fly safely anywhere.
    Did you read the article? It said that in many cases, when Asian airlines contact US based flight schools about training newly hired pilots, their trip from their country of origin to the US is THEIR FIRST TIME IN AN AIRPLANE. In most cases we’re not talking about military pilots moving into the private sector, we’re talking about people who have never been on a plane before learning to fly large commercial planes. Many of these people come from places where they can’t afford general avaiation or where it is basically non-existent so if they didn’t have military experience, which again isn’t the type of person the article is talking about, these pilots first time on a plane was on the way to learn how to fly one. Pilots in the US generally need 1500 hours or more to qualify to fly commercial planes, and I’m pretty sure military flight time does count toward that.

    I don’t know why everything has to be turned into a bigotry issue. It’s common knowledge that US based pilots generally are better trained and have more experience than pilots abroad, especially in Asia and Africa. That isn’t being a racist or a bigot, that is stating fact. Hell, we went through almost a decade without a flight related death in the US until the southwest window issue last year. I looked into this deal quite a bit before commenting on it and Boeing definitely is at fault to a point, but the bottom line is that better trained pilots could’ve handled the situation better. Whether that was a failure of the airlines discussing MCAS with their pilots or lack of R&D on their part or it was Boeing’s fault for not discussing the new system with their foreign purchasers will be determined. US based pilots were aware of the issue and how to handle it and unfortunately, pilots in at least India and Ethiopia were not.

  23. #173

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by LakeEffect View Post
    Pete, could we move all the flight safety/737 Max fighting to a politics thread? It's mostly not related to OKC Aviation.
    A new thread in this Transpotation forum would be more appropriate. Politics forum is no more appropriate than Restaurants and Bars.

  24. Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Sorry to post about this again in this thread, but it looks like the Ethiopian pilots were trained correctly and followed the proper procedures.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ethio...b0ed0d780f0c3c

    "Boeing anti-stall software on a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jet re-engaged as many as four times after the crew initially turned it off due to suspect data from an airflow sensor, two people familiar with the matter said.

    It was not immediately clear whether the crew had chosen to re-deploy the system, which pushes the nose of the Boeing 737 MAX downwards, but one person with knowledge of the matter said investigators were studying the possibility that the software had kicked in again without human intervention.

    ...

    The investigation has now turned toward how MCAS was initially disabled by pilots following an emergency checklist procedure but then appeared to repeatedly start working again before the jet plunged to the ground, the people said.

    A directive issued after the Indonesian crash instructed pilots to use cut-out switches to disengage the system in the event of problems and leave it switched off.

    Doing so does not shut down the MCAS system completely but severs an electrical link between the software and aircraft systems, a person familiar with the technology said.

    Investigators are studying whether there are any conditions under which MCAS could re-activate itself automatically, without the pilots reversing the cut-out maneuver. Boeing is in the midst of upgrading the software while adding extra training."

  25. #175

    Default Re: 2019 Oklahoma City Aviation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Sorry to post about this again in this thread, but it looks like the Ethiopian pilots were trained correctly and followed the proper procedures.

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ethio...b0ed0d780f0c3c

    "Boeing anti-stall software on a doomed Ethiopian Airlines jet re-engaged as many as four times after the crew initially turned it off due to suspect data from an airflow sensor, two people familiar with the matter said.

    It was not immediately clear whether the crew had chosen to re-deploy the system, which pushes the nose of the Boeing 737 MAX downwards, but one person with knowledge of the matter said investigators were studying the possibility that the software had kicked in again without human intervention.

    ...

    The investigation has now turned toward how MCAS was initially disabled by pilots following an emergency checklist procedure but then appeared to repeatedly start working again before the jet plunged to the ground, the people said.

    A directive issued after the Indonesian crash instructed pilots to use cut-out switches to disengage the system in the event of problems and leave it switched off.

    Doing so does not shut down the MCAS system completely but severs an electrical link between the software and aircraft systems, a person familiar with the technology said.

    Investigators are studying whether there are any conditions under which MCAS could re-activate itself automatically, without the pilots reversing the cut-out maneuver. Boeing is in the midst of upgrading the software while adding extra training."
    Boom. Boeing has some 'splainin to do. This is assuming ET is telling the truth... which it seems they may not have been 100% forthcoming about their 2010 crash near Beirut ... but their Doro Wot is so damn good they get the benefit of the doubt from me. For now.

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