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  1. #151

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I get that there are basic economic principles, but I don't foresee a minimum wage to 10.50 hurting OKC in the fashion a 15 dollar/hour wage will hurt those in NYC. There is little if no room for many people including restaurant owners in NYC to have extra income to spare for such things. I will admit, I'm not well educated in this area so it's hard for me to really come up with a solution in NYC's case, but I don't necessarily agree with a blanket $15 per hour minimum wage. It seems other solutions need to be brought the table and NOT those that interfere with the free market like rent control.
    Free enterprise.

    One it gives incentive for someone to work hard and move up or out/up.

    Two once you raise it you now have a new floor and in a few years their spending power is no more than it used to be except everyone suffered due to price increases. So now the next 2 steps up loose spending power and even middle class do as well, due to price increases. Then what?

    Eventually you become socialist and there is no lower and middle class they are all just equal pay. But now you also kill incentive for all these classes to improve and you kill college worth. If the HS graduate is paid same or close to college grad you have no reason for college. You dumb down the population and ideas and we become a lesser country.

    Thats what the left is after, socialism and they do it one step at a time. Min wage is just a part of their ideas and it eventually turns into a bad socialist experiment. Show me one good socialist country (thats been socialist over 50 years). The end goal is to control the people by taking rights and choices away.

    The market works and no matter how hard anyone tries there will always be people on the botton of the working class ladder. And its not a bad thing. I spelled this out in a prior post pages back. The big box stores killed the entry jobs for teenagers. After school jobs. These are important for experience and incentive. Most successful people worked hard as teens and used it to drive themselves to do better.

    Now everyone wants a HS graduate to walk into a $15/hr job.

  2. #152

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    I disagree minimum wages will lead to socialism.

  3. Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    Free enterprise.

    One it gives incentive for someone to work hard and move up or out/up.

    Two once you raise it you now have a new floor and in a few years their spending power is no more than it used to be except everyone suffered due to price increases. So now the next 2 steps up loose spending power and even middle class do as well, due to price increases. Then what?

    Eventually you become socialist and there is no lower and middle class they are all just equal pay. But now you also kill incentive for all these classes to improve and you kill college worth. If the HS graduate is paid same or close to college grad you have no reason for college. You dumb down the population and ideas and we become a lesser country.

    Thats what the left is after, socialism and they do it one step at a time. Min wage is just a part of their ideas and it eventually turns into a bad socialist experiment. Show me one good socialist country (thats been socialist over 50 years). The end goal is to control the people by taking rights and choices away.

    The market works and no matter how hard anyone tries there will always be people on the botton of the working class ladder. And its not a bad thing. I spelled this out in a prior post pages back. The big box stores killed the entry jobs for teenagers. After school jobs. These are important for experience and incentive. Most successful people worked hard as teens and used it to drive themselves to do better.

    Now everyone wants a HS graduate to walk into a $15/hr job.
    I know you wont read them, but here are some objective facts about why you are wrong.

    https://www.businessinsider.com/mini...u-study-2018-9

    http://irle.berkeley.edu/effects-of-...ia-and-fresno/

    https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10....2.107025/full/

  4. #154

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    I get that there are basic economic principles, but I don't foresee a minimum wage to 10.50 hurting OKC in the fashion a 15 dollar/hour wage will hurt those in NYC. There is little if no room for many people including restaurant owners in NYC to have extra income to spare for such things. I will admit, I'm not well educated in this area so it's hard for me to really come up with a solution in NYC's case, but I don't necessarily agree with a blanket $15 per hour minimum wage. It seems other solutions need to be brought the table and NOT those that interfere with the free market like rent control.
    You are probably right that it won't hurt OKC per se, and that's only because a small percentage actually are paid that low. it will just hurt those people that were making minimum wage before and are now out of a job, or those people that wanted to get into the market for the first time and will now be denied.

    And I truly doubt it will do all that much to raise average wages, other than the obvious of eliminating jobs that pay less than $10.50 (or whatever it would be). The real average won't increase for those already making wages at or above that amount.

  5. #155

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by citywokchinesefood View Post
    These are all hypothetical.

    Now do what has happened when wages were raised in the past. There is a reason it is commonly accepted that raising min wage causes reduced employment. Because that's what has happened when they did it last time, and the time before that, and all the times before that. I understand being a Democrat means thinking you can do something that has been done over and over again with disastrous results but believing it will work out well this time, but come one now.

  6. #156

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    The unemployment rate is extremely low. For arguments sake, if what you are saying about those making minimum wage are a small percentage and will loose their job, they shouldnít have trouble finding a new one and they will be better off when they do. Assistance exists. Letís not live in fear.

