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  1. #26

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    So, are you saying a minor league team should start diminishing a NBA team? That makes no sense at all. False equivalency.
    how would any of those items diminished an NBA team? having a dedicated spot for merch sales? doesn't have to be the same or even and big of location as thunder have. having some branding in the arena? many arena's that have multiple tenants do this and it doesn't diminish anything for the anchor Tenant (have you been to the Spurs arena? they share with the San Antonio Rampage of the AHL, and the branding around the arena is about 6-1 infavor of the spurs, but the Rampage do have some branding in the arena, and no one has probably ever said that it is diminishing to the Spurts... and lastly, what is wrong with having multiple banner locations? this is done in many arenas throughout the country...

    no one said or even suggested the thunder had to take down all of it's branding of the arena, or had to take down their banners.... it's a matter of sharing some of the branding within the arena, and having all the banners displayed during events. and there is plenty of places that a small hockey specific merch store could have been put.

    not wanting to use an arena an extra 35 times a year is what makes no sense at all...

  2. #27

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    You could integrate the merchandise; sell both Thunder & ECHL (say Blazers) merchandise. The shops could use the same employees.

    You don't have this problem with the food concessions inside the arena, IIRC.

  3. #28

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Laramie View Post
    You could integrate the merchandise; sell both Thunder & ECHL (say Blazers) merchandise. The shops could use the same employees.

    You don't have this problem with the food concessions inside the arena, IIRC.
    agreed

  4. #29

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    They would prob. put the basketball court down over the ice with a barrier in between. Slick spots could occur from moisture below. Pretty sure I remember this happening in other arenas before. One slick spot taking out Adams would be a deal breaker.

  5. #30

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by OKCRT View Post
    They would prob. put the basketball court down over the ice with a barrier in between. Slick spots could occur from moisture below. Pretty sure I remember this happening in other arenas before. One slick spot taking out Adams would be a deal breaker.
    Yet, they have few to no problems in other arena across the country. Hell, LA went basketball-hockey-basketball-hockey in a span of 4 days. It's all about the Thunder wanting to hog the arena themselves.

  6. #31

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    I'm sure they do and I think they should. The Thunder have done more to change the international perception of Oklahoma City than any other effort. The NBA makes OKC a Big League City, pure and simple. An ECHL Team puts us with Scranton/Wilkes-Barre as a place that will sell 4,000 seats at $10 per. Great entertainment, but let's find them a different place to play.

  7. #32

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Nm

  8. #33

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    All the more reason to consider what is wanted in an arena at the fairgrounds. There should be an alternative arena for sports events tha t might interfere with the Thunder

  9. #34

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    On February 9, 2010, the American Hockey League Board of Governors approved of the relocation of the Oilers' inactive AHL franchise to Oklahoma City, after a five-year dormancy.[1]

    After the team's inaugural season in 2010–11, the Barons finished in the bottom five in the league for average attendance, including worst in the league in 2012–13.[8] On December 18, 2014, the Oilers and Barons announced that the Barons would cease operations after the current season citing continued financial losses stemming from poor attendance.[9]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Barons


    Imo Hockey is not long term stable. Thunder don’t want any fans to bleed off either. Thunder have been blessed with competitive teams but in future once Russ is done they liklely take a hit. If hockey were here in down Thunder years it could bleed some fans.

    Why risk it when hockey is the most unstable sport around. Teams are always on the move too.

    Blazers used to draw big crowds but that was our big game in town then. The 2010 itteration competed with Thunder and ended up with poor fan showings and moved on. Its too unstable to invest any tax dollars in, much rather be thinking ahead to preserve Thunder. We need a future Thunder “Peake” plan while the team is still doing good. If we need to replace in 2030-35 timelone its not too early to think ahead.

    Ironic how the original cost bid oversight (or undersight lol) meant it was built for $85m! The mods/upgrades cost more!

    Streetcar cost more than original Peake did (Ford Center then).

    Let Tulsa have hockey.

  10. #35
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    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    All the more reason to consider what is wanted in an arena at the fairgrounds. There should be an alternative arena for sports events tha t might interfere with the Thunder
    Yes!!! The Baron's weren't successful because the Blazers supporters still had a bad taste in their mouths from a successful Blazers vanishing overnight, the Barons really weren't promoted as good, and tickets went up about $5 across the board.

    ECHL in OKC would survive with the proper management. Like him or not, Lund was a genius with the Blazers, and knew how to keep interest and promote them. Let's build that arena at the state fair to handle a hockey team. Blazers played several games in the existing arena there and it worked.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    And thanks to those that dug up the videos above. Good memories of the Tulsa and Wichita rivalries.

