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  1. #401

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post

    I believe their are currently sanctions on Lebanon and Sudan. Nary a word from those haunts in the news in over a few years. And what are you talking about Pakistan. We supply them most of their weaponry and other significant financial assistance.
    yes, and Sudan might still be working on Nuclear Weapons as they have not ratified the Treaty of Pelindaba, and we have sanctions on them for many other reasons and not just Nuclear Weapons, and infact i don't think Nuclear Program was even on the list of reasons when we put those sanctions in place. and there have been Rumors for awhile that Lebanon is working on a Nuclear Program... so that clearly isn't working there either...

  2. #402

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    The Pakistan thing is akin to me giving my kid a $200/week allowance and then them being pissed at me for it not being $250/week.

  3. #403

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    You saying tensions were getting better is not evidence they were getting better. Nor is it evidence when it comes from the admin whose face depends on this deal working.

    And what was the force? A red line?



    I believe their are currently sanctions on Lebanon and Sudan. Nary a word from those haunts in the news in over a few years. And what are you talking about Pakistan. We supply them most of their weaponry and other significant financial assistance. You talking about the thing 6 months ago or so?
    So how have the similar unilateral sanctions worked out on Cuba since 1962? I don't know anything about sanctions on Sudan or Lebanon, care to explain if they are unilateral as well?
    If they are not unilateral then no need to bring them up in this discussion.

  4. #404

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    The Pakistan thing is akin to me giving my kid a $200/week allowance and then them being pissed at me for it not being $250/week.
    wow... you really need to go study the Glenn Amendment....

  5. #405

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    have any links that show that money was used for that??????

    and yes, they are now committing those acts... AFTER WE BACKED OUT AND REFUSED TO DEAL.... they actually were participating and allowing international observers in, until THIS ADMINISTRATION decided to back out of the deal and impose unilateral sanctions that none of the other signers of the deal wanted.

    i mean seriously... talk about picking and choosing cause and effect... geez....
    You really have to be kidding. You are smarter than this. "Picking and choosing" cause and effect here is like denying the Moore tornadoes destroyed all those houses in Moore. Iran obtained billions, Iran drastically stepped up their funding for terrorism. It's as simple as that. Now they are running out of that cash so they are getting desperate for the sanctions to be dropped.

    Iran knows their economy is quickly on its way to a Venezuelan type collapse. They know their population is very restive so they are trying to "manufacture" a military confrontation with the US in order to get attention off of their internal economic problems and stoke nationalistic and religious feelings.

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...-to-iran-back/


    https://dailycaller.com/2015/08/05/o...rrorism-video/

    https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ansom-to-iran/

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2016/...nts-terrorism/

    https://thehill.com/opinion/national...asnt-worth-the

    https://www.upi.com/Top_News/Voices/...3851547817517/

    https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/02/polit...ism/index.html

    https://www.algemeiner.com/2018/04/1...l-development/

    https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/...nder-the-jcpoa


    Is that enough for you? Cash and cash received by selling other assets, such as gold and bonds, is a fungible asset. So you can understand, that means if cash goes in one place, and cash is used to fund terrorism in another, it is the same cash.

    Your cash goes to the IRS. Your cash is also fungible so it goes to fund the Pentagon, pays for Trump's Cheetos, pays for Medicare and for highways and a gazillion other things. Unless you are really, actually saying Iran isn't sponsoring terrorism all over the middle east, you are just denying reality. They were sponsoring terrorism before Obama's multi-billion $ windfall but they radically stepped up their game while they had the money rapidly spending those billions on arms and the manufacture of weapons. How do you think the Houthi's (who otherwise can't afford rice for the bowls were able to obtain military drones?), how do you think Hezbollah has been able to obtain an estimated 100,000 missles they can launch into Israel when the time comes. How do you think the Palestinians can obtain the thousands of missles they shoot into Israel?

