OKC Regional Transit System

[SoonerDave]

I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I'll believe it when I see it. The amount of money required to get this thing going would require a bone in each city even if everyone did agree. Right now, Norman would have to pay for all the work done to get a line put through Moore. I think the city of Moore might have something to say about that. Depending on where the Edmond line goes, you may have some of the smaller burbs up there to worry about.

And them still talking about it still needing to convert to bus to go to Tinker. Come on, i mean that kills it too. Why bother with the train if they are going to have an express bus option to Tinker?
Keep in mind that people that can afford a car, aren't going to be the ones making use of this. So those downtown workers aren't really the ones you're marketing to. Which is the biggest reason these cities are dropping out. They don't see ridership coming to fruition. I've said all along that i wish we could do this and that it only works if everyone does it at the same time. But that we just dont have the density to make it work.

THANK YOU for bringing some practical reality to this broader discussion. I appreciate the value of something like DART in Dallas, or even the rail service in the LA area, and *conceptually* the idea sounds great anywhere, but the reality is that the greater OKC area doesn't have the population density to make this work. I don't blame Moore at all for pulling out if they were being constrained to finance it only through sales taxes.

[David]

The Norman CC kicked in another 31k to cover the drop outs.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nor...c56d2.amp.html

Midwest City Mayor Matt Dukes told the newspaper in April that his city did not want to raise taxes or contribute more money to the annual cost.

“The RTA hasn’t pursued any funding other than a sales tax hike to fund this monster … Midwest City’s is 9.1%. If they went for a 4% increase, that would put us at 13.1 percent. That would be unacceptable,” Dukes said.

Now that just feel blatantly dishonest. Pretty sure there's a 0% chance the RTA sales tax would be a whopping 4 cents on the dollar, right?

I'd have more respect for Midwest City dropping out if their Mayor wasn't outright lying about their rationale for it. That 'Monster' comment of his also rubs me a bit wrong, it demonstrates a bias that causes me to be unwilling to take the rest of his commentary at face value.

[Teo9969]

Now that just feel blatantly dishonest. Pretty sure there's a 0% chance the RTA sales tax would be a whopping 4 cents on the dollar, right?

I'd have more respect for Midwest City dropping out if their Mayor wasn't outright lying about their rationale for it. That 'Monster' comment of his also rubs me a bit wrong, it demonstrates a bias that causes me to be unwilling to take the rest of his commentary at face value.

Lol 4 cents. Looks like the RTA is going to be developing entire cities.

[Mott]

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

[bombermwc]

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

Exactlly. Everyone that thought this was just going to hop on existing (in use) rails was delusional. Anyone ever been in Norman during the day when one of the lines is dedicated to a train just hanging out waiting for its turn somewhere? That's every other day. Yeah, they could take over lines like the one in MWC/DC since it's been abandoned for as long as i've been alive (at least as long as i can remember).

Commuter rail is gonna have to build their own thing. And THAT, my friends, is extremely expensive. You're more likely to see some elevated monstrosity and i do not want to look at that (chicago).

[Plutonic Panda]

Commuter rail is not going to “build their own thing.” You have absolutely no clue what the f@ck you’re talking about and clearly have never seen how these things work in real cities. No one is responding to you because it’s not worth it. There is no need to turn an immediate profit and you honestly believe that the people planning this aren’t aware of operating costs? Sit and bitch about it all you want but if you live in Midwest City it isn’t your problem. Public transit is comical in OKC and is something that is extremely embarrassing when people that come visit from actual cosmopolitan cities. It’s mentality like yours that has led OKC to be an absolute joke of a city.

Thankfully the tide is starting to change and OKC is moving up. These lines will be built and more than likely will use BNSF tracks just like Amtrak does. Railways need to be nationalized anyways. Mass transit is built for the purpose of the greater good. If you think numbers need to be shown to turn a profit than let’s talk about tolling every freeway in the metro that’s subsidized by the federal government.

[HOT ROD]

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

Actually, OKC does have the history. Too bad most of this age fail to realize OKC was a city back in 1889, before the vehicle age.

[catch22]

This is BNSF's property after all and even if they are supposedly going to operate the commuter trains and fit the schedules into their network, they may not desire any additional stops in the future. They are in the freight business after all and are quite reluctant to anything that stands in their way. Catch22

It is indeed BNSF’s freight business. Having worked as a trainman, here in OKC, for 38 years, the current railroad infrastructure is not conducive to running multiple scheduled commuter trains Norman to Edmond. Single track bridges S 59th, Broadway Extension, I 44, and Western. It just isn’t going to happen. Only if the area wants to build a dedicated right of way. And that would be very expensive. Wonder what a DART double track separated right of way would cost these days. OKC just doesn’t have the history, or the density to make this work.

Last I heard the RTA is or will be in negotiation with them to operate the service (as a paid contractor). If that is the case, BNSF will make it work. As you are aware, the only language the railroads speak is Dollars and Cents. If they are making a buck running a commuter service a few times a day, they will find space in their schedule.