  7. #157

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    These are all hypothetical.

    Now do what has happened when wages were raised in the past. There is a reason it is commonly accepted that raising min wage causes reduced employment. Because that's what has happened when they did it last time, and the time before that, and all the times before that. I understand being a Democrat means thinking you can do something that has been done over and over again with disastrous results but believing it will work out well this time, but come one now.
    The studies are mixed on this, but what reduced employment that has been shown has been very little. You act like thousands and thousands of jobs will disappear in OKC, that wont happen.

    And in no way can we compare a rapid phase in of $15/hr minimum wage to a $9 or 10/hr increase. They are so far apart that it makes no sense in comparing the two.

    Anyone care to bring up the amount of money, assistance, welfare, the government (taxpayers) save when people are paid better?

  8. #158

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by onthestrip View Post
    The studies are mixed on this, but what reduced employment that has been shown has been very little. You act like thousands and thousands of jobs will disappear in OKC, that wont happen.

    And in no way can we compare a rapid phase in of $15/hr minimum wage to a $9 or 10/hr increase. They are so far apart that it makes no sense in comparing the two.

    Anyone care to bring up the amount of money, assistance, welfare, the government (taxpayers) save when people are paid better?
    You just made a perfect argument, but not in regards to anything I have ever posted on here about min wage and employment. I have oft said that min wage jobs represent an exceedingly small proportion of overall jobs. However, their significance is in that it is often the first job people get. Employers will want more skills than they did before because they are now forced to pay more. Why would they want to pay more for less essentially. No study ever looked at the effect of rapid rises of min wage because it pretty much has never happened before. Kind of a lame argument to bolster your position.

    I am anti welfare as a general position. Obviously, I am not going to come on here saying we need to abolish it all. However, min wage in my opinion (and others) only goes to exacerbate the need for social programs. I thought you all were for abortion because you didn't want to expand programs? Did I misread that one?

  9. Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You just made a perfect argument, but not in regards to anything I have ever posted on here about min wage and employment. I have oft said that min wage jobs represent an exceedingly small proportion of overall jobs. However, their significance is in that it is often the first job people get. Employers will want more skills than they did before because they are now forced to pay more. Why would they want to pay more for less essentially. No study ever looked at the effect of rapid rises of min wage because it pretty much has never happened before. Kind of a lame argument to bolster your position.

    I am anti welfare as a general position. Obviously, I am not going to come on here saying we need to abolish it all. However, min wage in my opinion (and others) only goes to exacerbate the need for social programs. I thought you all were for abortion because you didn't want to expand programs? Did I misread that one?
    If you are against welfare as a general position, you are against corporate welfare by default. A low minimum wage results in increased use of services like food stamps, the cost of those food stamps is then passed on to the tax payer. Guess what? Those corporations are not paying anything in taxes. In fact they are sending money off shore, cutting jobs, buying back stock, and sending executives off into the sunset with multi million dollar severance packages. If you are against welfare, but support lower effective tax rates (effectively 0% mind you) for corporations, you are not thinking for yourself. I suggest you try to take the time to read through all five links I have provided for you. The throw away "Its hypothetical" is bull****.

    http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/the-...-of-low-wages/

    http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/d...onepercent.pdf

    In regards to the throw away statement about abortion you made at the end. Nobody should be for or against abortion due to a potential cost of a child on the system. Abortion is a medical procedure that should be discussed between a woman and her doctor. The entire country doesn't need to get consulted when you get your regularly scheduled colonoscopy, vasectomy, or when you need that Viagra prescription. Your statement was in poor taste and entirely counter productive.

  10. #160

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by citywokchinesefood View Post
    If you are against welfare as a general position, you are against corporate welfare by default. A low minimum wage results in increased use of services like food stamps, the cost of those food stamps is then passed on to the tax payer. Guess what? Those corporations are not paying anything in taxes. In fact they are sending money off shore, cutting jobs, buying back stock, and sending executives off into the sunset with multi million dollar severance packages. If you are against welfare, but support lower effective tax rates (effectively 0% mind you) for corporations, you are not thinking for yourself. I suggest you try to take the time to read through all five links I have provided for you. The throw away "Its hypothetical" is bull****.

    http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/the-...-of-low-wages/

    http://www.goodjobsfirst.org/sites/d...onepercent.pdf

    In regards to the throw away statement about abortion you made at the end. Nobody should be for or against abortion due to a potential cost of a child on the system. Abortion is a medical procedure that should be discussed between a woman and her doctor. The entire country doesn't need to get consulted when you get your regularly scheduled colonoscopy, vasectomy, or when you need that Viagra prescription. Your statement was in poor taste and entirely counter productive.
    Of course I am against corporate "welfare". Call it what you will. I have a huge surprise for you if you think corporations aren't paying any taxes though. HUGE SURPRISE!