    Don't you recall the riots of earlier this year and last that were because, even average Iranians are tiring of the Ayatollah's militancy. Unfortunately, the Supreme Leader and Guardian council, the Revolutionary Guard and Quds Brigades are too powerful for the opposition so the opposition has been supressed forcefully.

    Maybe reading news you don't agree with might help give you a full sided view of the situation as well as reading other reference material on the region.

    Only the economic sanctions imposed in 2018 are keeping them in check. The acts of this morning indicate, as recent articles have indicated, Iran is now having a huge cash shortage and is starting to get desperate. Look for terroristic acts to only increase.

  6. #406

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    haha... first of all, i read news from many different sources, and always try to pull out the editorial for the facts in them... and yes, Iran is at a breaking point internally... and opening up sanctions and getting money to people and businesses, is the way to make positive steps going forward... the protests got their worst from 2017-2018... and at that time, there was information coming out of Iran about it... news organizations were getting information, people, individuals on the ground were working as correspondents and sources for international news agencies... for the first time every... we saw video of the riots from peoples cell phones, live on CNN and Fox News... there is your proof that relations with the people were actually getting better... there will probably be riots again, and we shall see if the hatred towards the US is back again, now that CNN and Fox News won't be able to make those connections due to the sanctions in place... means less information gets out and actually gives the Iranian Government more control over the narrative... much like they had when previous riots had occurred, like 2009, when very little video footage came out, unless it was from the government... and wait... sanctions were in place then..

    so yep... still going with my view on the effect that sanctions has on militaristic regimes that refuse to change, and oppress people. Sanctions (much like Cuba) keep them in power... open negotiations have actually worked in the past...

  7. #407

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    haha... first of all, i read news from many different sources, and always try to pull out the editorial for the facts in them... and yes, Iran is at a breaking point internally... and opening up sanctions and getting money to people and businesses, is the way to make positive steps going forward... the protests got their worst from 2017-2018... and at that time, there was information coming out of Iran about it... news organizations were getting information, people, individuals on the ground were working as correspondents and sources for international news agencies... for the first time every... we saw video of the riots from peoples cell phones, live on CNN and Fox News... there is your proof that relations with the people were actually getting better... there will probably be riots again, and we shall see if the hatred towards the US is back again, now that CNN and Fox News won't be able to make those connections due to the sanctions in place... means less information gets out and actually gives the Iranian Government more control over the narrative... much like they had when previous riots had occurred, like 2009, when very little video footage came out, unless it was from the government... and wait... sanctions were in place then..

    so yep... still going with my view on the effect that sanctions has on militaristic regimes that refuse to change, and oppress people. Sanctions (much like Cuba) keep them in power... open negotiations have actually worked in the past...
    Believe what you want I guess. You are using anecdotal evidence to describe results to a regime that has been lying to the western world for decades.

  8. #408

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Believe what you want I guess. You are using anecdotal evidence to describe results to a regime that has been lying to the western world for decades.
    i'm not using it to describe results to the regime... i'm talking about actually being able to, for the first time getting information from the people of the country and not from the regime... we so very often give these countries the power to keep their citizenry silent, because we take away their ability to communicate with us... this was the one situation where they were able to... because it wasn't a violation of sanctions for CNN and Fox News to actually pay citizens of Iran for information... for video... for reports... it was true access to the people of Iran and not from that Regime that yes, has been lying to the west for decades... and kept in power partially because of us closing off to them and their people...

    so yes, i will believe what i want to believe... because i heard from the people of Iran that things are horrible, and they want and need help... and that they don't believe everything their government tells them... so yes... a method other than the sanctions that help to keep that government in power, sounds like a better option if we want to have positive relations with those people going forward.

