Boulevard Place

[SpaceGuy]

A new TIF award has been initiated for this project.

Originally, there was a $5.7 million TIF that received final approval in 2021; this is to be rescinded.

Now the amount is $21.5 million against a total investment of $82.8 which equates to 26% of the budget.

lol jesus christ

[chssooner]

Did the cost of these projects increase? Or just the TIF?

[Pete]

Did the cost of these projects increase? Or just the TIF?

When the $5.7 million was awarded, a total investment amount wasn't listed.

[chssooner]

When the $5.7 million was awarded, a total investment amount wasn't listed.

Ah, ok. Seems crazy these TIFs are so high. Seems developers just aren't sure people want to live downtown yet (same with the Dream hotel and residential development).

I think both will be a hit, and pay dividends for OKC in the long-run, though. And lead to more residential development downtown.

[onthestrip]

In the real world, when costs rise or the economics dont work or theres uncertainty in the market, things get put on hold or maybe even cancelled. In the TIF world, you just ask for and receive a larger portion of ad valorem taxes to make it happen. Its been delayed enough as it is, just put it on hold further until costs get more realistic. This project doesnt HAVE to happen right now, and not with $21.5 million of public dollars, which is 4 times higher than the previous request! Inflation is bad but didnt know it was 4x higher bad...

[BoulderSooner]

In the real world, when costs rise or the economics dont work or theres uncertainty in the market, things get put on hold or maybe even cancelled. In the TIF world, you just ask for and receive a larger portion of ad valorem taxes to make it happen. Its been delayed enough as it is, just put it on hold further until costs get more realistic. This project doesnt HAVE to happen right now, and not with $21.5 million of public dollars, which is 4 times higher than the previous request! Inflation is bad but didnt know it was 4x higher bad...

the money doesn't exist with out this project ...

no reason to delay it ..

[Pete]

At some point downtown housing and other commercial development have to stand on their own.

We've created a monster that is not only growing but at an increasing rate.

[G.Walker]

Usually when one high-rise tower is successful, you see a snowball effect. More developers will follow suit. Its easier to get financing for high rise residential vs. high rise office. Residential projects have a stronger ROI right now.

[PhiAlpha]

I definitely don’t blame any developer for taking advantage of TIF and asking for as much as they can get but at some point the city has to rein it in. That said, if the city makes it indiscriminately available…no one should be upset at developers if they try to use it…they would be dumb not to.

[BoulderSooner]

I definitely don’t blame any developer for taking advantage of TIF and asking for as much as they can get but at some point the city has to rein it in. That said, if the city makes it indiscriminately available…no one should be upset at developers if they try to use it…they would be dumb not to.

TIF is really the only way the city can use property taxes.

They have no real incentive to not continue to use it.

More residents down town will all greatly increase sales taxes. And the city does benefit from that.

[G.Walker]

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....

[soonerguru]

This project has been an utter disappointment. I would be more supportive of the TIF if this group were truly offering affordable housing along the lines they suggested before being awarded the project. It’s disappointing that other bidders were passed over for this developer and may already have a completed project by now. It is reminiscent of the Hill in some ways.

[BoulderSooner]

This project has been an utter disappointment. I would be more supportive of the TIF if this group were truly offering affordable housing along the lines they suggested before being awarded the project. It’s disappointing that other bidders were passed over for this developer and may already have a completed project by now. It is reminiscent of the Hill in some ways.

if the original developers still had the hill there would be 1 more building for sure and maybe 2 already ..

[Plutonic Panda]

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....

Haha no free lunch in my future then.

[Just the facts]

the money doesn't exist with out this project ...

no reason to delay it ..

How many years will it take for the City to break even on this?

[BoulderSooner]

How many years will it take for the City to break even on this?

0 because that are not spending any money they get the tax revenue from residents right away the city wins

[king183]

If this project breaks ground before October 1st, I will buy lunch for Pete, Just The Facts, Plutonic Panda, HOT ROD, and King183.....

Now I am furiously emailing and calling the developers, begging them to begin.

[Urbanized]

How many years will it take for the City to break even on this?

0 because that are not spending any money they get the tax revenue from residents right away the city wins

There is a very strong case to be made that the ad valorem taxing entities only lose money if they DON’T help make this project a reality.

Meaning: it is currently an unimproved parking lot that generates very little property tax. It could sit like this for ANOTHER twenty years, providing near-zero economic boost, or something can be built upon it, triggering new assessments based upon newly-appraised value. A portion of which would still no matter what go to the TIF district in which it resides, but a portion of which goes to taxing entities.

Now, it’s possible that the space could be developed using low-slung buildings like the rest of lower Bricktown, which would generate SOME additional revenue, sure.

OR, this massive development - which requires assistance to pencil - goes in and generates a correspondingly massive increase in tax generation, a portion of which helps fund the project, but a portion of which will go to the taxing entities AS NEWLY-REALIZED REVENUE. Not to mention major increases in room tax collections on any hotel rooms, and sales tax collections throughout.

