Classen Circle

[onthestrip]

Do you think there's a chance this public attention could lead to finding an alternative buyer with an interest in saving the building?

How about crowd sourcing it. Maybe use a real estate specific product that was developed here in OKC, www.crowdseekr.com

Of course there is history that should be preserved here but losing a neighborhood gathering place and strong urban block for a Braums of all things would be quite disappointing. We lose charm, place making and urbanism for something that is opposite of those things and will only cause more traffic and congestion issues.

[stile99]

My best guess over the difference in response over Classen Circle and Charcoal Oven is that there is a much larger cultural divide in play with regard to the former, which is evidenced mostly on the comment section of news websites. The fire is fueled by Braum's recent changes that have mostly been derided, which occur in the wake of their already mildly controversial perception.

I could easily be wrong, wouldn't be the first time, but I would imagine a large part of the difference was in the timing. As noted, Charcoal Oven didn't say a word to anyone until the ink was dry. The Braum's thing has advance notice, whereas the announcement regarding Charcoal Oven was more like "This is something happening in 10." "10 what?" "9...8...7...". There's a huge gap between "we're thinking about doing this in the future" and "we did this last week".

Were I just a bit more cynical, I might throw out the idea that this is a calculated move. They'll "magnanimously" back down from this, and reap the resulting goodwill, the burger and shake fiasco all but forgotten.

Oh wait, I AM that cynical, I just don't think Braum's is that smart.

[Joe Kimball]

I agree with the timing, as well. But they were trying to hide this too, right?

[Pete]

I could only confirm the Charcoal Oven thing when I say a building permit had been filed and did an open records request. I had heard rumblings and was following closely but of course no owner is going to give me information. They usually even lie when I'm holding a public document in my hand.

The sale of the property had not closed at that time.

Not sure the timing is any different here, it's just the rezoning gave perhaps a bit more opportunity to confirm exactly what was going on here.

[Urbanized]

A couple of things regarding differences between this and Charcoal Oven (I was super-bummed over that one too):

• The aforementioned timing
• The fact that Charcoal Oven, while charming and reasonably historic, was not especially good or efficient land use. The Classen Circle properties are actually pretty decent land use that maximizes the sqare footage of the land
• Charcoal oven, as owner of the property, required a certain level of viability in the core product. I don't doubt for a second that one of the great developers we have seen of late in and around downtown and midtown could renovate/redevelop the charming Classen Circle buildings into something just as cool as it has ever been (get whoever just re-did The Flamingo on the phone!)
• HiLo (and Charlie's, now that I think about it) offer strong culturally significant components
• Charcoal Oven was apparently failing to thrive, and another operator would not easily emerge to take it over
• Nobody is suggesting the Classen Circle businesses are failing. I think HiLo specifically is doing about as well as ever, but others seem to be fine. The property owner apparently just wants to cash out on properties they have failed to maintain, despite the fact that it will displace well-regarded and culturally significant businesses with good followings, some or all of which are unlikely to survive displacement
• Charcoal Oven was at the end of the day on a suburban business-only strip of a highway. They are missed by patrons and fans of the look and feel of the place, but it's hard to argue that removal has negatively impacted the surrounding neighborhood. Removing these buildings, and ESPECIALLY replacing them with an architecturally unremarkable, car-heavy burger drive-thru will without question harm the neighborhood.
• Charcoal oven had a great sign, and a neat-as-a-pin grounds. Other than that, not so cool architecturally. Classen Circle is a great example of some cool mid-century/googie architecture. Right now that type of architecture is gaining more and more interest. This building still has lots of future potential. A Braum's? Well, it is what it is.

[Pete]

^

Fair points but remember that there is a lot of empty space in the Donnay Building, even with the HiLo and Drunken Fry.

And it's also likely that for that building to be properly maintained, the necessary rent might have spelled doom for the existing businesses.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^
Empty living/office space mostly, which is actually what we now call mixed use and which is much coveted in urban development. You think someone like the Pivot guys couldn't make this work (hate to even bring them up because I know their plate is really full)?

[stile99]

I didn't mean to cast shade on your reporting Pete, as we've seen it's often the only method to get the real story. I actually meant it as an example of what you've said...in many areas across the city, you can go in this afternoon, sign the paperwork and sign the check, and have bulldozers out the next morning. In this scenario, having the protest at noon would be pointless. But in the Braum's scenario, it wasn't quite that simple, and zoning changes need to be made. While this may be rubberstamped as well, it takes slightly longer, giving people time to react (the opportunity that you mentioned). So it may not be so much a matter of 'timing' as 'time available'.

[UnFrSaKn]

https://www.thelostogle.com/2017/07/...ition-debacle/

[shawnw]

https://www.thelostogle.com/2017/07/...ition-debacle/

Best part:

"OKC Talk, which is supplanting The Oklahoman and Journal Record as a go-to source for local real estate development news"

[Urbanized]

By the way, the preferred replacement term for historic preservation is becoming "adaptive re-use." Historic preservation is a pretty misunderstood concept, and polarizing for some. I think adaptive re-use of the non-revenue generating parts of this complex would be way easier than some here are giving it credit for being, and the parts that ARE generating revenue could certainly use some sprucing up, restoration and repair, but not so much that it would take away charm, which is what this whole thing has in spades.

