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  1. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by baralheia View Post
    If the "Open up! Open up!" line gets corroborated, then that's where it steps past manslaughter in my mind. If she thought it was her apartment, why did she feel the need to say that? She had a key that operated the lock and deadbolt on her door; there'd be no reason to shout commands like that in her own apartment. Plus there's a picture floating around on social media which alleges that the officer and the victim knew each other and hung out together at least once. I am not sure yet if it's real but it certainly is concerning. Plus, don't most apartments have security locks that can't be opened from the outside? I think most people would have that locked at night... I personally don't think we have the whole story here, because what we know of her story so far seems... suspect (to me, anyway).
    I read somewhere about the picture - it's of Jean with 3 of his co-workers, and the cop apparently just looks similar to one of them, it's not her. Not sure if that's been completely validated yet, though.

    Also, their apartments were on different floors, and his had a red rug in front of it. Her excuse is that he didn't follow verbal orders, so she shot him twice. Just completely f-ing horrible and stupid on her part - she has no business being a cop if she can't figure out the next steps to take, aside from shooting someone in the chest twice, if she's on the wrong floor, her key doesn't work, and a red doormat is present.

  2. #27

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny d View Post
    No, not at all...at the time, she thought he was a burglar. It is more proof of it being a mistake (a punishable one, but a mistake nonetheless).
    I wonder what people would think if he had killed her because "he thought she was a burglar". I don't want to fill in any blanks, but from what we know, it makes more sense for him to think that than her.

    I understand the perspective, but why has "oops" become one the best defenses for killing people, especially when a police officer does it? Is her defense better or worse since this reads like a "double oops"? I may be wrong, but it seems that's usually a compounding factor, not a mitigating one.

  3. #28

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    I still don't know a ton about this case, but the story being floated right now is just unbelievable. I suspect more plausible facts will come forward, and I can't imagine a scenario where they are better for the cop. I'm pretty sure the "wrong apartment' story will easily be the most flattering of all the stories that come out.

  4. #29

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Martin View Post
    open and shut case, johnson. i saw this once before when i was a rookie... apparently this guy broke in and hung up pictures of his family everywhere.
    ... No.. no, paperwork... let's just sprinkle some crack on him and get out of here.

  5. #30

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    And if true, then we wouldn't have the need for degrees of murder and we'd simply say all murder is the same and we'd lump more manslaughter cases into murder cases. ISure, prosecutors argue "split second intent", but fortunately, and often, juries do not agree.
    The jury sure bought it with Ersland, right?

  6. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    The jury sure bought it with Ersland, right?
    Totally different set of circumstances - and you should know that. Ersland was clearly murder by legal definition (but I would have been fine with manslaughter and little or no prison).

    Apparently you forgot a much more recent and more pertinent example..... Chasity Carey

    Or, even to an extent the case of Officer Betty Jo Shelby.

  7. #32

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.


  8. #33

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    Totally different set of circumstances - and you should know that. Ersland was clearly murder by legal definition (but I would have been fine with manslaughter and little or no prison).

    Apparently you forgot a much more recent and more pertinent example..... Chasity Carey
    Ersland is a killer and a liar and a sociopath who executed one, attempted to execute a second teenager after he was no longer a threat. I have no problem with what happened to him.

    I was just pointing out a situation where the jury followed the law and did the right thing. I find her defense in this case to be pretty sketchy on its face. I don't know anyone who lives in an apartment to have ever gone inside the wrong apartment unless they were in an altered state.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Ersland is a killer and a liar and a sociopath who executed one, attempted to execute a second teenager after he was no longer a threat. I have no problem with what happened to him.

    I was just pointing out a situation where the jury followed the law and did the right thing. I find her defense in this case to be pretty sketchy on its face. I don't know anyone who lives in an apartment to have ever gone inside the wrong apartment unless they were in an altered state.
    And even if they attempted to, or successfully entered the wrong apartment (unlocked or propped open door), it is pretty much immediately clear from several senses that you are not in a familiar place which should be your number one clue to do an about face and promptly make your exit.

    Even if it is dark you will notice that it smells different. Like it or not we all have our own fairly unique scent. It’s how bloodhounds find matching clothing articles thousands of feet apart in a field. While we can’t really identify the smell, we know immediately if we smell someone else’s house. It smells different but we don’t know how. Their scent is on their couch, dirty clothes waiting to be washed, and all of the other things they have lying around. It simply doesn’t smell like our home.

    Even if it is dark, why did she not turn the light on? Doing so would have immediately identified her mistaken location in several ways:

    A) She would have reached for where she knows the light is, and she would not have found it. A good sign that you are not where you think you are

    B) She would have reached for the light and found it (due to similar construction). At the speed of light she would have had light feeding her sense of sight. It does not take long to realize that where you think you are is not the same as where you are.

