Bus Rapid Transit (BRT)

[shawnw]

BRT Open House
https://twitter.com/EMBARKOK/status/1096180478686756871

[shawnw]

We should maybe merge this thread with this other one?

http://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=44738

[Plutonic Panda]

First public meeting or open house(I don't know if that's the same thing?): https://embarkok.us15.list-manage.co...&id=7b8c377ece

[Pete]

Update on this project from the COTPA agenda:

[Swalell1960]

So, what's the haps on this project these days?

[shawnw]

in the maps meeting today it was stated it's in the engineering/design phase

[Plutonic Panda]

https://journalrecord.com/2019/08/12...ansit-station/

[Swalell1960]

So, just testing the waters on general inclination of thoughts re BRT, are we headed toward using pantograpghs/overhead lines, articulated buses, and new dedicated lanes or dedicated pull outs for individual stops

[BoulderSooner]

So, just testing the waters on general inclination of thoughts re BRT, are we headed toward using pantograpghs/overhead lines, articulated buses, and new dedicated lanes or dedicated pull outs for individual stops

this form of "Brt" is just pull outs at stops and extra lanes at a few intersections .... the rest is just in lanes with normal traffic ...

[Plutonic Panda]

this form of "Brt" is just pull outs at stops and extra lanes at a few intersections .... the rest is just in lanes with normal traffic ...

The median of NWE should be turned into a bus highway with signal preemption and flyovers at major intersections as to not disrupt vehicle traffic. This would also set the stage for LRT conversion in the future much like the Orange Line in the SFV(LA METRO). I'd compromise and let Classen go from 6 to 4 lanes as long as it was widened to include protected bike lanes.

NWE could be a scaled down version of this road in Buenos Aires:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Av...!4d-58.3818498



The Classen portion more akin to this minus the urban fabric obviously

[OKC Guy]

The median of NWE should be turned into a bus highway with signal preemption and flyovers at major intersections as to not disrupt vehicle traffic. This would also set the stage for LRT conversion in the future much like the Orange Line in the SFV(LA METRO). I'd compromise and let Classen go from 6 to 4 lanes as long as it was widened to include protected bike lanes.

NWE could be a scaled down version of this road in Buenos Aires:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Av...!4d-58.3818498



The Classen portion more akin to this minus the urban fabric obviously

I like the thinking out of box but several reasons these ideas won’t work.

1. NWE is a major corridor and reducing lanes would cause major traffic nightmares. Not a lot of room to expand side to side either.

2. Putting buses in median is a good idea but won’t work at street level. First it would only room for 1 lane due to width. And you need buses to go 2 ways. Then you would have to put up concrete barriers. Additionally this would eliminate turn lanes in between major intersections. The only way this works is to raise it up and outward like done in Houston on interstate but there is no way we could afford the costs.

It will be a challenge to make buses work soley because we never planned for buses years ago.

Heck, we can’t even get rush hour light priority accomplished after years of supposedly trying. We would rather stop 100 cars so 1 or 2 can cross instead of lengthening light cycles for majority rush hour traffic. They need to already be working on that before expanding buses happens soon enough.

[Plutonic Panda]

I like the thinking out of box but several reasons these ideas won’t work.

1. NWE is a major corridor and reducing lanes would cause major traffic nightmares. Not a lot of room to expand side to side either.

2. Putting buses in median is a good idea but won’t work at street level. First it would only room for 1 lane due to width. And you need buses to go 2 ways. Then you would have to put up concrete barriers. Additionally this would eliminate turn lanes in between major intersections. The only way this works is to raise it up and outward like done in Houston on interstate but there is no way we could afford the costs.

It will be a challenge to make buses work soley because we never planned for buses years ago.

Heck, we can’t even get rush hour light priority accomplished after years of supposedly trying. We would rather stop 100 cars so 1 or 2 can cross instead of lengthening light cycles for majority rush hour traffic. They need to already be working on that before expanding buses happens soon enough.

I don't propose reducing lanes for NWE. My idea actually gives a possibility of making NWE and 8 lane road down the line. The BRT lanes would be placed in the oversized median. I also proposed more grade separated intersection for NWE but that is another topic for another discussion. There is so much ROW on NWE it can be widened to accommodate two way median running BRT.