  9. #409

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    i'm not using it to describe results to the regime... i'm talking about actually being able to, for the first time getting information from the people of the country and not from the regime... we so very often give these countries the power to keep their citizenry silent, because we take away their ability to communicate with us... this was the one situation where they were able to... because it wasn't a violation of sanctions for CNN and Fox News to actually pay citizens of Iran for information... for video... for reports... it was true access to the people of Iran and not from that Regime that yes, has been lying to the west for decades... and kept in power partially because of us closing off to them and their people...

    so yes, i will believe what i want to believe... because i heard from the people of Iran that things are horrible, and they want and need help... and that they don't believe everything their government tells them... so yes... a method other than the sanctions that help to keep that government in power, sounds like a better option if we want to have positive relations with those people going forward.
    We don't have relations with those people you are talking about. We have relations (or not) with the Ayatollah.

  10. #410

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    We don't have relations with those people you are talking about. We have relations (or not) with the Ayatollah.
    right... because the US has only every had relations with legit governments and people of those governments... we never recognized or worked with people who oppose those governments...

    and we did have relations with them... Americans did... CNN, Fox News, maybe MSNBC if they weren't too busy just letting Rachel Maddow increase her own ego... Companies, both US and European were signing contracts, and making business deals with Iranian people... not just the government... but with the people.... so yes there were relations. now, most US companies were on US government contracts... but there absolutely was relations with the people and the outside world... the sanctions didn't just stop people from buying Iranian Oil... it stopped a lot of economic development deals that were in discussions and being worked out that was part of that "enrichment" of Iran that you felt wouldn't work.

    while no formal trade deal is in place between Iran and either the US, or Iran, in 2016 and 2017, Iranian good coming to the US and Europe saw significant increases, and US and EU goods to Iran also saw significant increases... so the trade was happening... and business deals with the citizenry of Iran was happening.

  11. #411

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by jedicurt View Post
    haha... first of all, i read news from many different sources, and always try to pull out the editorial for the facts in them... and yes, Iran is at a breaking point internally... and opening up sanctions and getting money to people and businesses, is the way to make positive steps going forward... the protests got their worst from 2017-2018... and at that time, there was information coming out of Iran about it... news organizations were getting information, people, individuals on the ground were working as correspondents and sources for international news agencies... for the first time every... we saw video of the riots from peoples cell phones, live on CNN and Fox News... there is your proof that relations with the people were actually getting better... there will probably be riots again, and we shall see if the hatred towards the US is back again, now that CNN and Fox News won't be able to make those connections due to the sanctions in place... means less information gets out and actually gives the Iranian Government more control over the narrative... much like they had when previous riots had occurred, like 2009, when very little video footage came out, unless it was from the government... and wait... sanctions were in place then..

    so yep... still going with my view on the effect that sanctions has on militaristic regimes that refuse to change, and oppress people. Sanctions (much like Cuba) keep them in power... open negotiations have actually worked in the past...
    That was done and they were given a king's ransom and about everything else they wanted. They only stepped up their mischief and terrorism funding to their proxies. Groups in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and other Gulf countries all saw huge inflows of new and upgraded weapons. Iran's military also became much more active sending out trainers and advisors to work with not just surrogates but directly with Assad and Russia.

    Iran has no intention of ever truly negotiating anything serious under the current regime. They are a hard-core revolutionary Shiite Islamist Fascists who will never give up power or moderate their hatred of the US and Israel. They also seek to dominate Islam over the Sunnis.

    You can't negotiate things they will never negotiate. The regime either needs to be ousted or die.

  12. #412

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post

    Iran has no intention of ever truly negotiating anything serious under the current regime. They are a hard-core revolutionary Shiite Islamist Fascists who will never give up power or moderate their hatred of the US and Israel. They also seek to dominate Islam over the Sunnis.

    You can't negotiate things they will never negotiate. The regime either needs to be ousted or die.
    Maybe it’s not our place to decide this. Maybe we need to just take a step back and let other countries work out their issues without our interference. We’ve wasted trillions of dollars, lost too many young lives and for what? The Taliban and ISIS aren’t gone. No one in the Middle East wants our input. Our country has become a repressive regime that has no business acting ‘holier than thou’.

