RFP south of arena

[DallasOkie086]

Parking revenue is part of the business plan...................... sheesh.

Ok, so this looks to be a brewery/restaurant which eases my concern. I do wonder about the operators. Maybe just a mini D&B would do better for longevity. Would a corporate brand be willing to pay the insurance (NNN) of the entire Thunder Alley complex? This could be an issue for finding a tenet.
I quite like the basketball structure -- it looks nice. However, considering we are trying to be innovative, a buffalo type fixture would've been more unique.

[BoulderSooner]

Was referring to BoulderSooner's post, not yours. We cross-posted.

the center section that will have a road/bridge is clearly public the sidewalks along both robinson and blvd also are clearly public ..

reminder the sidewalk in front houses in most cases is privaitly owned property but it is also in the public ROW infact in lots of cases property owners own to the middle line of streets ..

[shawnw]

Randy Hogan should be held to account for his past handling of OCURA land before being allowed to buy/develop more. While I'm not entirely unappreciative of what we have in Lower Bricktown (or his general contributions to the city), it is a far cry short of what was initially promised, but he got a killer deal for all that land, the majority of which is now surface parking (still hasn't been developed into a higher use 20 years later). Imagine for a second that we end up getting a fraction of what is promised here (as was done in LBT), and that it becomes mostly surface parking for 20+ years. We should learn from that experience.

[Ross MacLochness]

^^^If I understand correctly, there is some kind of contract prohibiting those surface lots from being developed, which IMO is even worse. But I agree with you 100%

[OKC Guy]

So your position is to give millionaires more handouts and build surface parking downtown because... the Thunder have been good for OKC? Not sure I'm following your civic or business rationale here.

Lets look at this a different way. We gave Cosco incentive money to build here yet we are not arguing over how they build their store or parking lot. We gave many other businesses money too and yet I never saw the outrage.

I think some are using the excuse of TIF money to rail on the project. What I mean is if no TIF money was given those same people would still be just as upset whoch is fine. So to me we should not use that they get TIF money as a reason to dislike it. Its ok to dislike it unrelated to TIF money.

Having said all that I understand we have zoning and planning boards to approve or disapprove of buildings in downtown, a HOA type setup so to speak. And thats great for buildings. I don’t think parking lots are covered other than maybe surrounding trees and foliage and other things to obscure it.

I understand some folk want the city built a certain way but I doubt there will ever be complete agreememt on what is best. Every city has this same argument too. I can see the value of having surface parking in a premo future area and others can’t. Its fine to disagree and not hate each other too. I am trying to show another point of view on a message board where it seems mlst posters are pro downtown and less supportive of out of downtown, so I get a lot of static by providing other points of view.

The SC is not efficient for me so I am glad to see se extra parking added in thos area. When the park is done I plan on visiting it and am hoping this parking is open to public, as its in a great location imo.

[OKC Guy]

One comment, everyone is so focused on parking lot.

But what about the open part of the building? This could become a haven for the homeless after hours since its covered. Does it have retractable doors to seal off at night? This is a key area and will have much visibility to tourists nad other visitors (OMNI, Convention center, Peake and Park). Not sure how would be handled nor if it will ever be a problem. But its worth mentioning

[David]

I think some are using the excuse of TIF money to rail on the project. What I mean is if no TIF money was given those same people would still be just as upset whoch is fine. So to me we should not use that they get TIF money as a reason to dislike it. Its ok to dislike it unrelated to TIF money..

Don't assume that people are using the TIF money as an excuse. Also, it is okay to dislike it because of the TIF money because you are not the arbiter of how and why people are allowed to like or dislike things. If anyone is Pete is, and his comment a page ago was:

This is a discussion forum.

If you don't like people debating these types of issues, then you should probably go elsewhere.

[OKC Guy]

Don't assume that people are using the TIF money as an excuse. Also, it is okay to dislike it because of the TIF money because you are not the arbiter of how and why people are allowed to like or dislike things. If anyone is Pete is, and his comment a page ago was:

Are you saying no one complained about TIF money?

And I like the project and have been expressing my point of view. Why is my points less valid than others? Is it because more folks don’t like it so that invalidates my views? I don’t run the board and have no control on others views and would not want anyone to stop expressing them.