My proposed Classen would place the buses on the right side and NOT the median. A flyover bridge to allow buses to bypass the intersection at Classen and NWE would be built and large multi-lane roundabout would be replace the intersection that replaced the Classen Circle.

I agree with the ITS network and have synchronized lights. My plan would move cars faster increasing the capacity of NWE without adding GP lanes. New grade separated interchanges replaced intersections at major areas. Sidewalks and bike trails are added along NWE connecting to the proposed protected bike lanes on Classen.

[Swalell1960]

I don't propose reducing lanes for NWE. My idea actually gives a possibility of making NWE and 8 lane road down the line. The BRT lanes would be placed in the oversized median. I also proposed more grade separated intersection for NWE but that is another topic for another discussion. There is so much ROW on NWE it can be widened to accommodate two way median running BRT.

My proposed Classen would place the buses on the right side and NOT the median. A flyover bridge to allow buses to bypass the intersection at Classen and NWE would be built and large multi-lane roundabout would be replace the intersection that replaced the Classen Circle.

I agree with the ITS network and have synchronized lights. My plan would move cars faster increasing the capacity of NWE without adding GP lanes. New grade separated interchanges replaced intersections at major areas. Sidewalks and bike trails are added along NWE connecting to the proposed protected bike lanes on Classen.

I think it would be important, though not necessarily likely, to have a certain portion of the schedule include express options, skipping stops for events, peak, or even non-peak (to encourage travel and increase commerce at either end) hours. I say this as a fan of infrastructure development, and from the point of view of never having utilized any public transportation in OKC. To that end, I worry. Maybe I've just never been in the right place at the right time, but I've never seen a full bus here.

Just a few more thoughts from someone who was bred, born, and raised here--original homestead family in fact. It's a conundrum of sorts, but I think there's a little bit within us OKC life-longers that we have a definite sense of OKC having paid its dues (And thus its loyal denizens), and that it's time we get recognized, therefore we definitely sport a build it and they will come sensibility. But OKC is always going to be a baby city, sprung up from where nothing but a water stop had been, except of course for the indigenous tribes of the plains (who were probably pretty fond of their home too), and will always be "behind" in the waves of history that create civilizations and its cities.

So, tldr: I worry that we will NEVER have the urban density that would truly support the type of rapid transit associated with long-ago established traditional American "classic" big cities.

[shawnw]

So, just testing the waters on general inclination of thoughts re BRT, are we headed toward using pantograpghs/overhead lines, articulated buses, and new dedicated lanes or dedicated pull outs for individual stops

The only thing I know for sure, based on the Embark ED's comments at the MAPS4 transit presentation is that there won't be articulated buses for the Classen BRT. They determined it would raise their maintenance costs too much as none of their maintenance facilities can take a bigger bus than what they have now so they'd have to spend on upgrades there. It will still be a 40 ft bus.

[HOT ROD]

Makes a lot of sense? ???

Not - wont be too much Mass Transit once that 40 foot bus fills up before even reaching May and NWE during rush hours especially. Sort of defeats the whole purpose of BRT if the bus shows up full all the time. ....

TBH, if they're going to just do 40' buses and just implement curb cuts; then they should implement this by end of next year vs. waiting until 2023. They'd only need to purchase the buses (I assume) and then do some of the roadwork/platform installation (which, at only about 10 or 12 stops, EW; could be done in about a year). And if they're "saving money" by using 40' buses then there wouldn't need to be any maintenance facilities they could just use existing.

I'm not buying it. Again, the point of BRT is to have an available bus, frequently, along the designated 'high-speed' corridor. It is for this reason why EVERY other transit agency with BRT has chosen articulated buses - they provide flexibility so that seating is always AVAILABLE when the bus arrives. And they're getting a federal grant and probably some MAPS funds - why not go and build the next mode of transit correct? Articulated buses also allow for greater use of driver resources since one driver could haul 100+ pax in each bus!!!!

