Electric Vehicles

[jn1780]

The press can tout EV's all they want, but driving around OKC, all I see is new convenience store with (gas) fuel sales....

As much as I would love to have one, I haven't heard of anybody that uses it for their primary car, with a family larger than 4 people....

BTW, Tesla is allowing non-Tesla's to charge in Europe and will do so soon in the US. They will have an adaptor for the charger. With their tremendous advantage with their supercharger network, I don't know why they aren't the default.

Related article. https://www.notebookcheck.net/Tesla-....668196.0.html

A standard will eventually come. Heck the EU is finally forcing Apple to ditch their proprietary chargers and switch to USB type C by 2024. At least Tesla is moving in the right direction already.

[Dob Hooligan]

On a related note, I have this crazy theory that one of the things behind the "Super C Store" craze is Big Oil planning for the future. Just like we aren't going to be 90% electric cars in 10 years, we aren't going to be 90 gasoline in 30. If they can make food, beer and car washing a critical part of everyday driving and fueling, they can be positioned at the forefront of the electric charging biz.

[catch22]

I think it has more to do with fast food continuing to get more expensive and unrealiable. It’s very easy to spend $10-$15 and wait 20 minutes from joining the line to pulling out with your (hopefully correct) order. If I can pull into Kum and Go, get a drink and a cheap hot dog and bag of chips to hold me over until dinner and be in and out in 5 minutes and only spend a few bucks it is a no brained versus the “fast” food gamble.

[April in the Plaza]

On a related note, I have this crazy theory that one of the things behind the "Super C Store" craze is Big Oil planning for the future. Just like we aren't going to be 90% electric cars in 10 years, we aren't going to be 90 gasoline in 30. If they can make food, beer and car washing a critical part of everyday driving and fueling, they can be positioned at the forefront of the electric charging biz.

The margins on prepared food are way better than the margins on gas or anything else they sell in the store. I’m a bit surprised that OnCue hasn’t tried to hit that angle a little harder (a la Sheetz or WaWa).

[Teo9969]

On a related note, I have this crazy theory that one of the things behind the "Super C Store" craze is Big Oil planning for the future. Just like we aren't going to be 90% electric cars in 10 years, we aren't going to be 90 gasoline in 30. If they can make food, beer and car washing a critical part of everyday driving and fueling, they can be positioned at the forefront of the electric charging biz.

But big oil is not behind "Super C Stores". In a lot of ways, OnCue couldn't care less about big oil, in fact the higher the oil price the worse they probably do.

Just look at QT expanding to *checks notes* the ur.. *checks notes again* yes, that's rig...wait, no that can't be correct *checks notes one last time* Seriously?! The urgent care business????!!!!!

I think that tells us how much C Stores are trying to diversify away from gasoline.

[DowntownMan]

But big oil is not behind "Super C Stores". In a lot of ways, OnCue couldn't care less about big oil, in fact the higher the oil price the worse they probably do.

Just look at QT expanding to *checks notes* the ur.. *checks notes again* yes, that's rig...wait, no that can't be correct *checks notes one last time* Seriously?! The urgent care business????!!!!!

I think that tells us how much C Stores are trying to diversify away from gasoline.

Except I believe one of oncues biggest investor is Phillips 66

[okatty]

^That is correct

[Rover]

Except I believe one of oncues biggest investor is Phillips 66

Big oil is generally investing in alternative energy and diversifying.

[Jeepnokc]

New tax credits for 2023 but lots of restrictions. Not sure I understand the income/price restriction if the goal is to encourage people to drive EVs. I would consider getting an EV next year but won't qualify for the credit. I also don't see where a business would qualify. Glad to see it includes used vehicles though

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/2023-el...dit-questions/

[fortpatches]

I think the goal of the price restriction is to try and bring down the cost of EVs in general. By having price restrictions, there should be a customer push for cars within those price ranges.
As for the income restrictions, I am not as sure, maybe so the market of reasonably priced cars is focused on those that would normally buy in that price range instead of people "buying down" or something?

[Pete]

Germany has started experimenting with highways that actually recharge EV's as you drive.

The tech is similar to wireless chargers for cell phones.

It's very early of course, but the idea is that cars would need much smaller and lighter battery packs because the vehicles would be continuously recharging.


It's going to be fascinating to see where all this is headed.

[PaddyShack]

Germany has started experimenting with highways that actually recharge EV's as you drive.

The tech is similar to wireless chargers for cell phones.

It's very early of course, but the idea is that cars would need much smaller and lighter battery packs because the vehicles would be continuously recharging.


It's going to be fascinating to see where all this is headed.

Don't the street cars use something similar, when they are off the catenary lines that are some in ground charging places?

[BoulderSooner]

Don't the street cars use something similar, when they are off the catenary lines that are some in ground charging places?

not ours

[Pete]

Yeah, the way our streetcar system works is it uses the catenary lines to recharge batteries for power in the areas without the wires.

[Bunty]

ANALYSIS: Stillwater residents may struggle to take full advantage of EV tax credit

https://www.stwnewspress.com/news/lo...e9cd40ead.html

[Jersey Boss]

Speaking of ev tax credit... More Tesla issues. Edmond woman screwed out of 7500.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/kfor.co...thousands/amp/

[Jersey Boss]

New tax credits for 2023 but lots of restrictions. Not sure I understand the income/price restriction if the goal is to encourage people to drive EVs. I would consider getting an EV next year but won't qualify for the credit. I also don't see where a business would qualify. Glad to see it includes used vehicles though

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/2023-el...dit-questions/

The income restriction was put in to mollify Manchin who would not support the bill otherwise.