[EnragedOUfan]

THANK YOU for bringing some practical reality to this broader discussion. I appreciate the value of something like DART in Dallas, or even the rail service in the LA area, and *conceptually* the idea sounds great anywhere, but the reality is that the greater OKC area doesn't have the population density to make this work. I don't blame Moore at all for pulling out if they were being constrained to finance it only through sales taxes.

As a Midwest City native who moved to the Denton/Corinth (DFW) area and even further south to the Temple/Belton area south of Waco recently, I'm a huge fan of DFWs rail networks and they're extremely efficient.

I've taken the A-train from Denton to Trinity Millis (Carrollton), transferred over to the DART Green Line and went further into downtown and even across the metroplex. Several times in downtown, I've transferred over to Trinity Railway Express that runs between downtown Dallas to downtown Fort Worth.

I've taken the Amtrak from Temple, TX to Dallas where I then transferred back to the DART, and I've taken the Heartland Flyer from Bricktown to Fort Worth that stops in Gainesville, Ardmore, Pauls Valley, Purcell, and Norman. OKC would absolutely benefit from having DART like system across the city. Being able to take a train from Yukon to Bricktown and then either to Edmond, Norman, or Midwest City would be nice, and the train is a good backup contingency option for those that encounter sudden car issues or just prefer an alternate method for commuting across the city. After living in Europe, the east coast, and now Texas where I've ridden many trains, I'm a huge fan.

If Midwest City passes on this, they're missing out.

[Laramie]

A commuter rail link between Edmond, Oklahoma City and Norman is in the running for a $100 million federal grants funding as plans proceed for creation of a RTA (Regional Transit System).

"Consultant Kathryn Holmes told the Regional Transportation Authority of Central Oklahoma the proposed operation is eligible for the Federal Transportation Administration’s New Start Project grants that provide a minimum of $100 million toward systems totaling more than $300 million."--Oklahoman, Lackmeyer 06/21/2022

So the Feds will cover 1/3 of the cost of construction on a $300 million infrastructure rail investment.


Source: Oklahoman https://oklahoman-ok.newsmemory.com/...3gzyI4znObypj3

.

[EnragedOUfan]

I like this map, and hopefully they'll incorporate more stops as time progresses. Maybe stops at Rockwell/Reno, Meridian/Reno, Rose State College, 15th/Sooner, and 19th street in Moore for starters.

If its a hit, extend a rail out towards Piedmont in vicinity of Northwest Expressway and hopefully a rail towards the Zoo/Women's College World Series.

[bombermwc]

Commuter rail is not going to “build their own thing.” You have absolutely no clue what the f@ck you’re talking about and clearly have never seen how these things work in real cities. No one is responding to you because it’s not worth it. There is no need to turn an immediate profit and you honestly believe that the people planning this aren’t aware of operating costs? Sit and bitch about it all you want but if you live in Midwest City it isn’t your problem. Public transit is comical in OKC and is something that is extremely embarrassing when people that come visit from actual cosmopolitan cities. It’s mentality like yours that has led OKC to be an absolute joke of a city.

Thankfully the tide is starting to change and OKC is moving up. These lines will be built and more than likely will use BNSF tracks just like Amtrak does. Railways need to be nationalized anyways. Mass transit is built for the purpose of the greater good. If you think numbers need to be shown to turn a profit than let’s talk about tolling every freeway in the metro that’s subsidized by the federal government.

Ok bud....sure thing. Come back in 5 years and prove me wrong. It's been almost 15 so far.

[shartel_ave]

OKC should have another round of MAPS and put in for a light rail I don't believe a commuter rail would be very efficient in OKC, expanding bus routes with more frequent stops would be better in my opinion. Seattle has a commuter rail and it's ridership for the N line was only 3.400 a week last year which is just over 3/4's of million for the year and the light rail had over 25 million in 2019.

I'm sure 2021 was higher it has gone up every year except 2020 obviously.

OKC could utilize all the medians for light rail like it did back in the day for streetcars, just a thought.

Or just expand the streetcar system in place.

OKC doesn't even have a carpool lane and doesn't need one...yet

Seattle's link light rail has almost as many riders as all of Dallas's DART system

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_by_ridership


Portland's MAX is what every city should follow, it is insanely efficient.

[Plutonic Panda]

Ok bud....sure thing. Come back in 5 years and prove me wrong. It's been almost 15 so far.

I never once said they have their sh!t together but I’ll come back to you in 2030 and revisit this. We’ll see.

[Mott]

Actually, OKC does have the history. Too bad most of this age fail to realize OKC was a city back in 1889, before the vehicle age.