    You assume a default position of there are social welfare programs. It's a chicken and egg thing. You say low wages are subsidized by social programs. I say social programs are subsidized by high wages.

    I am saying without a huge social safety net, a min wage would not be necessary AT ALL. It's really difficult to make the case when there are so so many programs though.

    You should read some of the old threads before making this judgement on my abortion comment. I have heard ad nauseum that Republicans don't care about the baby once it is born So SO SO MANY times. Really, I urge you to.

  11. Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Of course I am against corporate "welfare". Call it what you will. I have a huge surprise for you if you think corporations aren't paying any taxes though. HUGE SURPRISE!

    You assume a default position of there are social welfare programs. It's a chicken and egg thing. You say low wages are subsidized by social programs. I say social programs are subsidized by high wages.

    I am saying without a huge social safety net, a min wage would not be necessary AT ALL. It's really difficult to make the case when there are so so many programs though.

    You should read some of the old threads before making this judgement on my abortion comment. I have heard ad nauseum that Republicans don't care about the baby once it is born So SO SO MANY times. Really, I urge you to.
    Yes, I do realize that corporations do in fact pay taxes. The fact is they are not paying their fair share by any stretch of the imagination. Why not take a moment to read some up to date literature on the subject?

    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploa...-Reduction.pdf

    https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime...-income-taxes/

    https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/

    I have zero intention of reading through old political threads on this website. It is literally the same angry old men arguing with ad hominem, strawmen, and non sequiturs. It would quite possibly make someone dumber by going back and reading through it all.

  12. #162

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by citywokchinesefood View Post
    Yes, I do realize that corporations do in fact pay taxes. The fact is they are not paying their fair share by any stretch of the imagination. Why not take a moment to read some up to date literature on the subject?

    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploa...-Reduction.pdf

    https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime...-income-taxes/

    https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/
    Changing the subject. Let me know what you want to talk about from here on out please, I'm getting confused. For now I'm sticking with min wage as it applies to this state and what we should do.

    And I won't engage if you use the words "fair share". It's not a real thing.

    And Amazon pays over a billion in taxes per year, which granted is only slightly over 10% of their net income, but hardly zero. Amazon, like every individual I have ever worked with professionally, practices a healthy amount of tax avoidance. This is completely legal. For 2018 (paid in '10) it will likely be somewhere on the order of $1.4B if you want to believe the estimates in their own 10-K.

    Quote Originally Posted by citywokchinesefood View Post
    I have zero intention of reading through old political threads on this website. It is literally the same angry old men arguing with ad hominem, strawmen, and non sequiturs. It would quite possibly make someone dumber by going back and reading through it all.
    You make a fine addition of straw-men generators.

  13. #163
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    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You should read some of the old threads before making this judgement on my abortion comment. I have heard ad nauseum that Republicans don't care about the baby once it is born So SO SO MANY times. Really, I urge you to.
    Sorry, I don't need to do that. Because from years ago, I'll never forget the anti-abortion Oklahoma state legislator who opposed the bill that allowed mothers to hand over their unwanted newborns to a responsible party with no questions asked. It was to discourage women from throwing their unwanted newborns into dumpsters.

  14. #164

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by citywokchinesefood View Post
    Yes, I do realize that corporations do in fact pay taxes. The fact is they are not paying their fair share by any stretch of the imagination. Why not take a moment to read some up to date literature on the subject?

    https://www.aei.org/wp-content/uploa...-Reduction.pdf

    https://itep.org/amazon-in-its-prime...-income-taxes/

    https://itep.org/who-pays-taxes-in-america-in-2018/

    I have zero intention of reading through old political threads on this website. It is literally the same angry old men arguing with ad hominem, strawmen, and non sequiturs. It would quite possibly make someone dumber by going back and reading through it all.
    Me read this lily livered nonsense for years and me got smarts real good. You theory disapproved.
    Don't hassle me, I'm local.

  15. #165

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    Sorry, I don't need to do that. Because from years ago, I'll never forget the anti-abortion Oklahoma state legislator who opposed the bill that allowed mothers to hand over their unwanted newborns to a responsible party with no questions asked. It was to discourage women from throwing their unwanted newborns into dumpsters.
    i'm not familiar with this, however, I could only imagine that with the DHS we have, they would not be ok with this. Generally speaking what you describe is called adoption. So I'm a bit in the dark about what you are talking about. Apparently can't find the appropriate words to get anything to pop up in Google either.

