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  1. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    In the end, I hate it for him and his family and her and her family.

    Courts and juries are so fickle. Re-try this with a different mix of jurors and you possibly get a different result. I laugh when people's response to these things are "well, a jury heard it and rendered their decision, therefore it must be right."

    Was reading through recent appellant decisions in Oklahoma (they email them out every week) and saw a pretty good example of the fickleness of juries. Guy appealed because he thought his sentence was unfair (20 years) because of an erroneous assertion of a previous felony conviction. So, the OCCA sided with him and he got a new day in court for a new jury sentencing...... this time they gave him life! (oops).

  2. #102

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    I just have to ask: would this be different if the victim were white? Not at all playing the race card, just curious if the outrage would be as high.

  3. #103

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    I don't know how rare what happened really is. The circumstances of the case propelled it into the consciousness of many people. Most I never hear about.

  4. #104

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    I just have to ask: would this be different if the victim were white? Not at all playing the race card, just curious if the outrage would be as high.
    There wouldn't be any outrage as the sentence would not have been 10 years if the defendant were a person of color.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    I just have to ask: would this be different if the victim were white? Not at all playing the race card, just curious if the outrage would be as high.
    You'd have never heard about it and the officer would have either been cleared of the shooting or would have pled to a lesser charge.

  6. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    Because I've always felt this was a textbook manslaughter case. After watching the trial my opinion has not changed. She was very negligent, the situation was avoidable, but in the end there was no malice intent in my mind. I feel a felony record, and a short period of confinement are all that is necessary. The fact so many others in the apartment community admitted to similarly making the same mistakes as to parking levels and even trying to walk into other people's apartments only strengthens my opinion. Extended confinement serves no purpose other than punishment and additional burden on society. I hope she gets out in 5 and is able to find peace and success.
    Just read this (I really hadn't been keeping up with the trial, just reading headlines and skimming articles), so she did actually have intent, she said so herself:

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cour...d-know-better/

    Hermus, a former police officer himself, noted that Guyger shot Jean directly in the chest, right where she was trained as a police officer to shoot.

    "When you aimed and pulled the trigger at Mr. Jean shooting him in center mass right where you are trained you intended to kill Mr. Jean?" he asked.

    "I did," she said.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    You'd have never heard about it and the officer would have either been cleared of the shooting or would have pled to a lesser charge.
    I disagree with most of that, but if EVERYTHING else were equal (charged with and convicted of murder, sentenced to 10 years) would there be an outcry that the cop got off easy if the victim were white? I think she should have gotten more, but I would think that if the vic were any color. I don't think it was murder, so that was weird they convicted her of that. But yeah, I think people are so mad over the sentence, when the crime she was convicted of was greater than what it should have been.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    I disagree with most of that, but if EVERYTHING else were equal (charged with and convicted of murder, sentenced to 10 years) would there be an outcry that the cop got off easy if the victim were white? I think she should have gotten more, but I would think that if the vic were any color. I don't think it was murder, so that was weird they convicted her of that. But yeah, I think people are so mad over the sentence, when the crime she was convicted of was greater than what it should have been.
    Without the race angle, the media would never have picked up on this and it wouldn't be a national story. Hell.. we have a much more dramatic murder case developing right here in Oklahoma/Okmulgee County, but there's no race angle, so no national attention. Homicides aren't all that uncommon. Homicides by cop aren't all that uncommon. What sells right now is cops killing black people they have no business killing. I'm glad the media is bringing attention to that issue as the coverage, I think, is making a difference, but it is what it is. Without the race angle, this is just a fairly remarkable homicide, but still one of many.

  9. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    I disagree with most of that, but if EVERYTHING else were equal (charged with and convicted of murder, sentenced to 10 years) would there be an outcry that the cop got off easy if the victim were white? I think she should have gotten more, but I would think that if the vic were any color. I don't think it was murder, so that was weird they convicted her of that. But yeah, I think people are so mad over the sentence, when the crime she was convicted of was greater than what it should have been.
    Doesn't matter what you think (because you weren't part of the grand jury), and it's not weird that they convicted her of murder. There are completely valid reasons why she was charged with murder and not manslaughter or a lesser crime. I believe she was charged appropriately. Here are two sources to start with.

    https://www.okctalk.com/showthread.p...41#post1056941

    https://www.wfaa.com/article/news/sp...4-3ad192a5fb29

  10. #110

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    I always thought the distinguishing factor for first degree was not intent, but pre-determination. Maybe I'm wrong.

  11. #111

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    This woman killed an innocent man who was inside his own apartment getting ready to eat a bowl of ice cream. She was also more worried about her job than helping the man she shot. It astounds me there are so many people ok with the 10 year sentence.