  13. #413

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Maybe it’s not our place to decide this. Maybe we need to just take a step back and let other countries work out their issues without our interference. We’ve wasted trillions of dollars, lost too many young lives and for what? The Taliban and ISIS aren’t gone. No one in the Middle East wants our input. Our country has become a repressive regime that has no business acting ‘holier than thou’.
    That’s a hot take... We just need to back off and mind our own business and stop trying to interfere in Iran and N. Korea’s business... I mean, what’s the worst that can happen?

  14. #414

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    imma try and get to one of the debates and ask this guy about the central park 5

  15. #415

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Maybe itís not our place to decide this. Maybe we need to just take a step back and let other countries work out their issues without our interference. Weíve wasted trillions of dollars, lost too many young lives and for what? The Taliban and ISIS arenít gone. No one in the Middle East wants our input. Our country has become a repressive regime that has no business acting Ďholier than thouí.
    this is so out of touch

    the USA with out question the largest supporter of democratic ideals in the history of the world is "repressive"

    the left proves this by the support the USA gives to the ONLY DEMOCRACY in the middle east ..



    this is like a take from the Onion

  16. #416

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Maybe itís not our place to decide this. Maybe we need to just take a step back and let other countries work out their issues without our interference. Weíve wasted trillions of dollars, lost too many young lives and for what? The Taliban and ISIS arenít gone. No one in the Middle East wants our input. Our country has become a repressive regime that has no business acting Ďholier than thouí.
    There are opinions (jedicurt), then there is this.

    The US has been, is, and will continue to be a beacon to the rest of the world.

  17. #417

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Maybe it’s not our place to decide this. Maybe we need to just take a step back and let other countries work out their issues without our interference. We’ve wasted trillions of dollars, lost too many young lives and for what? The Taliban and ISIS aren’t gone. No one in the Middle East wants our input. Our country has become a repressive regime that has no business acting ‘holier than thou’.
    This has worked out so well in the past. I'd be all for letting the ME sort itself out. Israel would take care of the Iran issue in about 10 minutes. But the consequences....

  18. #418

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    There are opinions (jedicurt), then there is this.

    The US has been, is, and will continue to be a beacon to the rest of the world.
    exactly... cause while you and i disagree on the methods... we both agree that the US is the cornerstone to getting anything accomplished...

  19. #419

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    There are opinions (jedicurt), then there is this.

    The US has been, is, and will continue to be a beacon to the rest of the world.
    [citation needed]

    Views of the US have plummeted in recent years. We are beacons only in our own eyes.

  20. #420

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by betts View Post
    Maybe itís not our place to decide this. Maybe we need to just take a step back and let other countries work out their issues without our interference. Weíve wasted trillions of dollars, lost too many young lives and for what? The Taliban and ISIS arenít gone. No one in the Middle East wants our input. Our country has become a repressive regime that has no business acting Ďholier than thouí.
    Neither were the Nazi's after WWII so apparently that wasn't justified either in your world. Honestly, your comments more and more indicate you really have little geopolitical knowledge. You just have such a psychotic hatred for Trump that skews every fabric of your soul and leads you to believe things that are just plain silly. To say the US is a repressive regime is just ignorant. Exactly how have you been repressed? Tell us one thing you personally have been stopped from doing by the Trump Gestapo? Come on, just one way you've been repressed and your rights taken away? I don't think you would know repression if it hit you in the head. Try living in Cuba, Venezuela, South Africa, North Korea, China or most any Muslim country to learn what repression is.

    Then, you make a comment like so many who hate the police and can say nothing good about them - then scream about why there is crime in their neighborhood and where are the police. On the one hand you say everything Trump does is illegal and unconstitutional but on the next comment you want him to negotiate with people who hate our entire way of life. Negotiating with Hitler was a rousing success and negotiating with Iran is no different.