  16. #166
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    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    These are all hypothetical.

    Now do what has happened when wages were raised in the past. There is a reason it is commonly accepted that raising min wage causes reduced employment. Because that's what has happened when they did it last time, and the time before that, and all the times before that. I understand being a Democrat means thinking you can do something that has been done over and over again with disastrous results but believing it will work out well this time, but come one now.
    Ha, the minimum wage in Nebraska is $9. The state unemployment rate is 2.8%. In Omaha 2.7%. That's lower than in Oklahoma. As a result of near full employment, some Omaha employers are offering an extra week or two of paid vacation, paid day care, car allowances, bonuses and more company-paid benefits. Interesting how Eric Thompson, director of the Bureau of Business Research and an economics professor at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, said the steep increase in wages over the past few years could indicate Omaha is succeeding at luring more technology jobs and other higher-wage occupations.

  17. #167

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    Ha, the minimum wage in Nebraska is $9. The state unemployment rate is 2.8%. In Omaha 2.7%. That's lower than in Oklahoma. As a result of near full employment, some Omaha employers are offering an extra week or two of paid vacation, paid day care, car allowances, bonuses and more company-paid benefits. Interesting how Eric Thompson, director of the Bureau of Business Research and an economics professor at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, said the steep increase in wages over the past few years could indicate Omaha is succeeding at luring more technology jobs and other higher-wage occupations.
    What does min wage have to do with the later part of your argument. The two may be happening at the same time, but one does not cause the other to occur.

  18. #168

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    What does min wage have to do with the later part of your argument. The two may be happening at the same time, but one does not cause the other to occur.
    It is you who is correlating loss of jobs with increased minimum wage while seemingly admitting you don't think it will have an impact either way, or at least that is how I interpreted it.

  19. #169

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutonic Panda View Post
    It is you who is correlating loss of jobs with increased minimum wage while seemingly admitting you don't think it will have an impact either way, or at least that is how I interpreted it.
    My case is that min wage is unnecessary. Pretty simple. I want people to be able to work for the wages they want to work for. Including teenagers that are largely getting left behind. In case you are unaware there is a bit of an epidemic of kids graduating from college with no marketable skills and no way to pay back the tens of thousands of dollars in loans they took out to get that education. In my opinion, this is not a coincidence.

  20. #170

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    My case is that min wage is unnecessary. Pretty simple. I want people to be able to work for the wages they want to work for. Including teenagers that are largely getting left behind. In case you are unaware there is a bit of an epidemic of kids graduating from college with no marketable skills and no way to pay back the tens of thousands of dollars in loans they took out to get that education. In my opinion, this is not a coincidence.
    I also think the job market is changing fairly rapidly. Not sure if you heard but even companies like Apple and Google recently said they are no longer requiring college diplomas to work for them.

  21. #171
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    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    i'm not familiar with this, however, I could only imagine that with the DHS we have, they would not be ok with this. Generally speaking what you describe is called adoption. So I'm a bit in the dark about what you are talking about. Apparently can't find the appropriate words to get anything to pop up in Google either.
    It was from over 10 years ago. Then Rep. Bill Graves said he was opposed to the law because it would allow women to be exempt from child abandonment charges.

  22. #172

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    An isolated minimum wage incident in NYC. With the new $15 min wage, 4,000 restaurant workers lost their jobs. Some want them to be shielded from being fired even though the restaurants can’t afford them. Do schools still teach supply and demand in Econ 101? Seems there is no understanding that if a company is forced to keep an employee employed at a certain wage then the company will go out of business and no one will have a job.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...rings.amp.html

    https://www.investors.com/politics/e...obs-recession/

  23. #173
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    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by emtefury View Post
    An isolated minimum wage incident in NYC. With the new $15 min wage, 4,000 restaurant workers lost their jobs. Some want them to be shielded from being fired even though the restaurants can’t afford them. Do schools still teach supply and demand in Econ 101? Seems there is no understanding that if a company is forced to keep an employee employed at a certain wage then the company will go out of business and no one will have a job.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nyt...rings.amp.html

    https://www.investors.com/politics/e...obs-recession/
    I look forward to stories much closer to home concerning what happens when the minimum wage is $11 on the Arkansas side of Texarkana and $7.25 on the Texas side of Texarkana. Perhaps the current difference is already having some effect.