On this project I am for it and get lambasted

On Streetcar I am against it and get lambasted

Is there a place here where I am supposed go check with someone on what my view should be and if it doesn’t match means I should not post in that topic? I am talking through posts on a board called OKC Talk. But if I need to ask what opinions are allowed please direct me to that rule or person to check with. I have not attacked posters first only repsonded in kind when attacked. I have been name called and not returned the favor. This place seems very clickish.

Thanks

[David]

Oh come on. You literally just said:

I think some are using the excuse of TIF money to rail on the project. What I mean is if no TIF money was given those same people would still be just as upset whoch is fine.

Pushing back against that is not you getting lambasted for your opinion, that is pushing back against you characterizing other people's opinions as being fundamentally dishonest. Feel free to express your own opinions of the project if you want, but that is not what just happened.

[OKC Guy]

Oh come on. You literally just said:



Pushing back against that is not you getting lambasted for your opinion, that is pushing back against you characterizing other people's opinions as being fundamentally dishonest. Feel free to express your own opinions of the project if you want, but that is not what just happened.

No. What I am saying is some folks are against it and I am ok with that its their right. But a few added in the caveat because of TIF making it seem to validate their opinion more.

I think of against it then you are against it. TIF money should jave nothing to do with it we give TIF to lots of businesses.

I also expressed there are zoning and other boards needing to approve it so the business can’t just create something awful either. Some may not like it but at least it will have to pass some type of scrutiny.

Then I brought up a valid question asking if the open part can be closed otherwise it might become haven, and promptly got 2 troll replies. And then you go after me. And my question is topic related and valid. This is a high visibility corner and if the covered part is not closeable it “may” become a homeless or vagrant shelter. I have nothing against them either but if it happens that could be a detraction for those at OMNI, Convention or even Park. Again its a valid question and I stared of its closeable then its not an issue.

To repeat its ok to to disagree and its healthy to discuss things. If we are all supposed to have the same view thats where it is not healthy imo.

[David]

TIF money requests is an completely valid critique of a project, why do you keep insisting that it should not be? As you keep repeating, other people get to have opinions.

[OKC Guy]

TIF money requests is an completely valid critique of a project, why do you keep insisting that it should not be? As you keep repeating, other people get to have opinions.

We all pay taxes on everything in this city including roads and other infrastructure yet get no or litte input. I know this is a business but TIF is set up to incentivize business to build or move or improve. Without it some projects may not even happen. And its ok to complain about it my take it has no relevence as we give TIF and jncentives to many businesses like Costco. I am betting without paying Costco they don’t come here. In my opinion it will pay for the extra incentives by drawing shoppers from other than OKC. So the extra tax collections over time will more than pay for it. And not to mention construction spending and workers who neither would be there without incentives. Its a huge ripple. Even though this Peake land project is not to the same scale its still a vaid use of money and adds value to the city. I saw lots less complaining about Costco getting money but to note some did complain about getting it. The Peake complaint is different they are not complaining they are getting TIF as much as saying because they get TIF then that better justifies complaints. My take is with or without TIF some would not approve because of design. All I’m trying to do is seperate the two. If people hate it they hate it and its their right to hate it. And I am not stopping anyone from not liking it again its my opinion.

I think we beat this one to death. I’d like to hear more about the open part and of its closeable or not and the potiential problems of its always open yet covered. I’ll let you have the last word.

[catch22]

TIF money requests is an completely valid critique of a project, why do you keep insisting that it should not be? As you keep repeating, other people get to have opinions.

David let me do you a large favor and quote this post:

This message is hidden because OKC Guy is on your ignore list.

[OKC Guy]

David let me do you a large favor and quote this post:

Another post adding nothing to discussion.

[bchris02]

Another post adding nothing to discussion.

How's the weather in Moscow this morning?

[Pete]

Let's please get back to the topic at hand.

General rule of thumb: Debate the posts (opinion) and not the poster (making it personal).

[Laramie]

Thunder Alley entertainment complex proposed for downtown OKC

The Oklahoman
Published on Apr 3, 2019

The Oklahoma City Thunder is teaming up with Hogan Property Co., developer of Lower Bricktown, to build Thunder Alley, an entertainment and dining complex proposed for the former Interstate 40 right-of-way just south of Chesapeake Energy Arena.