    Finally, don't give us crap about too many lives lost in the middle East. I lost many friends in my business in 9-11 to those butchers. I lost a good friend in the NYFD who was an early responder. Every life lost in the middle East was precious and l don't minimize any of them but put it in perspective, more lives were lost in one day many times during WWII. Far more young lives have been murdered in just Chicago during the war period than in the ME wars. Where is your outrage about the young lives there? Or is it just because Democrats control that city so all those minority deaths don't matter to you?

    Just sitting back and letting them work out their differences 50 years ago might have been acceptable. There cannot be 'tribal differences" that we can just ignore in the ME. Today there are billions of people, nuclear weapons, oil tankers that supply most of the world being sunk. Iran has its hands in virtually every problem area on this planet. You need to wake up to reality.

  21. #421

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliSciGuy View Post
    [citation needed]

    Views of the US have plummeted in recent years. We are beacons only in our own eyes.
    So you cite a poll? Ok then.

    We are the reason you and billions across the globe live past 40. We are the reason Europe isn't owned by Germany. We are the reason Africa has made any improvements at all. This isn't a matter of opinion either. Get out of your 2 year old history of the world and read a book.

  22. #422

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    So you cite a poll? Ok then.

    We are the reason you and billions across the globe live past 40. We are the reason Europe isn't owned by Germany. We are the reason Africa has made any improvements at all. This isn't a matter of opinion either. Get out of your 2 year old history of the world and read a book.
    I'm literally a professor of political science at an OKC area university, so asking me to get more learning in this area is hilarious. You're the one painting an incorrect (and incredibly racist - are you seriously saying colonization was a good thing for Africa?!) view of the world based on merging Tom Clancy novels and Sean Hannity talking points

  23. #423

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Quote Originally Posted by PoliSciGuy View Post
    I'm literally a professor of political science at an OKC area university, so asking me to get more learning in this area is hilarious. You're the one painting an incorrect (and incredibly racist - are you seriously saying colonization was a good thing for Africa?!) view of the world based on merging Tom Clancy novels and Sean Hannity talking points
    Alrighty then. Was colonization good for America then? Curious as to your take. Personally I think it was the single greatest thing to ever happen to this planet.

    And if you are so smart, don't do stupid stuff like use a modern day poll to somehow point out that US is bad or whatever you were trying to do. And even worse it is the opinion of one man. Not a policy, not the country, one ****ing man. This again, is what TDS looks like.

    Has everything this country done for the world been perfect? Certainly not. But on net, the world has benefited from this county like no other to have existed on this planet. This is NOT in dispute.

  24. #424

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    Depends on who you ask. If you ask a white dude with no sense of history, they’d probably say it was a good thing. If you ask folks who take into account the massive slaughter of indigenous people here, the centuries of slavery it brought in and the millions of Africans ripped from their homelands, coupled with the numerous actions we’ve committed abroad that has brought about the death and suffering of millions more, I’d say the answer is a lot more complicated.

  25. #425

    Default Re: Trumps Accomplishments

    It is an interesting question. Where would the land of North America be if Europeans hadn't colonized it? Well, 1) those we call Native Americans might still be only a bit further modernized because no one pushed them forward with advanced technology. The continent could be a fractured mish-mosh of lands claimed by various tribes that could still be warring with each other over boundaries. 2) the Chinese or Japanese might have colonized the land instead of Europeans which suggests an entirely different history or maybe it might have been Russians expanding their Alaskan take. Maybe Hispanic conquistadors or the French rule instead of English.

    There is virtually nowhere in the world where someone hasn't been conquered and dominated by someone else. Sure, the US can be apologetic for slavery and taking the lands from Native Americans but it's nothing that hadn't happened around the world historically.

    Even today in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, tribes still battle each other for power, wealth and land. I can understand Native American's and African American's being resentful, but stop and think about it, if it hadn't been one group of Europeans or Asians or Russians (yes, l know they are also Europeans], it would have been another. Native American tribes battled each other all the time and African American's fought and enslaved each other.

    Yes, it can be said colonialism brought societies into the modern age. You can also say those colonized may be resentful, but if it hadn't been one set of colonials, it would have been another that might have been far worse.

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