    While someone might be trained that going into the unknown is part of your job, she should NOT have still been in that mindset when she was going into “her home”. Open the door: smells weird; flip on the light: crap I’m in the wrong place. Retreat.

    Instead whether or not she turned on the light she continued into unknown territory when she should
    Not have. I’ve come home to my apartment before to find my breaker was tripped somehow. I opened the door, reached around to turn the light on and the switch did nothing. You know what I did? I exited back into the light of the common hallway. Turned on my flashlight on my phone and dialed 911 and had my hand ready to press the call button. I entered my apartment again and cleared all of the doors and rooms to my breaker panel and flipped the breaker back on and I had light. I then made sure I was alone in the remainder of my house. Point being: if something doesn’t look or feel right; go back to last place you felt safe and re-evaluate. There’s no reason she should have continued because there should have been several red flags indicating that she was not where she thought she was.

  10. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    ...I was just pointing out a situation where the jury followed the law and did the right thing. I find her defense in this case to be pretty sketchy on its face. I don't know anyone who lives in an apartment to have ever gone inside the wrong apartment unless they were in an altered state.
    Well, the both of us could certainly cherry pick cases all day long to support our argument if we wanted. The reality is, there is certainly a strong defense to murder and not nearly as strong a criminal defense to manslaughter.

    I don't get everyone's inability to admit this officer made a tragic mistake. A mistake she should and will pay dearly for (though not as dearly as her victim did).

    She hadn't lived in the complex long. She was coming home from a very long shift. We have no idea what else was going on in her life that may have preoccupied her. She parked on the wrong floor (4 instead of 3) and went to the apartment directly above her's. The complex is pretty sterile looking with all the floors looking the same. She went to open the door and it was already ajar and came open. I'm sure at that point that cold chill we've probably all experienced came over her and she probably blocked out everything else and got extreme tunnel vision. She saw a shadowy figure in what she thought was her home. She called out, the victim most likely stood there thinking "WTH?" and he was killed.

    This is yet another perfect example of why, while I'm CLEET trained and licensed to carry a gun, I never have.

    I can think of dozens of examples of similar situations where I was simply in autopilot and made a mistake that could have ended tragically; I've run a stop light or stop sign in the past and I don't recall even realizing they were there. My mind even tricked me once into thinking I thought I saw a light turn green and I drove into an intersection while the light was clearly still red. I've sat down in the wrong car in a parking lot before - totally froze up for a second when I realized what I had done and I was fearful the owner was nearby and thought I was breaking in. I've had to take a minute to try and recall where I parked and even gone to a store and then had to call and ask the wife what it was I had gone to the store to get...... (crap, I may have alzheimers!) Most of these examples I clearly blame on being inattentive or distracted by other things going on in my mind.

    I don't think anyone here is calling for Guyger to get a slap on the wrist. A manslaughter conviction can have extremely serious consequences - but also allows for a much lower range of punishment.

  11. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    ...I don't know anyone who lives in an apartment to have ever gone inside the wrong apartment unless they were in an altered state.
    I have.

    Stepped off an elevator into a hallway that looked identical to mine, walked right through the (unlocked) door of what I thought was my apartment (which I expected to be unlocked at the time), thought, “who moved the furniture?” Then thought “wait...did we get NEW furniture?” Then thought “WHAT THE HELL IS THIS DOG DOING ON THE FURNITURE?!”

    Only THEN did it occur to me that I got off the elevator on the wrong floor. All of those things happened and it NEVER occurred to me that it wasn’t my apartment until the dog sat up and looked at me. Multiple other times I’ve put my key into a lock on a door that looked exactly like mine (on a different floor). Super easy to do when distracted with other stuff (phone calls, texts, work worry, whatever).

    I also routinely have difficulty remembering which floor I’ve parked on in my parking garage at work, sometimes because I haven’t paid attention when driving up the ramp and just drive til there is an open space.

    The wrong floor of the parking garage/door ajar thing is very easy for me to believe, actually. When it is something that you do every day as a matter of routine it is super easy to get distracted and accidentally deviate from it without realizing, especially when you are dealing with a place that offers a bunch of repetitive, mostly identical options.

    That said, an LEO should be held to a higher standard in a situation like this. They have very specific training regarding recognizing and dealing with dangerous situations, and in discharging their weapons. If the story is accurate, had a responsibility once she sensed something was wrong. I don’t know what that is, since I’m not an LEO, but I don’t believe for a second that her response was by the book. It can’t be.
    NOTICE: I WORK FOR A DOWNTOWN TOURIST ATTRACTION

  12. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    ...I don't get everyone's inability to admit this officer made a tragic mistake. A mistake she should and will pay dearly for (though not as dearly as her victim did).
    I think the issue is that it has the unfortunate undercurrent of race that is gripping and crippling our country. Everybody is running to their corners, and annoyed by the intractability of people on opposite sides of the issue. Half of our society believes that every single time a PoC is arrested or law enforcement uses force on them that it is a continuation of and example of racial injustice (which clearly DOES exist), and the other half believes that law enforcement is always in the right, and even if constitutional protections are occasionally trampled a bit it’s OK, because ‘murrica.