  12. #37

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    I don't think the Thunder take a hit when Russ leaves. That is part of the game, players get older and younger ones take over. They will find a star when Russ starts showing age. People are too crazy about the Thunder to leave it. Look at the waiting list for season tickets! Also, there are many people that currently don't follow the Thunder simply because they don't care for basketball. Hockey is just another entertainment option that definitely could drum up a decent following in the city. It just has to have smart leadership.

  13. #38

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by PaddyShack View Post
    I don't think the Thunder take a hit when Russ leaves. That is part of the game, players get older and younger ones take over. They will find a star when Russ starts showing age. People are too crazy about the Thunder to leave it. Look at the waiting list for season tickets! Also, there are many people that currently don't follow the Thunder simply because they don't care for basketball. Hockey is just another entertainment option that definitely could drum up a decent following in the city. It just has to have smart leadership.
    When Thunder go a few years in tank mode fans will not buy as many tickets. It happens.

    Hockey has failed here over the decades. Fans donít support it fanatically enough over years to sell enough seats to sustain.

    I would rather continue to focus on the one pro sport we have and not muddy waters with hickey.

    I would be in support of soccer venue that can be used for other events. And fairgrounds is perfect location too. Close enough to downtown. Central to metro. Easy access with major Interstates. Could also hold HS playoffs/finals here. Host club soccer tourneys.

    Hockey has been tried and failed here why chase it again? I had fun going to Blazer games but the hockey ship has sailed imo

  14. #39

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    I'm sure they do and I think they should. The Thunder have done more to change the international perception of Oklahoma City than any other effort. The NBA makes OKC a Big League City, pure and simple. An ECHL Team puts us with Scranton/Wilkes-Barre as a place that will sell 4,000 seats at $10 per. Great entertainment, but let's find them a different place to play.
    because use of a facility and extra 35 times a year is always a bad idea. this is why cities don't re-coup money on the stadiums they build... one event at an arena does not bring down the level of the other events. or are you saying San Antonio isn't a Big League City because the Spurs share and arena with the AHL Rampage?

    this literally makes no sense... You are saying "Hey, i would rather have a stadium sit empty and unused most of the week, rather than let it say that entertainment in our city is sub-par"... but wouldn't having no event bring down that opinion even more than it being used for literally anything?

  15. #40

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    On February 9, 2010, the American Hockey League Board of Governors approved of the relocation of the Oilers' inactive AHL franchise to Oklahoma City, after a five-year dormancy.[1]

    After the team's inaugural season in 2010–11, the Barons finished in the bottom five in the league for average attendance, including worst in the league in 2012–13.[8] On December 18, 2014, the Oilers and Barons announced that the Barons would cease operations after the current season citing continued financial losses stemming from poor attendance.[9]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_Barons


    Imo Hockey is not long term stable. Thunder don’t want any fans to bleed off either. Thunder have been blessed with competitive teams but in future once Russ is done they liklely take a hit. If hockey were here in down Thunder years it could bleed some fans.

    Why risk it when hockey is the most unstable sport around. Teams are always on the move too.

    Blazers used to draw big crowds but that was our big game in town then. The 2010 itteration competed with Thunder and ended up with poor fan showings and moved on. Its too unstable to invest any tax dollars in, much rather be thinking ahead to preserve Thunder. We need a future Thunder “Peake” plan while the team is still doing good. If we need to replace in 2030-35 timelone its not too early to think ahead.

    Ironic how the original cost bid oversight (or undersight lol) meant it was built for $85m! The mods/upgrades cost more!

    Streetcar cost more than original Peake did (Ford Center then).

    Let Tulsa have hockey.
    the blazers drew big crowds because it was free entertainment... hell i remember walking up to the box office to try and purchase tickets, and they wouldn't let me, cause they had free ones to give away

    and what is the risk... i still don't understand how having hockey in the same arena affects the thunder in absolutely any way... does having WWE wrestling events affect the thunder? do concerts? Monster Truck? why do we let any events take place during the NBA season then????

    i'm literally at a loss for how this affects the thunder in anyways, except maybe make the court temperature slightly cooler ( a survey a few years ago showed that basketball courts over ice had an average temp of 63 degrees, rather than 72... but that was actual temp of the court itself

  16. #41

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by BLJR View Post
    Yes!!! The Baron's weren't successful because the Blazers supporters still had a bad taste in their mouths from a successful Blazers vanishing overnight, the Barons really weren't promoted as good, and tickets went up about $5 across the board.