[OKC Guy]

Let's please get back to the topic at hand.

General rule of thumb: Debate the posts (opinion) and not the poster (making it personal).

Great advice and not just for this thread.

Pete, out of curiosity is there a handy dandy list of who has received TIF or other incentive money in the past 5 years? If so is it in order of how much for each recipient? I was curious if this data is compiled somewhere and if not it would be good info to have. Not surexjow hard it would be nor where to go to gather it all either. If we do find it maybe a pinned thread somewhere listing the info for reference material would be handy.

[Pete]

^

Read this summary article I wrote a couple of years ago, which needs to be updated:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=39599


You'll see that almost all TIF awards fall into the range of 5-8% in terms of total development costs.

This project is asking for fully 15%. Also, I'm not aware of TIF money (or any public assistance) being used for what is primarily a food and drink establishment.

[OKC Guy]

^

Read this summary article I wrote a couple of years ago, which needs to be updated:

https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.php?t=39599


You'll see that almost all TIF awards fall into the range of 5-8% in terms of total development costs.

This project is asking for fully 15%. Also, I'm not aware of TIF money (or any public assistance) being used for what is primarily a food and drink establishment.

Thanks for the link thats great info.

Maybe if TIF was capped at say 7.5% of project value would be a good rule to implement. I agree this one is a much higher percentage and I was not aware until now so the info you posted does put it in better perspective. I am still for the project but would like to see TIF capped at 7.5%, and if higher would need a vote.

One thing I noticed it seems pretty interesting how these all come up:

“After the TIF District is established, City staff alone decides which projects are worthy of further consideration. If staff decides a project application isn't worthy of TIF funds, the process stops there. Where an application has been brought for council vote, 100% have been approved”

So who is this “staff” that decide and how are they vetted?

Thats getting away from the topic some but since its 15% vs the the typical less than 10% - why did they agree on so much more above even other highs? I will caution the data is not updated so there may be other projects in this range since, but if not this does seem awfully high in comparison. The much higher value does have the feel of an insider or “knowing someone” to it.

We have 2 seperate yet related topics here it seems:

1. Like or not like actual project

2. Why so high of TIF percentage compared to norms.

I am for the project but against the amount of TIF which is an interesting position. I’d like to see who apprved that much and any connections they have to recipients of money.

[Plutonic Panda]

Don't come into my neighborhood and demand a parking space for yourself on the off chance you may come downtown and i wont go to your neighborhood and demand density and walkability.

Oh please... that is such weak logic. If everyone operated that way nothing would get done. Mind you most people in OKC fund sales tax live in the suburbs so don’t bite the hand that feeds you.

This project has nothing to do with your neighborhood as it isn’t in an established neighborhood nor are there any housing units near here.

[shawnw]

There will be housing units directly across the street. Just sayin.

[Quicker]

There will be housing units directly across the street. Just sayin.

Which would have never been build without parking being built for the tenants...just sayin

[shawnw]

There's nothing wrong with appropriately applied structured parking. The issue we're having here is surface parking.

[BDP]

Lets look at this a different way. We gave Cosco incentive money to build here yet we are not arguing over how they build their store or parking lot. We gave many other businesses money too and yet I never saw the outrage.

Maybe it's not what you meant to say, but your analogy is solid. Giving Costco public incentives to build here without any qualifications on how they build their store or parking lot(s) is not a good idea.

You may not have seen outrage. They may not have tweeted or posted their concerns on the internet , but I know that plenty of well established, long standing local businesses, that never received a "Gift of the State" to do business here, but will now have to compete with Costco, that aren't really happy about it, even if on principle alone.

So, the public tax incentive financing is a factor. It's the whole reason people have justification in having a voice in what is being built and how. Most of the posts seem to understand this. Even those that hate the 70+ space surface parking lot seem nuanced on this point.. Even if they don't like the lot, most seem to contain the sentiment that if the developer pays the full market value for the land without any government hand out, then, well, then they get to lay down some asphalt where they want and stripe it any way they want.

But that's not what is happening here. Or with Costco.

They're both projects where the investors have asked the state to decide if they're worthy of a publicly financed economic advantage over other interests. And, because of that, people will feel the right to discuss the worthiness of a few dozen parking spaces associated with the project.