Good grief, does OKC have to half a$$ do everything?? Are they serious about building a transit audience? Build the darn new maintenance base for the BRT (which you'll need to do anyway) and buy articulated buses. I'm a little less concerned about the curb cuts vs. dedicated lanes since OKC will take some time for the system to gain critical mass ridership to justify restricting lanes. But at least implement the darn thing correctly otherwise people will get the wrong idea, that the 40' bus is nothing more than the scheduled Embark bus that is scheduled to arrive every hour.

BTW, articulated buses are run in cities much more dense with roadwork must more constrained than OKC. I get tired of hearing these pissy complaints about overhead transit wires or articulated buses wont traverse OKCs otherwise completely WIDE streets. ... Come on, grow up OKC. If you're going to implement transit then do it the right way. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time and $$ on something nobody will really use (isn't that the current worry in OKC about existing 40' buses - that they're for the homeless/poor? - why not differentiate the BRT like every other system worldwide does).

[shawnw]

I'm with you. I've had these same conversations with almost every Embark official at every public meeting for years now. But I also ride the bus in Oklahoma City every day and have ridden almost every route. We've got a long way to go to fill any bus. It doesn't matter how sexy a bus is, its launch will not be like the streetcar, crowds wise. It will be a more gradual adoption. We just need to get this thing online. There's nothing that says we can't evolve things once they're online. Once people believe in it, Once the two additional BRT lines proposed in MAPS 4 are online. Once the RTA is running strong. Etc.

[Swalell1960]

Good grief, does OKC have to half a$$ do everything?? Are they serious about building a transit audience? Build the darn new maintenance base for the BRT (which you'll need to do anyway) and buy articulated buses. I'm a little less concerned about the curb cuts vs. dedicated lanes since OKC will take some time for the system to gain critical mass ridership to justify restricting lanes. But at least implement the darn thing correctly otherwise people will get the wrong idea, that the 40' bus is nothing more than the scheduled Embark bus that is scheduled to arrive every hour.

The infrastructure nerd in me always seems to trump the sensible public expenditure side of me. I would love to see catenary wires over Classen, and articulated buses on dedicated lanes. I'd also like to see the streetcar system expanding to something truly impactful, but that's obvious. Norman, Edmond.

And I wish Tulsa would catch up on their transit thinking. If there were a practical rail connection between the 405 and the 918 I would be fully supportive of that, but the existing RoW is an absurdity of twists and turns and wholly unsuited for passenger rail traffic, at least rail traffic whose mission is moving people in a meaningfully timely fashion from one place to the other.

[Plutonic Panda]

The only thing I know for sure, based on the Embark ED's comments at the MAPS4 transit presentation is that there won't be articulated buses for the Classen BRT. They determined it would raise their maintenance costs too much as none of their maintenance facilities can take a bigger bus than what they have now so they'd have to spend on upgrades there. It will still be a 40 ft bus.

So no dedicated bus lanes, no articulated buses... fcking christ! How in the hell is this BRT!?

[shawnw]

It's hybrid at best, which I hate, and which I've made clear to folks I've talked to (that a fancier regular bus is not enough), but they ARE pushing hard on the TSP, so hopefully the timing experience will at least be better.

[the michigander]

I dont think the brt route is long enough I think the route should start at belle isle walmart and go to walmart on council most people who would need a nwe bus would need it past meridian that's where most if the housing and jobs are.

[shawnw]

At the open house I made this point with every Embark person I could get to listen. Needs to go to Macarthur at a minimum but farther is better. Still needs to go to downtown though for route connectivity.

[AP]

Any recent updates?

[shawnw]

There have been minor updates at each of the ward MAPS 4 forums. Probably they update at COTPA board meetings as well. But I think still in design, probably still a couple years from construction (not scheduled to launch until 2023).

[Plutonic Panda]

According to Embark response on twitter they plan on opening the NWE BRT line in late 2023. I was hoping it would be sooner than that. Honestly I was hoping for some movement this year or next year but the end of 2023 sucks. With that timeline I hope it is true BRT with its own dedicated lanes and perhaps some overpasses are major intersections.

[shawnw]

It's always been 2023, since the very first open house. Also there is no indication via any plans I've seen as recently as December that it will be true BRT. I'm with you and am a frequent complainer on this issue.