We have a history that began in 1889, as an instant tent city, on the prairie. The day before there was nothing, but the Railroad. The city ripped out the trolleys, and interurban routes around 1950. So we have had rubber wheel transport for over half of our ‘history’. There never was any sort of commuter rail other than the interurban, the steam rails weren’t t interested. And the downtown became an empty place due to suburbia, white flight, and shopping centers until MAPS. All developed on wide open spaces, and personal transportation in one’s automobile. Those are the facts, I wish we could have trains, trolleys or commuter rails. If the RTA negotiates some trains on the BNSF, they will be run by Herzog, or some other contractors, not BNSF crews, but no matter. Look at Rail Runner between Belen and Santa Fe. Mainly to ferry workers to the Capitol, from Albuquerque, plus anyone who wants to use it. No freight traffic at all north of Albuquerque, just one Amtrak each way daily, that’s it. Maybe two trains each way Belen to Albuquerque. OKC is on a relatively busy class I railroad, with zero history of commuter trains. Zero. If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. And there’s nothing bad about talking or trying to get OKC to a better place, I’m fine with that, Lord knows it could be a heck of a lot better.

[Plutonic Panda]

Ok bud....sure thing. Come back in 5 years and prove me wrong. It's been almost 15 so far.

btw, sorry if I was harsh in my response. I should have been a little kinder. I’m just saying I think they will get this thing going and it will be on BNSF tracks but I agree with you they’ve been dragging their feet.

[HOT ROD]

OKC had an interurban network that we'd likely classify as commuter rail in today's terms, since it brought in people from the suburbs into downtown.

[bombermwc]

The streetcars were awesome. It's such an incredible loss that we dont have them anymore. I wish we would have been able to hold out against that decision. Can you imagine how different the city would be today if the street cars had never left?

I say this as a 40 something that never saw them. But heard stories from grandparents. But think NOLA and what an awesome thing that is and could have stayed being here.

[Plutonic Panda]

The streetcars were and are horrible. I’m sure at one time they served their purpose but that’s over and done. There’s this thing called a bus that can achieve the exact same thing and get this, they don’t have to stop and wait if someone is blocking the tracks because guess what, there’s incredible thing called a rubber wheel that isn’t limited to a track.

Subways, elevated trains, HSR, and commuter rail are awesome. It’s a very good thing the streetcars were ripped and the myth that it is simply due to automobile companies buying them out conveniently leaves out they were going into bankruptcy and/or bleeding money.

[bombermwc]

I've heard a lot of people make that argument. The developers like the static rail so the route doesn't move and then they suddenly aren't on the "line" anymore. When it's static line, residential and commercial properties know that the line isn't going anywhere and can use that as a selling point. And the buyers/customers know it too. So they may be more likely to lease an apartment on the line and go to the stores on the line as well. If it's a bus, yes the route has flexibility, but that means it's flexible and can move, uprooting that whole thing. Imagine being the resident without a car that suddenly finds the route gone from near their home and no car.

This whole thread is talking about putting a streetcar back. Call it commuter rail, but it's not much different. No, it doesn't go on the streets and won't have to wait on the cars, but any modern use of the street car has controls in place to work around that very issue. NOLA is a good example of that...it mixes dedicate line spaces with curbside street stops. Dedicate middle of the road segregated space and traffic lighting on Canal St (which is an insane street if you've never been there, so props to whomever planned that thing out and how to make it all work), and then crossing over to the curb in other areas. Just saying, it can be done, and done well. Cars or no cars.

[Teo9969]

Anyone else feel like the (probable) new arena is going to drive a stake through the heart of this whole endeavor? This PLUS a near billion dollar bond issue seems wildly out of reach for Oklahoma City.

[shartel_ave]

I've heard a lot of people make that argument. The developers like the static rail so the route doesn't move and then they suddenly aren't on the "line" anymore. When it's static line, residential and commercial properties know that the line isn't going anywhere and can use that as a selling point. And the buyers/customers know it too. So they may be more likely to lease an apartment on the line and go to the stores on the line as well. If it's a bus, yes the route has flexibility, but that means it's flexible and can move, uprooting that whole thing. Imagine being the resident without a car that suddenly finds the route gone from near their home and no car.

This whole thread is talking about putting a streetcar back. Call it commuter rail, but it's not much different. No, it doesn't go on the streets and won't have to wait on the cars, but any modern use of the street car has controls in place to work around that very issue. NOLA is a good example of that...it mixes dedicate line spaces with curbside street stops. Dedicate middle of the road segregated space and traffic lighting on Canal St (which is an insane street if you've never been there, so props to whomever planned that thing out and how to make it all work), and then crossing over to the curb in other areas. Just saying, it can be done, and done well. Cars or no cars.

What are you going on about? Do you mean a light rail? WTF is a static rail?

[LocoAko]

What are you going on about? Do you mean a light rail? WTF is a static rail?

Maybe relax a bit? Bomber wasn't referring to a type of rail called a static rail, they weren't making the point that rail tracks are static (fixed) which helps developers and investors feel confident it won't be moving elsewhere in the longer term. Compare that to a bus, as bomber did, which can theoretically change it's route with little to no warning.

[David]

Anyone else feel like the (probable) new arena is going to drive a stake through the heart of this whole endeavor? This PLUS a near billion dollar bond issue seems wildly out of reach for Oklahoma City.

Yep.

[Hutch]

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