    ECHL in OKC would survive with the proper management. Like him or not, Lund was a genius with the Blazers, and knew how to keep interest and promote them. Let's build that arena at the state fair to handle a hockey team. Blazers played several games in the existing arena there and it worked.
    as an avid blazers fan, and a barons season ticket holder for every season, i can say yes the bad taste was a large part of the problem... and the ticket price increase for most blazers fans went up way more than $5... a vast majority of those amazing blazers crowds never ever paid for tickets... i went to some 50 blazers games their last few years, and literally tired to buy tickets, and was just handed free tickets at the box office.

    yes the Barons were horribly managed, and never really stood a chance... but that was the fault of many things... Prodigal and the City not carrying about making any improvements to an aging Cox Center Arena until the ceiling collapsed. (note, knowing the city's long term plan to demo the site, makes sense to not make renovations). So the Barons were never going to be successful.

  17. #42

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    When Thunder go a few years in tank mode fans will not buy as many tickets. It happens.

    Hockey has failed here over the decades. Fans don’t support it fanatically enough over years to sell enough seats to sustain.

    I would rather continue to focus on the one pro sport we have and not muddy waters with hickey.

    I would be in support of soccer venue that can be used for other events. And fairgrounds is perfect location too. Close enough to downtown. Central to metro. Easy access with major Interstates. Could also hold HS playoffs/finals here. Host club soccer tourneys.

    Hockey has been tried and failed here why chase it again? I had fun going to Blazer games but the hockey ship has sailed imo
    break even point of ECHL over AHL is much lower... this is due to the contracts being much much less. so enough seats to sustain is also drastically reduced as well. if people knew about hockey and it wasn't in a building that most people don't know still holds events as they just use it to walk through when its cold... then it could easily in the Peake draw enough to keep it just above break even, and even bring in additional revenue to the city for 35 nights a year, rather than just have the arena sit empty

  18. Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    Hockey has been tried and failed here why chase it again? I had fun going to Blazer games but the hockey ship has sailed imo
    Hockey continues to grow as a sport in Oklahoma City, OKC has very active youth hockey, college hockey and adult hockey leagues as well as UCO and OU having teams. Will it grow enough to the point we could support another team...time will tell.

    My son is on a travel team and we play at various hockey venues across the the KS/MO/AR/TX area. IMO what seems to work is a facility of approximately 6000-8000 seats instead of trying to fill something like the Cox Center (see http://silversteineyecentersarena.com/about/welcome/ ) The Barons averaged 3500-4000 per game while the Blazers averaged 8000-10000 per game. They had different theories on ticket sales where blazers gave away more free tickets.

    One problem imo is OKC's facilities are too big or are too small (Blazers Ice Center/Artic Ice) The arena at the state fair (8500 seats) could work though but the focus there seems to be equine focused. OKC still has the Junior Blazers playing in the United Hockey Union (UHU) junior Western States Hockey League. Not sure of average attendance but they set a record in 2014 of 7100 people when they played at the Cox Center. They were at Blazers Ice Center but are moving to Artic this year.

  19. #44

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepnokc View Post
    Hockey continues to grow as a sport in Oklahoma City, OKC has very active youth hockey, college hockey and adult hockey leagues as well as UCO and OU having teams. Will it grow enough to the point we could support another team...time will tell.

    My son is on a travel team and we play at various hockey venues across the the KS/MO/AR/TX area. IMO what seems to work is a facility of approximately 6000-8000 seats instead of trying to fill something like the Cox Center (see http://silversteineyecentersarena.com/about/welcome/ ) The Barons averaged 3500-4000 per game while the Blazers averaged 8000-10000 per game. They had different theories on ticket sales where blazers gave away more free tickets.

    One problem imo is OKC's facilities are too big or are too small (Blazers Ice Center/Artic Ice) The arena at the state fair (8500 seats) could work though but the focus there seems to be equine focused. OKC still has the Junior Blazers playing in the United Hockey Union (UHU) junior Western States Hockey League. Not sure of average attendance but they set a record in 2014 of 7100 people when they played at the Cox Center. They were at Blazers Ice Center but are moving to Artic this year.
    Blazers never competed with Thunder and the then “new” team did. Fan attendance went down when Thunder came.

    More kids play soccer than hockey. My opinion is to chase soccer/multi use stadium before we chase hockey. Chasing both at once is a losing propostion in my opinion. Soccer is further along and growing faster.

  20. #45

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    Blazers never competed with Thunder and the then “new” team did. Fan attendance went down when Thunder came.

    More kids play soccer than hockey. My opinion is to chase soccer/multi use stadium before we chase hockey. Chasing both at once is a losing propostion in my opinion. Soccer is further along and growing faster.
    okay. if that is where you are coming from, i can not disagree with that position. soccer probably would be more widely accepted... but like was mentioned in the post above yours, Youth and college hockey are big in OKC... just not widely talked about.