    Sometimes it seems like there is only a tiny sliver left who thinks institutionalized racism AND legitimate uses of force by law enforcement are not mutually exclusive, and who are willing to believe that sometimes individual situations can fall outside the respective narrative that they are pushing.

    Quote Originally Posted by BBatesokc View Post
    This is yet another perfect example of why, while I'm CLEET trained and licensed to carry a gun, I never have...
    Agreed. I grew up around guns, have owned guns, might own them again at some point. But the idea of carrying one on a daily basis has zero appeal to me. The level of responsibility for its safekeeping and use are incredible. And though I’ve had a (very) few moments in my 51 years where at the time I might at the time have pulled a gun if I had one, after my heart stopped racing and I had time to reflect I’m glad I didn’t have one at the time. They add a level of complication and danger to the situation that many cannot appreciate until after the gun is used. In retrospect I have never been in a situation where I NEEDED a gun (knock on wood).
    NOTICE: I WORK FOR A DOWNTOWN TOURIST ATTRACTION

  13. #38

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    This embarrassment of a cop needs the fast track death Penalty ASAP.

  14. #39

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urbanized View Post
    I have...
    I've had similar experiences, but with confusing someone else's car with mine. I'm pretty sure that if I shot someone because I was confused about which car was whose, the "oops" defense wouldn't be a very good one, but maybe I'm wrong.

  15. #40

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    I totally could understand that state of mind could lead to this outcome, however that doesn't excuse anyone from the repercussions of not being aware of your surroundings.

  16. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Drake View Post
    This embarrassment of a cop needs the fast track death Penalty ASAP.
    Not even close to a rational statement.

  17. #42

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Drake View Post
    This embarrassment of a cop needs the fast track death Penalty ASAP.
    Disgusting comment. Cop hater are we? She should pay for what she did but it's not like she went there looking to kill anyone.

  18. #43

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Drake View Post
    This embarrassment of a cop needs the fast track death Penalty ASAP.
    This statement drew comments of disgusting and not rational. I find that interesting considering that is basically what happened to Mr. Jean. Substitute the word man for cop and that is what this woman decided. She then proceeded to carry out the sentence. By her own description she executed an unidentified silhouette without turning on a light. Accidentally entering the wrong apartment was a mistake and is excusable. Choosing to us deadly force against the person that you find there without ascertaining the necessity for it was a choice. Her choice was not rational and the result is beyond disgusting.

  19. #44

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by RodH View Post
    This statement drew comments of disgusting and not rational. I find that interesting considering that is basically what happened to Mr. Jean. Substitute the word man for cop and that is what this woman decided. She then proceeded to carry out the sentence. By her own description she executed an unidentified silhouette without turning on a light. Accidentally entering the wrong apartment was a mistake and is excusable. Choosing to us deadly force against the person that you find there without ascertaining the necessity for it was a choice. Her choice was not rational and the result is beyond disgusting.
    A society that carries out "sentences' that swiftly is not a society I want to be a part of, hence the negative comments. We must be better than the criminals.

  20. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    She should pay for what she did but it's not like she went there looking to kill anyone.
    Just to play Devil's advocate here, how do you know that?

  21. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by StuckInTheCapitol825 View Post
    Just to play Devil's advocate here, how do you know that?
    I share MugofBeers’s sentiment and my reply would be, because there is absolutely zero evidence to the contrary.

  22. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    The only evidence you have is what you've read.
    If you believe this was a simple "oops" moment for a tired officer, I have swampland in Florida for sale.

  23. Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by StuckInTheCapitol825 View Post
    The only evidence you have is what you've read.
    If you believe this was a simple "oops" moment for a tired officer, I have swampland in Florida for sale.
    Based on what exactly? You're saying, "don't believe what you're being told by investigators, instead believe in my paranoia, bias and baseless spewing...." GOT IT!

  24. #49

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Quote Originally Posted by StuckInTheCapitol825 View Post
    The only evidence you have is what you've read.
    If you believe this was a simple "oops" moment for a tired officer, I have swampland in Florida for sale.
    I tend to agree although that's just pure speculation based on nothing more than my gut. Let's just hope this is fairly investigated and the truth is protected.
    Don't hassle me, I'm local.

  25. #50

    Default Re: Dallas cop goes in wrong apartment and kills resident.

    Something kind of similar happened (reverse scenario) with this dude that use to post on gopokes.com
    He was a drunk...use to go to a local bar and would leave his keys at home so he wouldn't be tempted to drive
    when he got back, something like that. Anyway, one night he was so drunk he went thru the window of the wrong
    apartment and the guy corrected him, guided him out and pointed where to go. A bit later, he did it again and the
    guy blew his brains out.

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