  24. #174

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    More evidence that raising min wage is not helpful to either business nor workers:

    Whole Foods Slashes Worker Hours Four Months After $15 Minimum Wage Increase: Report

    Profile picture for user Tyler Durden
    by Tyler Durden
    Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:50

    Just four months after Amazon enacted a $15 minimum wage for all its employees on November 1, subsidiary Whole Foods is slashing worker hours, according to The Guardian.

    Whole Foods employees told The Guardian that the hourly raises are often negated by the reduced schedule.

    "My hours went from 30 to 20 a week," said one Illinois Whole Foods employee, who spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear of retaliation. "We just have to work faster to meet the same goals in less time."

    The Illinois-based worker explained that once the $15 minimum wage was enacted, part-time employee hours at their store were cut from an average of 30 to 21 hours a week, and full-time employees saw average hours reduced from 37.5 hours to 34.5 hours. The worker provided schedules from 1 November to the end of January 2019, showing hours for workers in their department significantly decreased as the department’s percentage of the entire store labor budget stayed relatively the same. -The Guardian

    The shift cuts are "the direct result of guidance from our regional team," according to an internal email shared by one employee.

    A Maryland Whole Foods worker added that their regional management team has forced stores to reduce full-time employee schedules by 4 hours, to 36 hours per week. "This hours cut makes that raise pointless as people are losing more than they gained and we rely on working full shifts," said the employee.

    The shift cuts are "the direct result of guidance from our regional team," according to an internal email shared by one employee.

    A Maryland Whole Foods worker added that their regional management team has forced stores to reduce full-time employee schedules by 4 hours, to 36 hours per week. "This hours cut makes that raise pointless as people are losing more than they gained and we rely on working full shifts," said the employee.

    Just about every person on our team has complained about their hours being cut. Some have had to look for other jobs as they can’t make ends meet," they added.

    "There are many team members working at Whole Foods today whose total compensation is actually less than what it was before the wage increase due to these labor reductions," said a spokesperson from Whole Foods employee advocacy group, Whole Worker.

    Read more, good article:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...ncrease-report

  25. #175

    Default Re: 2019 Legislative Season

    Quote Originally Posted by OKC Guy View Post
    More evidence that raising min wage is not helpful to either business nor workers:

    Whole Foods Slashes Worker Hours Four Months After $15 Minimum Wage Increase: Report

    Profile picture for user Tyler Durden
    by Tyler Durden
    Thu, 03/07/2019 - 10:50

    Just four months after Amazon enacted a $15 minimum wage for all its employees on November 1, subsidiary Whole Foods is slashing worker hours, according to The Guardian.

    Whole Foods employees told The Guardian that the hourly raises are often negated by the reduced schedule.

    "My hours went from 30 to 20 a week," said one Illinois Whole Foods employee, who spoke on condition of anonymity out of fear of retaliation. "We just have to work faster to meet the same goals in less time."

    The Illinois-based worker explained that once the $15 minimum wage was enacted, part-time employee hours at their store were cut from an average of 30 to 21 hours a week, and full-time employees saw average hours reduced from 37.5 hours to 34.5 hours. The worker provided schedules from 1 November to the end of January 2019, showing hours for workers in their department significantly decreased as the department’s percentage of the entire store labor budget stayed relatively the same. -The Guardian

    The shift cuts are "the direct result of guidance from our regional team," according to an internal email shared by one employee.

    A Maryland Whole Foods worker added that their regional management team has forced stores to reduce full-time employee schedules by 4 hours, to 36 hours per week. "This hours cut makes that raise pointless as people are losing more than they gained and we rely on working full shifts," said the employee.

    The shift cuts are "the direct result of guidance from our regional team," according to an internal email shared by one employee.

    A Maryland Whole Foods worker added that their regional management team has forced stores to reduce full-time employee schedules by 4 hours, to 36 hours per week. "This hours cut makes that raise pointless as people are losing more than they gained and we rely on working full shifts," said the employee.

    Just about every person on our team has complained about their hours being cut. Some have had to look for other jobs as they can’t make ends meet," they added.

    "There are many team members working at Whole Foods today whose total compensation is actually less than what it was before the wage increase due to these labor reductions," said a spokesperson from Whole Foods employee advocacy group, Whole Worker.

    Read more, good article:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...ncrease-report
    I've always wondered how a raise in minimum wage results in a business requiring less labor to get the job done. Logically either the story was over manning prior or the rise in the minimum wage caused a decline in business or the rise resulted in an increase in productivity. First one is bad management, the second is highly unlikely and third is a good thing.
    Don't hassle me, I'm local.

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