[chssooner]

The income restriction was put in to mollify Manchin who would not support the bill otherwise.

More great PR for Tesla. Not like their stock and image have taken a hit this year, thanks to their owner, mainly.

[Just the facts]

It seems that one of the most difficult parts of participating in an on-line forum is in sticking to the topic of the individual threads.

With that in mind I thought it would be interesting to see how a conversation progressed without the topic being central to the discussion and just see where things go on the own momentum...like a normal conversation does.

So I'll get it started with this.

Every legacy automobile company has now tipped at least a toe into the EV market. Some dove in head first without even checking how deep the water is. Personally, I don't think the EV market is very deep and see it as nothing more than a nich market, that is rapidly becoming over crowded.

This leads me to ask 2 questions. 1) Which legacy manufacturer will abandon the EV market first. 2) Which EV manufacturer will be the first to build a car with an internal combustion engine?

Ford recently announced that they lost $2 billion last year on their EV operations and expect to lose $3 billion this year. They don't project a profit for several more years. Due to investor criticism Ford has changed their financial reporting model to single out profit/loss by business unit. This has made them the only legacy manufacturer that publicized the losses on EVs.

Since then Ford has come under pressure to spin off their EV production into its own company. I think Ford will do that and become the first legacy company to abandon EV.

Conversely, I think it will only be a matter of time before the first EV manufacturer introduces a gasoline engine into their offerings. I just don't know which one that might be.

[jn1780]

EV's are a long way away from being practical to the average consumer. Sorry, but a Ford 150 lighting and electric mustang SUV is not practical other than being a status symbol. If someone cares about the environment that much buy a smaller car. It will be interesting to see how well Tesla truck does.

I don't really see electric car companies getting into ICE's because they don't know anything about that market and would have a hard time competing with the traditional car companies.

Its sounds crazy, but the company most likely to build ICE vehicle would be Tesla in the form of a methane powered car. SpaceX is going to be switching to methane engines when Starship goes into service. To do this at the scale they want to accomplish, they need to scrub methane it out of the air to make liquid methane. That endeavor will be involve a lot of infrastructure and perhaps excess methane? So there is an argument that can be made that methane ICE's can be 'Eco-friendly'.

[Just the facts]

I don't know if the actual owners of EVs are all that interested in the actual environmental effects of EV, because they are no better for the environment than any other car - and in many cases they are worse. I think it is more of a status symbol for the actual owners because there are no other tangible benefits worth the cost.

EV manufacturers are going to have the same challenges every other manufacture has, and that is in generating growth. At some point the company is going to reach saturation, then where does growth come from? The first obvious place for EV manufacturers is gasoline engines.

Imagine the growth potential if Tesla came out with a hybrid

[Pete]

I don't know if the actual owners of EVs are all that interested in the actual environmental effects of EV, because they are no better for the environment than any other car - and in many cases they are worse.

This is demonstrably false.

You're Being Lied to About Electric Cars
Science has repeatedly shown EVs are better for humans, despite the meme you just retweeted.

[Pete]

Many are confusing the idea of new vehicle manufacturing vs. vehicle ownership. They are two completely different things.

ICE cars will be with us -- and probably even in the majority -- as long as any of us live. There are almost 300 MILLION vehicles in the U.S. right now and virtually all of them have internal combustion engines. And modern cars last a very long time, so those 300 million are not going anywhere anytime soon.

But absolutely every current auto manufacturer will be making and selling EV's in the majority by 2030 -- some exclusively.

EV cars are already very practical in a household that has more than one car. Even the most basic get close to 200 miles in range and you are completely ready to go if you just plug it in overnight. Some are already approaching 500 miles. It will be like computer innovation and will lead to rapid improvements. It's far easier to plug in a car in your garage than to drive to a gas station and deal with pumps and lines.

But in the meantime, if you have range anxiety just have one of your vehicles remain ICE and drive that on long trips. I personally don't drive more than 200 miles a day but maybe once or twice a year.


ICE cars will continue to be popular in the U.S. for a very long time but adoption will be faster in Europe and Asia -- it already is. Those continents weren't built on the oil and gas industry like we were/are and are far denser. And for long trips many take trains, an option we don't really have here.

Every big automaker sells its products globally, including those based here. So none of them are going to drop EV's ever, unless they cease to exist as a company.

[jerrywall]

I can't believe that any pure EV maker will move into the ICE area. The closest thing I could see would be some sort of hybrid ala the new Corvette E-Ray. I also don't see any legacy auto maker abandon EV's completely. There's too much PR and goodwill involved even if the money isn't immediately there. Also, most car makers would like to be able to do business in California past 2035.

[fortpatches]

I don't think they are that far from being practical to the average customer.

The average driver in the US drives around 420miles per month to and from work. That is roughly 100mi/wk which is comfortably within the range of every electric car on the market as far as I am aware. All it would take is getting people used to topping off their car when they get home, over night, or every few days - just like we plug in our phones/ear buds/watches to recharge we can pretty easily learn to do the same with our cars.

The only exception to whom electric cars wouldn't be practical are those that routinely travel long distances, exceeding the battery capacity, every day. That would require daily mid-commute recharge which could become an issue for some people. Also, they would not be practical for traditional models of road trips - but newer models for planning and recharge locations being more conveniently located near intermediate destinations could alleviate this concern.

I really don't think any EV will fully get into an ICE car. Maybe fuel cells as supplemental power / emergency power - but not as a primary source of locomotion.

I don't think any company will completely abandon the electric car market. Even if Ford spun off their electric business, they would likely still maintain ownership and/or control. And probably wouldn't want to rename / remarket the Electric F150 since the F150 has such high name recognition.