We go ‘round and ‘round on this board regarding TIF, but I continue to believe that few here fully understand that TIF is only derived from INCREASED ad valorem tax. No development, no new tax receipts. EVERYBODY loses. You can’t save money if you never had it in the first place.

[Pete]

We go ‘round and ‘round on this board regarding TIF, but I continue to believe that few here fully understand that TIF is only derived from INCREASED ad valorem tax. No development, no new tax receipts. EVERYBODY loses. You can’t save money if you never had it in the first place.

This is categorically false and demonstrates your own lack of understanding of how TIF works.



TIF is funded by increases in property taxes from properties that don't receive TIF grants and that were already existing or built without public assistance.

In fact, that is where most the funding comes from.

TIF takes increases in property tax from *all* properties within the defined district not just new projects funded with TIF dollars.

For example, Leadership Square opened in the 1980s but almost 25 years ago, increases in their property tax -- which have been massive -- goes to TIF instead of schools (which receive over 70% of the proceeds from property tax). Same is true for hundreds of downtown properties and in other TIF districts.

And the promise that these districts will expire in 25 years has proven to be largely false, because as TIF 2 (most of downtown) is nearing its end, there has been a rush to carve out pieces of that area and create brand new TIF districts which in turn will run another 25 years.

On and on it goes.

[dcsooner]

This incessant need by developers to garner tax kickbacks, rebates, subsidies, or whatever you call them reflects OKC's weakness as an emerging market. YES, other cities offer incentives BUT OKC does not appear to have the momentum economically to support large independent investments. To put it plainly, the OKC populous does not possess a very high per capita income with disposable incomes (keep losing manufacturing and that won't change anytime soon). I believe politics is a detriment to OK business growth. Without Tinker, OKC would basically be a government town. I point to this as a reason for poor airline service ( no money to fly anywhere and no reason (business reasons, significant entertainment reasons) to fly here.

[Urbanized]

This is categorically false and demonstrates your own lack of understanding of how TIF works.



TIF is funded by increases in property taxes from properties that don't receive TIF grants and that were already existing or built without public assistance.

In fact, that is where most the funding comes from.

TIF takes increases in property tax from *all* properties within the defined district not just new projects funded with TIF dollars.

For example, Leadership Square opened in the 1980s but almost 25 years ago, increases in their property tax -- which have been massive -- goes to TIF instead of schools (which receive over 70% of the proceeds from property tax). Same is true for hundreds of downtown properties and in other TIF districts.

And the promise that these districts will expire in 25 years has proven to be largely false, because as TIF 2 (most of downtown) is nearing its end, there has been a rush to carve out pieces of that area and create brand new TIF districts which in turn will run another 25 years.

On and on it goes.

You said it yourself. TIF only comes from INCREASES in property tax. The baseline is left intact. The valuations that drive those increases are themselves driven by the proliferation of new development. One of the main reasons OKC continues to blow tax revenue projections out of the water is because of the renewed vitality, job growth and inbound sales tax dollars, in large part due to what has been happening downtown over the past quarter century. Pull the plug on all of that and see what happens.

[Pete]

You said it yourself. TIF only comes from INCREASES in property tax. The baseline is left intact. The valuations that drive those increases are themselves driven by the proliferation of new development. One of the main reasons OKC continues to blow tax revenue projections out of the water is because of the renewed vitality, job growth and inbound sales tax dollars, in large part due to what has been happening downtown over the past quarter century. Pull the plug on all of that and see what happens.

The huge majority of improvements downtown - both public and private - have not come from TIF.

[Richard at Remax]

This is categorically false and demonstrates your own lack of understanding of how TIF works.



TIF is funded by increases in property taxes from properties that don't receive TIF grants and that were already existing or built without public assistance.

In fact, that is where most the funding comes from.

TIF takes increases in property tax from *all* properties within the defined district not just new projects funded with TIF dollars.

For example, Leadership Square opened in the 1980s but almost 25 years ago, increases in their property tax -- which have been massive -- goes to TIF instead of schools (which receive over 70% of the proceeds from property tax). Same is true for hundreds of downtown properties and in other TIF districts.

And the promise that these districts will expire in 25 years has proven to be largely false, because as TIF 2 (most of downtown) is nearing its end, there has been a rush to carve out pieces of that area and create brand new TIF districts which in turn will run another 25 years.

On and on it goes.

BINGO. This is my biggest beef. Our public schools are overall considered very sub par. Is there any way to calculate how much money the school systems have lost over the years with these handouts?

[Pete]

^

OKC TIF districts have already collected and spent over $1.2 billion in TIF and there is at least another $500 million obligated with more to come.

So take 70% of those numbers -- it's huge.

[Urbanized]

It would be flawed math to calculate it in this way because - again - a significant portion of the newly-realized revenue (the part that doesn’t go to schools, county etc) would never have been gained to begin with without the development energy that continues to be fostered by TIF. Including much of the sales (and property) tax growth throughout ALL of the city.