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  1. #226

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I understand fine. Federal is a representative (of the states). Local/states are often direct democracies just because the alternative isn't really practical. However, what you are suggesting (popular vote) is a federal direct democracy, well, at least for the executive branch.
    You are confusing Direct Elections with Direct Democracy, they aren't the same thing.

    Yes, I am for directly electing the president. Why are you against that?

  2. #227

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    You are confusing Direct Elections with Direct Democracy, they aren't the same thing.

    Yes, I am for directly electing the president. Why are you against that?
    Because it has never worked throughout history. Not to mention the prospect of a recount with direct elections. Holy crap.

    The biggest reason is that we are organized as a republic of states. Those states are hold to account by the people. The federal government is held to account by the states. That's the way it works. It wasn't an accident either. It's what every former dictatorship runs to immediately after seeing the error of their ways.

    It would disenfranchise voters on a scale we haven't seen. Imagine certifying your state's vote for a person they didn't vote for by and large, just because some other states did? If this does come to pass, it may be one of the quickest reversals of a policy in history.

    It would pretty much put an end to any third party competition. Recent years have seen more and more momentum (which I thought people actually wanted). IF NPV comes along, kiss that goodbye.

    Besides, the current system has worked without fail for well over 200 years, and because your guy (gal in this case) didn't win, everybody is just looking for a system that in this very case (assuming nothing else changed, which is ludicrous) would have resulted in her victory. I'm not even opposed to it because I think it would result in Democratic rule. In the short term maybe, but in the long term I could pretty much guarantee that it would ebb and flow just like it has for a few centuries so far. That being said, it is just a poor vehicle to get to the same result.

    Hell even HuffPo used to post articles against it. Times are a changing. Seems the left will through caution to the wind to get their person elected.

    Why National Popular Vote Is a Bad Idea

    Better question, why should we do it. Because there are dozens of reasons to NOT do it.

  3. #228

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Because it has never worked throughout history. Not to mention the prospect of a recount with direct elections. Holy crap.
    It has never worked through history? What are you talking about? Does Trump’s buddy Emmanuel Macron know this? What about Moon Jae-in of South Korea? It’s going to be hard to get a treaty done between North Korea and South Korea without the directly elected president of Korea. Who has Trump been calling about wall payments from Mexico with? If it’s not the directly elected Enrique Pena Nieto.

    This statement might even be more ridiculous than when you claimed there was no law or anything in the constitution that made a good economy a function of government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    The biggest reason is that we are organized as a republic of states. Those states are hold to account by the people. The federal government is held to account by the states. That's the way it works. It wasn't an accident either. It's what every former dictatorship runs to immediately after seeing the error of their ways.
    There aren’t that many Federal Republics, and even fewer Federal Republics with a president, but almost all of them, except us, directly elect their president, including Mexico, Austria, Brazil and even Russia.

    I have no idea what you mean by “It's what every former dictatorship runs to immediately after seeing the error of their ways.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    It would disenfranchise voters on a scale we haven't seen. Imagine certifying your state's vote for a person they didn't vote for by and large, just because some other states did? If this does come to pass, it may be one of the quickest reversals of a policy in history.
    Funny word that, “disenfranchise”, so voters within a state might be “disenfranchised”, but you don’t care at all about that happening nationally?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    It would pretty much put an end to any third party competition. Recent years have seen more and more momentum (which I thought people actually wanted). IF NPV comes along, kiss that goodbye.
    It would actually lower the bar for entry by a third party since a party wouldn’t necessarily need a full organization in every state.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Besides, the current system has worked without fail for well over 200 years, and because your guy (gal in this case) didn't win, everybody is just looking for a system that in this very case (assuming nothing else changed, which is ludicrous) would have resulted in her victory. I'm not even opposed to it because I think it would result in Democratic rule. In the short term maybe, but in the long term I could pretty much guarantee that it would ebb and flow just like it has for a few centuries so far. That being said, it is just a poor vehicle to get to the same result.
    Twice in the last five election, voters have been (your word) disenfranchised because the person they voted for, that actually got more votes, lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Hell even HuffPo used to post articles against it. Times are a changing. Seems the left will through caution to the wind to get their person elected.