[Pete]

I've received so many nice compliments about our reporting on the Classen Circle issue, so I will now choose to focus on that rather than the various slights.

[Urbanized]

Well-deserved.

[Uptowner]

^^^^^^
Empty living/office space mostly, which is actually what we now call mixed use and which is much coveted in urban development. You think someone like the Pivot guys couldn't make this work (hate to even bring them up because I know their plate is really full)?

I was a regular at the HiLo from the late 90' to the 2000's before Chris Simon bought controlling interest from the other owners. Not that that was a bad thing, I just turned too square to drink 5 nights a week. I still go often but not nearly so since I quit smoking. But I've been around since the 90's and know the building well. The residences are nightmarish to put lightly. It's mostly 20x20 motel room style efficiencies and bizarre conversions of what was once the upstairs of the club and patio space. Stoney moved his jewelry shop out and Kelli, who did hair was by appointment only, I think she packed up too. Charley was ailing for a long time and the record store was hardly open. He died several months ago. Charley and Stoney were also tenants as they kept apartments in the building as crash/party pads, now empty. 2 units were held by the deep fork (in addition to what is now the grease trap gallery) as cheap rent/perks for their employees at the restaurant on western. Those again, were hotel room style efficiencies. The Deep Fork has been involved since it bought Chicas in the patio grill spaces, then moved that concept to Nichols hills plaza (where it died) and opening the defunct sidecar before Ian & Hailey of pump bar fame opened the drunken fry. The only two business doing business in that building are the drunken fry and the hilo. The apartments are scary and I don't think the owners even bothered to rent them in a long time. They just sub-let them to the commercial tenants for cheap. Most have been converted into studios and random use. The HiLo even uses one as a green room for bands.

The duplex to the east has pretty much been a flop house for 20 years. I knew several people who leased there. I remember the rent being something like $350 in 2005. The house on the corner lot was even worse. Also owned by red oak. At some point before it was condemned and demolished it actually had a hole in the door for selling dope. When I lived on 48th & military I had to make several calls to the city to have that house condemned. It was unfit for human occupancy but the owners kept leasing for cash anyway. There were holes rotted in the floors and ceiling, broken windows. But much like the Donnay building they were content to lease an ailing building for next to nothing and do zero maintenance.

I'm not saying that place is a blight and needs to go away, or saying braum's is a good thing. PLEASE! Don't get that impression. But I can say. With complete confidence. That there's absolutely no bank on earth that would give you the millions you would need to remodel that property. Keep in mind that a major remodel must adhere to 2017 code, that means fire suppression sprinklers, that means elevators, Just to make it handicap accessible would make an architects head explode. Christ...who can raise their hand and say "I know how to make the HiLo ADA compliant!"

Again. I'm just playing Devils advocate here. I will shed a tear the day the HiLo goes. But with the way that building has been going I couldn't see any other outcome. It's not a rise or a tower theatre, a Jones assembly or a sunshine cleaners. It's like Tetris in there. Scary neglected Tetris.

[Urbanized]

^^^^^^^
I respect that, but humbly submit the houses next to Iguana on 9th Street that were done by Steve Mason a few years ago. If you ever went into THOSE places you'd never say never. They hit most of notes you mention above, and then some. Including trees growing out of them and near-complete structural failure.

[rezman]

It's interesting to note the similarities and differences in this case and the one in Edmond betwen the residents of the Ashford Oaks neighborhood and Walmart involving the construction of a Walmart neighborhood market at Covell & Coltrane.

On one hand you have a group of people wanting to preserve a group of structures and businesses that have been there for decades, while on the other hand you have a group of people who want to preserve a parcel of land that has never been developed and wish to keep it that way.

Both cases are centered around the public's wishes and the rights of the land owners and developers. In Edmond's case, the city council rejected the proposal 3 times and is now on it's way to the supreme court, whereas at Classen Circle, it's all in the hands of the land owners.

[Pete]

^

It's all a product of growth and companies wanting to invest in the area, and those are generally good things but also leads to inevitable conflicts.

Regarding Classen Circle, if the City Council denies the rezoning there is a chance that matter could end up in court as well.

[rezman]

^^ And like you said upthread. Would the city council really be willing to take that fight on?. I'm betting not.

[SoonerDave]

I'm going to make a guess that Braum's is going to let this initial furor pass, which it will, then go right back at it unabated. May be delayed a bit, but that's what I'm betting.

[Pete]

I'm going to make a guess that Braum's is going to let this initial furor pass, which it will, then go right back at it unabated. May be delayed a bit, but that's what I'm betting.

There is no way that this wasn't going to happen eventually, so I'm sure that was part of their consideration when they went under contract.

Unfortunately that would mean very little chance of them changing their minds.

[soonerguru]

If Braum's had opted to work in a strategy that incorporated the existing building into a new store concept unique to the area, they could have turned this into a huge PR win and probably entirely avoided this ongoing publicity nightmare.