  12. #112

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I always thought the distinguishing factor for first degree was not intent, but pre-determination. Maybe I'm wrong.
    Under Oklahoma law and jury instructions "predetermination" can be formed a split second before the act. See post 25 and jury instructions for murder. Texas may be different. Oklahoma law uses the term "malice aforethought" not premediation.

  13. #113

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Under Oklahoma law and jury instructions predetermination can be formed a split second before the act. See post 25 and jury instructions for murder. Texas may be different.
    ty

  14. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outhunder View Post
    This woman killed an innocent man who was inside his own apartment getting ready to eat a bowl of ice cream. She was also more worried about her job than helping the man she shot. It astounds me there are so many people ok with the 10 year sentence.
    Just to clarify, I'm not really OK with it, but it's better than her just getting off scot-free like so many other bad cops have.

  15. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Just read this (I really hadn't been keeping up with the trial, just reading headlines and skimming articles), so she did actually have intent, she said so herself:

    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cour...d-know-better/

    Hermus, a former police officer himself, noted that Guyger shot Jean directly in the chest, right where she was trained as a police officer to shoot.

    "When you aimed and pulled the trigger at Mr. Jean — shooting him in center mass right where you are trained — you intended to kill Mr. Jean?" he asked.

    "I did," she said.
    So, at what point then would someone who aims a gun and pulls a trigger not have intent then? Of course she intended to kill her target. You don't shoot to wound. She didn't intend to kill someone that was in their own apartment minding heir own business. She intended to kill what she thought was an intruder in her own apartment. I didn't think I had to get that specific.

    If she would have answered "no" then they would have attacked her for not being honest. That's the problem with "intent" - it gets twisted and turned into malice.

  16. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Outhunder View Post
    This woman killed an innocent man who was inside his own apartment getting ready to eat a bowl of ice cream. She was also more worried about her job than helping the man she shot. It astounds me there are so many people ok with the 10 year sentence.
    I'm not okay with it. I think it should have been LESS. AND I agree with everything else you said.

  17. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    So, at what point then would someone who aims a gun and pulls a trigger not have intent then? Of course she intended to kill her target. You don't shoot to wound. She didn't intend to kill someone that was in their own apartment minding heir own business. She intended to kill what she thought was an intruder in her own apartment. I didn't think I had to get that specific.

    If she would have answered "no" then they would have attacked her for not being honest. That's the problem with "intent" - it gets twisted and turned into malice.
    Here's how it's all defined in Texas, and I think she was charged appropriately.

    https://www.medlinfirm.com/blog/the-...rder-in-texas/

  18. #118

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.


  19. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSteveHunt View Post
    different standards apply all over the place. If neurenberg laws were applied here, David Holt's pathetic career would have been over ages ago.
    Don't you mean Nuremberg Laws Steve. I think you might have your history a little mixed up, but to be fair you have a lot of things mixed up. You may be one of the most ignorant people I have ever interacted with. Every time you make a post you make us all collectively dumber.

  20. #120

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Just a coincidence?

    Botham Jean's neighbor, a key witness in Amber Guyger trial, shot to death in Dallas
    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crim...suspect-loose/

  21. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Boss View Post
    Just a coincidence?

    Botham Jean's neighbor, a key witness in Amber Guyger trial, shot to death in Dallas
    https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crim...suspect-loose/
    Yep. I'd put money on that.

    All of the articles highlight he was a witness, but conveniently leave out anything that's actually relevant to his death.

  22. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    Yep. I'd put money on that.

    All of the articles highlight he was a witness, but conveniently leave out anything that's actually relevant to his death.
    Is that area/neighborhood known for drive-bys? Wonder how many have happened around there in the past? If it has had a lot happen, weird that a cop would choose that area to live in. If not, then the timing is curious and yeah, more details would be nice.

  23. #123

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    I haven't been able to find the answer. How was she able to get in the apartment and l thought the doors automatically locked from early accounts.

  24. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    I haven't been able to find the answer. How was she able to get in the apartment and l thought the doors automatically locked from early accounts.
    There was a maintenance request to fix the door. It didn't always latch automatically. At least one other resident had the same issue with their lock (don't recall if it was trial testimony or in the apartment survey that was conducted.

  25. #125

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Is that area/neighborhood known for drive-bys? Wonder how many have happened around there in the past? If it has had a lot happen, weird that a cop would choose that area to live in. If not, then the timing is curious and yeah, more details would be nice.
    It's just south of downtown, which ain't the greatest. And it's right next to the Dallas PD. The area is experiencing quite a bit of gentrification though as of late.

    Apparently the murder of the friend happened in the medical district (Parkland Hospital), which I didn't really think was all that dangerous but I could be wrong.

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