    Why National Popular Vote Is a Bad Idea
    I’m not in love with NPV unless all states agree to do it. I’m for an amendment doing away with the electoral college.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Better question, why should we do it. Because there are dozens of reasons to NOT do it.
    The only reason you have given is that voters will be “disenfranchised”, but isn’t that what is happening today? Got another reason?

  4. #229

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Yes, I am for directly electing the president. Why are you against that?
    I am torn on the electoral college. Alexander Hamilton favored it because it placed the real responsibility for electing the president in the hands of the Electors, who were perceived as more "able" to responsibly handle this act. I do not support this and feel any validity it may have once held, is no longer a valid reason. On the other hand, I absolutely do support the Electoral College because it helps to take some of the power from the vast population concentrations of the northeast and west coasts and returns it to the vast majority of the rest of the country whose lifestyle, values, demographics and virtually all other life aspects can differ radically from the coasts.

    There are multiple examples of those on the coasts really not having a clue about the way the rest of the country thinks. Some of the most basic range from the arrogant pronouncements of entertainers, pseudo-intellectuals and wannabees of both groups talking about the coasts and "flyover states." While this terminology is laughed off or just skipped over by those who use the terms on TV, the reality is that most on the coasts have at minimum, a touch of this feeling just as we who live in the "flyover states" really could care less about how those on the coasts live - except when we visit or vacation in those locations. Other, more recent examples, would be those who wanted to impose driving 55 mph during the gas crunch of the 70s and 80s, those who felt the children of farmers should be prohibited, by law, from working on the farms because it was perceived as "child labor." The gun debates going on today are as much a coastal vs. heartland fight as anything else out there as well as the abortion issues. If I lived in New York City, Chicago, San Francisco or LA, I suppose I would not want the people of Mississippi imposing their will on how I lived in New York so I suppose it all works out the same way. However, in a country as huge as ours, I do not believe the will of people living in 10% of the country in the urban, high-rise environments of the east and the mass-megalopolises of Chicago, LA and SF Bay dictating to 90% of the rest of the country how to conduct all aspects of their lives.

    To me, this is a case for far more state control over how things are done. Let California open their borders to anyone - but be prepared bordering states may close their borders to California, give free housing to the homeless without resolving the causes of homelessness and restrict land growth until no one can afford to live there - while expecting the taxpayers to pay for all of this. But at the same time, let the rest of the states live their lives as they choose because the differences between the majorities in the two areas are becoming so vast, I don't know where compromises can be made.

  5. #230

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    I am torn on the electoral college. Alexander Hamilton favored it because it placed the real responsibility for electing the president in the hands of the Electors, who were perceived as more "able" to responsibly handle this act. I do not support this and feel any validity it may have once held, is no longer a valid reason. On the other hand, I absolutely do support the Electoral College because it helps to take some of the power from the vast population concentrations of the northeast and west coasts and returns it to the vast majority of the rest of the country whose lifestyle, values, demographics and virtually all other life aspects can differ radically from the coasts.

    There are multiple examples of those on the coasts really not having a clue about the way the rest of the country thinks. Some of the most basic range from the arrogant pronouncements of entertainers, pseudo-intellectuals and wannabees of both groups talking about the coasts and "flyover states." While this terminology is laughed off or just skipped over by those who use the terms on TV, the reality is that most on the coasts have at minimum, a touch of this feeling just as we who live in the "flyover states" really could care less about how those on the coasts live - except when we visit or vacation in those locations. Other, more recent examples, would be those who wanted to impose driving 55 mph during the gas crunch of the 70s and 80s, those who felt the children of farmers should be prohibited, by law, from working on the farms because it was perceived as "child labor." The gun debates going on today are as much a coastal vs. heartland fight as anything else out there as well as the abortion issues. If I lived in New York City, Chicago, San Francisco or LA, I suppose I would not want the people of Mississippi imposing their will on how I lived in New York so I suppose it all works out the same way. However, in a country as huge as ours, I do not believe the will of people living in 10% of the country in the urban, high-rise environments of the east and the mass-megalopolises of Chicago, LA and SF Bay dictating to 90% of the rest of the country how to conduct all aspects of their lives.