  21. Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepnokc View Post
    Hockey continues to grow as a sport in Oklahoma City, OKC has very active youth hockey, college hockey and adult hockey leagues as well as UCO and OU having teams. Will it grow enough to the point we could support another team...time will tell.
    .
    UCO and OU are consistently in the Top 25 in their leagues and UCO is a two time National Champion with a solid fan base and the new coach for OU has done a lot to help get more people in the seats for those games.

  22. #47

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    First - I'm 100% in favor of an ECHL team playing in the new arena at State Fair Park.

    My recollection is that 25-30 years ago, when OKC was dead city, civic leadership decided to support downtown entertainment by renting the myriad to the CBA team OKC Cavalry for $1000 per game. Ray Miron and Brad Lund came in with the CHL concept and asked for the same deal for the Blazers. Which they got. This began the minor league sports war that the Blazers won in part because they had deeper pockets. When the Ford Center got built (as part of MAPS) the Blazers had the leverage to maintain a low cost rental agreement because they were the only game in town. This allowed them to sell tickets for $10 and less. Even thousands free to each game the last few years. The concessions for over 10,000 people helped make it profitable.

    But, I think that is the only model that made hockey profitable in OKC and the arrival of the Thunder made it unfair to operate the arena in that fashion. I think the approach of The Thunder is that they pay a lot of money, they make a lot of money for the city, and they want other tenants to abide by the same rules.

  23. #48

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dob Hooligan View Post
    First - I'm 100% in favor of an ECHL team playing in the new arena at State Fair Park.

    My recollection is that 25-30 years ago, when OKC was dead city, civic leadership decided to support downtown entertainment by renting the myriad to the CBA team OKC Cavalry for $1000 per game. Ray Miron and Brad Lund came in with the CHL concept and asked for the same deal for the Blazers. Which they got. This began the minor league sports war that the Blazers won in part because they had deeper pockets. When the Ford Center got built (as part of MAPS) the Blazers had the leverage to maintain a low cost rental agreement because they were the only game in town. This allowed them to sell tickets for $10 and less. Even thousands free to each game the last few years. The concessions for over 10,000 people helped make it profitable.

    But, I think that is the only model that made hockey profitable in OKC and the arrival of the Thunder made it unfair to operate the arena in that fashion. I think the approach of The Thunder is that they pay a lot of money, they make a lot of money for the city, and they want other tenants to abide by the same rules.
    based upon the previous discussions with a group trying to bring ECHL to OKC... they don't want other tenants to abide by the same rules... they just don't want other tenants...

  24. Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    My opinion is to chase soccer/multi use stadium before we chase hockey. Chasing both at once is a losing propostion in my opinion. Soccer is further along and growing faster.
    I agree that more people play soccer than hockey but that doesn't seem to translate to people attending games. Over the last two seasons....OKC Energy (soccer) averaged 4000-4200 attendance per game. Slightly more than the Barons and significantly less than the Blazers. Having hockey in a facility that easily is used for other options seems smarter than soccer stadium that doesn't translate to other uses as easily.

    My only point though really is that Hockey is not dead in OKC and can still thrive if right model is set up. I do not think that ship has sailed.

  25. #50

    Default Re: East Coast Hockey League (ECHL)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepnokc View Post
    I agree that more people play soccer than hockey but that doesn't seem to translate to people attending games. Over the last two seasons....OKC Energy (soccer) averaged 4000-4200 attendance per game. Slightly more than the Barons and significantly less than the Blazers. Having hockey in a facility that easily is used for other options seems smarter than soccer stadium that doesn't translate to other uses as easily.

    My only point though really is that Hockey is not dead in OKC and can still thrive if right model is set up. I do not think that ship has sailed.
    The challenge with comparisons is soccer is playing in an old dirt track and current HS stadium that won’t even allow team to sponsor tournements. Its in a residential area where parking and ingress/egress is difficult at best. No sidewalks in local residential areas where folks park. Compare to hocky had a much better setup and ample parkikg plus the whole of Bricktown for pre/post entertainment.

    I have nothing against hockey I just think soccer is already here and has an established core fanbase which would grow if they had a better place to play. The numbers you listed are for a worst case scenario and hockey numbers were for a much much better setup.

    I don’t think taxpayers would support chasing both concepts so at some point one of the two has to win out to get collaboration and concensus moving forward. If they basically “fight” each other for a vote then neither will win.

    My point is I think we as a city will have to choose one or the other before the city can plan and present to citizenry for a possible vote. Hockey is not here now so its behind the curve and all one can do is use older numbers and make assumptions. But hockey has been tried here several times too, so its failure rate is more documented than soccer.

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