They could also fix their burgers and shakes, turn this into a PR win with a "Mea culpa! We hear you! We're fixing the burgers and shakes!
But I don't think they care about that, either. Not sure Drew Braum is getting the best advice these days; or if he is, he's just ignoring it.

SoonerDave, maybe it's time to replace your Braum's cheeseburger avatar with something else!

[soonerguru]

Not my intent to be condescending or a moral authority. I am looking at reality. The owners want to sell and Braums is willing to buy. The anger should be placed with the owners who are selling not Braums. It is in Braums best interest to expand their business and this is a good opportunity for them. It is a good opportunity for the sellers to make money off of selling because they don't want to own anymore. If they wanted to keep the building with the tenants, then they would not be selling.

The point I am making is stuff costs money and it is easy to say keep the building there, but the reality is to keep the building there costs money. Even with tenants, the owners have a better deal than keeping the building and the tenants. Is there someone willing to provide a better offer than Braums? I don't know, but if there was Braums, would not be buying it. The point is that who signed the petition is willing to provide a better deal to the owner other than Braums? Would you sell your house or car for less to other the highest and best offeror?

Along the lines of moral authority and condescending, it is a little bit condescending to say that Braums is not good enough to be there. It is a quality local Oklahoma company that employs many. Think of all of the people you are insulting that like to go to Bruams and like the company. It is a two way street.

Had a Braum's burger lately? Have you visited a location that wasn't trashy? Have you noticed how dated the architecture is and unappealing overall? Unless you demand them to make it fresh, their burgers are literally stored in a cabinet and tossed on the buns. Their ice cream is pretty good but as a company they are declining in quality noticeably.

[soonerguru]

I was a regular at the HiLo from the late 90' to the 2000's before Chris Simon bought controlling interest from the other owners. Not that that was a bad thing, I just turned too square to drink 5 nights a week. I still go often but not nearly so since I quit smoking. But I've been around since the 90's and know the building well. The residences are nightmarish to put lightly. It's mostly 20x20 motel room style efficiencies and bizarre conversions of what was once the upstairs of the club and patio space. Stoney moved his jewelry shop out and Kelli, who did hair was by appointment only, I think she packed up too. Charley was ailing for a long time and the record store was hardly open. He died several months ago. Charley and Stoney were also tenants as they kept apartments in the building as crash/party pads, now empty. 2 units were held by the deep fork (in addition to what is now the grease trap gallery) as cheap rent/perks for their employees at the restaurant on western. Those again, were hotel room style efficiencies. The Deep Fork has been involved since it bought Chicas in the patio grill spaces, then moved that concept to Nichols hills plaza (where it died) and opening the defunct sidecar before Ian & Hailey of pump bar fame opened the drunken fry. The only two business doing business in that building are the drunken fry and the hilo. The apartments are scary and I don't think the owners even bothered to rent them in a long time. They just sub-let them to the commercial tenants for cheap. Most have been converted into studios and random use. The HiLo even uses one as a green room for bands.

The duplex to the east has pretty much been a flop house for 20 years. I knew several people who leased there. I remember the rent being something like $350 in 2005. The house on the corner lot was even worse. Also owned by red oak. At some point before it was condemned and demolished it actually had a hole in the door for selling dope. When I lived on 48th & military I had to make several calls to the city to have that house condemned. It was unfit for human occupancy but the owners kept leasing for cash anyway. There were holes rotted in the floors and ceiling, broken windows. But much like the Donnay building they were content to lease an ailing building for next to nothing and do zero maintenance.

I'm not saying that place is a blight and needs to go away, or saying braum's is a good thing. PLEASE! Don't get that impression. But I can say. With complete confidence. That there's absolutely no bank on earth that would give you the millions you would need to remodel that property. Keep in mind that a major remodel must adhere to 2017 code, that means fire suppression sprinklers, that means elevators, Just to make it handicap accessible would make an architects head explode. Christ...who can raise their hand and say "I know how to make the HiLo ADA compliant!"

Again. I'm just playing Devils advocate here. I will shed a tear the day the HiLo goes. But with the way that building has been going I couldn't see any other outcome. It's not a rise or a tower theatre, a Jones assembly or a sunshine cleaners. It's like Tetris in there. Scary neglected Tetris.

Disagree.

[Martin]

SoonerDave, maybe it's time to replace your Braum's cheeseburger avatar with something else!

or at least make it 25% smaller...

[Joe Kimball]

Had a Braum's burger lately? Have you visited a location that wasn't trashy? Have you noticed how dated the architecture is and unappealing overall? Unless you demand them to make it fresh, their burgers are literally stored in a cabinet and tossed on the buns. Their ice cream is pretty good but as a company they are declining in quality noticeably.

Yes, emphasis on the "pretty good". And "demand" is right, down to even putting a lid on a to-go cup. I'm convinced that they would serve ice cream into your hand to save packaging, if they were permitted!

But to stay on topic—I hate to hear of Charlie. Out of the goodness of his heart, he came to my place about twelve years ago to assess my late stepdad's record collection, even though it was a long shot of any valuables. He even sold me a player for cheap, with a new needle, to play them. I need to go back to the store and see what's up.