    To me, this is a case for far more state control over how things are done. Let California open their borders to anyone - but be prepared bordering states may close their borders to California, give free housing to the homeless without resolving the causes of homelessness and restrict land growth until no one can afford to live there - while expecting the taxpayers to pay for all of this. But at the same time, let the rest of the states live their lives as they choose because the differences between the majorities in the two areas are becoming so vast, I don't know where compromises can be made.
    So a single vote in Oklahoma should count more than a single vote in California? Why? No more "One Man, One Vote"? Are you better than someone in Florida or New York? That's not very "democratic", choosing certain voters to have more power than other voters. It almost sounds, what's the word, fascist?

    Metro New York and LA have more people than all of Oklahoma, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas and even Texas, combined. I know the Republican party likes to say all those people aren’t real Americans, but they are.

    This really isn’t about location anyway, it’s about urbanization.

    More than one third of Americans live in just the 15 largest metro areas. Almost 60% live in a metro the size of Tulsa or larger.

  6. Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    ... However, in a country as huge as ours, I do not believe the will of people living in 10% of the country in the urban, high-rise environments of the east and the mass-megalopolises of Chicago, LA and SF Bay dictating to 90% of the rest of the country how to conduct all aspects of their lives. ...
    Might want to read this, especially sections 9.4 and 9.5:

    https://www.nationalpopularvote.com/...-2013-2-21.pdf

  7. #232

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    So a single vote in Oklahoma should count more than a single vote in California? Why? No more "One Man, One Vote"? Are you better than someone in Florida or New York? That's not very "democratic", choosing certain voters to have more power than other voters. It almost sounds, what's the word, fascist?

    Metro New York and LA have more people than all of Oklahoma, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas and even Texas, combined. I know the Republican party likes to say all those people aren’t real Americans, but they are.

    This really isn’t about location anyway, it’s about urbanization.

    More than one third of Americans live in just the 15 largest metro areas. Almost 60% live in a metro the size of Tulsa or larger.
    Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The population is becoming so concentrated in basically New England, LA/SF and a few other metro areas that it endangers the rest of the country being rendered politically irrelevant. I thank TheTravellers for providing that very lengthy and thorough document - that tries to dispute my belief. I read the sections he pointed out thoroughly but don't believe the report supports the assertions. The evidence used was simply the # of political events held in states per electoral college vote in the lastpresidential election. Only a handful of these small electoral college states had a significant # of political events held in them. To me, what the author asserts as proof there is no large case bias, to me, only proves the assertion that so few events were held because 1) most of those states were already strongly decided one way or the other or 2) the states are irrelevant per their vote size. When there are politically huge states that can mathmatically swing one way or the other, you are simply going to concentrate efforts in those states. If the vote were simply popular, the small states may have gotten no attention at all. In fact, the cadidates would really have no reason to leave the coasts and Chicago at all.

    Yes, I agree its about urbanization but it is urbanization in basically 4 - 6 megalopolises vs most all the rest of the country. Combine this with simple anecdotal evidence of what happened or was proposed in the last administration, observations of actions out of DC vs the rest of the country, what the left continues to push and the general disregard of the right by the generally leftist entertainer/media/ politician oligarchy that has developed in this country, the vast majority of the mass of this country needs to be protected. Hell, even in California the LA/SF megalopolises have so disenfranchised the rest of the state of California there is real talk and action on secession.

    Its amazing how fast people like you fail to discuss things and go right to name-calling. I'm not the one who came up with the system and the fact you go right to calling people who disagree with your points as fascists only makes you an even smaller person. Our founding fathers created the system and did so for many reasons - none of which were facism. I guess that makes them the fascists?

    Oh, and remember, The United States is not a Democracy but a unique Constitutional Republic. Thats why we elect people to represent us and why, occasionally, there are people's within our country who need protection.

    Sorry, I'm not convinced there is any need to change the system. If you want to just turn over your lifestyle to those in DC, NYC, Philly, Chicago, LA or The Bay area, go ahead. Most of the rest of us don't care to be controlled by them.

  8. #233
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    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    I just need one reason why I support abolishing the electoral college: Bush. Trump may be next reason, but giving him more time to work out. However, if the future candidates for president remain bad selections, it may not make much difference to the country.

  9. #234
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    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    Sorry, I'm not convinced there is any need to change the system. If you want to just turn over your lifestyle to those in DC, NYC, Philly, Chicago, LA or The Bay area, go ahead. Most of the rest of us don't care to be controlled by them.
    But blue states in the northeast thought safe for Hillary went for Trump. It's not that way now, so far, but if the country starts suffering terribly from Trump's decisions, more people will want the electoral system abolished.

  10. #235
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    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    The population is becoming so concentrated in basically New England, LA/SF and a few other metro areas that it endangers the rest of the country being rendered politically irrelevant.
    So if all those places you named are the majority, they are not going to appreciate being overruled at every presidential election from the result of the electoral college.

  11. #236

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    So a single vote in Oklahoma should count more than a single vote in California? Why? No more "One Man, One Vote"? Are you better than someone in Florida or New York? That's not very "democratic", choosing certain voters to have more power than other voters. It almost sounds, what's the word, fascist?

    Metro New York and LA have more people than all of Oklahoma, Missouri, Arkansas, Kansas and even Texas, combined. I know the Republican party likes to say all those people aren’t real Americans, but they are.

    This really isn’t about location anyway, it’s about urbanization.

    More than one third of Americans live in just the 15 largest metro areas. Almost 60% live in a metro the size of Tulsa or larger.
    It is not democratic. Because we don’t live in a democracy. The electoral college protects state rights. Giving small states a minimum say in the presidential election Period. And it should not go away.

  12. #237
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    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderSooner View Post
    It is not democratic. Because we don’t live in a democracy. The electoral college protects state rights. Giving small states a minimum say in the presidential election Period. And it should not go away.
    LOL, just how many more bad presidents does this country have to survive to admit going by the popular vote would have been the wiser decision? However, it remains to be fully seen if Hillary Clinton would have been a better president.

    My guess it will require Republicans losing at least a couple of close presidential elections, due to the Electoral College vote, not the popular, and the Democrat presidents turning out to be bad before more people will come around to seeing the Electoral College does not serve the best interests of the country in a modern world.

  13. #238

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Oh you know good and well had the tables been turned and Hilary won based on the electoral college while Trump won the popular vote, it would be the exact opposite. Democrats like you would be defending the electoral college while Republicans would be saying how outmoded and unwise it is. I would bet a nickel if Bush W and Trump had lost based on the EC vs. the popular vote, Democrats would be defending it as if it were gold.

  14. Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Don't know if everybody's aware of this, but the NPVIC started over a decade ago, so it's not really a reaction to Hillary/Trump.

  15. #240

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    LOL, just how many more bad presidents does this country have to survive to admit going by the popular vote would have been the wiser decision? However, it remains to be fully seen if Hillary Clinton would have been a better president.

    My guess it will require Republicans losing at least a couple of close presidential elections, due to the Electoral College vote, not the popular, and the Democrat presidents turning out to be bad before more people will come around to seeing the Electoral College does not serve the best interests of the country in a modern world.
    There has been plenty of bad leaders in world history to have been elected by popular vote. A 1 percent difference in vote isn't going to prevent bad leaders it just changes how they approach the election.

    Think about this: there will be more uneducated people at the polls if their votes all of the sudden matters. The populist candidate is going to get a boost from this.

  16. #241

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Bunty View Post
    My guess it will require Republicans losing at least a couple of close presidential elections, due to the Electoral College vote, not the popular, and the Democrat presidents turning out to be bad before more people will come around to seeing the Electoral College does not serve the best interests of the country in a modern world.
    Republicans will never admit they had a bad President. They will instead mythologize said bad President to turn him into some sort of geniushero who never raised taxes and never secretly sold weapons to enemy states.

  17. #242

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    There aren’t that many Federal Republics, and even fewer Federal Republics with a president, but almost all of them, except us, directly elect their president, including ... Russia.
    I don't know if you should be holding up Russia as a model of democratic integrity.

    http://www.theweek.co.uk/russian-ele...elections-fair

  18. #243

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by mugofbeer View Post
    Oh you know good and well had the tables been turned and Hilary won based on the electoral college while Trump won the popular vote, it would be the exact opposite. Democrats like you would be defending the electoral college while Republicans would be saying how outmoded and unwise it is. I would bet a nickel if Bush W and Trump had lost based on the EC vs. the popular vote, Democrats would be defending it as if it were gold.
    They probably would. Is that why you're doing it?

  19. #244

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by TheTravellers View Post
    Don't know if everybody's aware of this, but the NPVIC started over a decade ago, so it's not really a reaction to Hillary/Trump.
    I understand, but I would still dare say that Gore/Bush had a lot to do with this. Pretty much the same situation in another decade.

  20. #245

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I understand, but I would still dare say that Gore/Bush had a lot to do with this. Pretty much the same situation in another decade.
    Yeah, because that worked out really well for the old US of A.

    Bush becomes president after losing the popular vote and leads us into a pointless war in Iraq that cost us (and continues to cost us) trillions of dollars and thousands of lives, mucks up the war in Afghanistan by being distracted in Iraq and melts down the global economy with the worst recession in 100 years.

    And now we have Trump.

    We are NOT doing well with the presidents that lose the popular vote.

  21. #246

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Yeah, because that worked out really well for the old US of A.

    Bush becomes president after losing the popular vote and leads us into a pointless war in Iraq that cost us (and continues to cost us) trillions of dollars and thousands of lives, mucks up the war in Afghanistan by being distracted in Iraq and melts down the global economy with the worst recession in 100 years.

    And now we have Trump.

    We are NOT doing well with the presidents that lose the popular vote.
    Your feelings aside, he was re-elected. But I'm sure you will just tell me that he was just fantastic at duping all the rubes out their with his control of the news media and such.

    For real though, no system will protect this country from having sub-par Presidents. Get over yourself.

  22. #247

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    Your feelings aside, he was re-elected. But I'm sure you will just tell me that he was just fantastic at duping all the rubes out their with his control of the news media and such.

    For real though, no system will protect this country from having sub-par Presidents. Get over yourself.
    Find me an example of a president that lost reelection in wartime. A hint, it has never happened.
    That's why he was reelected.

    And he was reelected before things really started to south in Iraq and Afghanistan and that was before he destroyed the world Economy.

  23. #248

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Swake View Post
    Find me an example of a president that lost reelection in wartime. A hint, it has never happened.
    That's why he was reelected.

    And he was reelected before things really started to south in Iraq and Afghanistan and that was before he destroyed the world Economy.
    I think you give way too much credit to Bush...

    One man does not destroy a world economy. There are hundreds if not thousands of actors in this that make way too risky bets. Country after country was involved as well. But yeah, it was all Bush's fault. I know for a fact you are smarter than this.

  24. #249

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    I think you give way too much credit to Bush...

    One man does not destroy a world economy. There are hundreds if not thousands of actors in this that make way too risky bets. Country after country was involved as well. But yeah, it was all Bush's fault. I know for a fact you are smarter than this.
    No, his admin deserves a ton of blame. Not all, but a great deal of it. And a lot of those same policy and oversight ideas are back on steroids and a dash of trade wars with Trump.

  25. #250

    Default Re: Good things happening in the political world

    Quote Originally Posted by Midtowner View Post
    Republicans will never admit they had a bad President. They will instead mythologize said bad President to turn him into some sort of geniushero who never raised taxes and never secretly sold weapons to enemy states.
    Hey! I'm a Republican and I think Trump is an immoral lowlife. At the election, I thought the same but I also thought Hilary was an at-least equally immoral lowlife who had multiple examples of lying, ruining people's lives for no good reason, taking money for obviously immoral if not illegal reasons. It boiled down to judicial and SCOTUS appointments he would make vs. Hilary and how ye would handle the economy. He's the President, like it or not, at least for now so he does what he does. It would satisfy me if the legal system, courts, media etc. would investigate the Democratic side of the election with the same vigor they are goingvafter Trump, they would findvat least as much new dirt. I would like the Repubs to run someone else in the next election and not Trump. So, don't think those of us who question tactics of the left truly support Trump. I support the US but the left political machine is even worse.

    Most of my Repub friends feel the same way so, Mid, your generalization is just your off-base opinion. Does he have actal supporters, sure. For most of us, its trying to tolerate him.

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