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  1. #3326

    Default Re: The national political landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    I think for me it comes down to a matter of intent, and what you believe Trump believed at the time.

    If Trump believed the conspiracy theory stuff with Hunter Biden was legit (and had good faith reasons to believe it) when he asked about it, and if he honestly asked about it from a standpoint of cleaning up corruption, then I'm 100% OK with him making this request, and trying it to money. We tie strings to aid ALL THE TIME. It's reasonable to take steps to limit corruption when it happens.

    The other far side, is Trump absolutely knew there was nothing there, and all the Biden stuff had no real legs in term of corruption, and he was hoping just the appearance of an investigation would help in politically, and there was some hope that some damaging dirt might show up as well, or even be manufactured. This would be impeachable for sure, IMO, especially if it was tied to them receiving the funds (something I'm not convinced of yet, and that what we know so far tends to disprove).

    My guess is that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Trump seems to go all in for whatever crazy conspiracy stories are floating on the internet. I've suspected that the whole birther crap from him wasn't political, or even a product of racism, but that he just genuinely believed that Obama wasn't born in the US. I have a feeling he kept hearing about Hunter Biden and Ukraine (from various sources), so when the topic of Ukraine came up, he kept injecting Biden into the discussion. He surely had to know there would at the least be some incidental benefit to him politically though, so just from an appearance standpoint he should have known better (although experience would tell us he doesn't). This would all be a great reason not to vote for him, but I'm not sure I'm convinced if it would be enough to justify removing him from office.

    The trouble is, we're looking at a different of mind sets. It's all going to come down to intent, if this was done correctly. However, it's a political move, and the Democrats know they won't be able to get a conviction, so it's all pageantry anyways. No one, including the folks on here who seem to be asking "why don't folks support an investigation" actually want an honest and open investigation. It's all about points.
    No, this doesn't fly. Ukraine is a country with big corruption problems. There are people all around Trump with links to actual corruption in Ukraine including Trump's former Campaign Chairman, his former Assistant Campaign Chairman and his current personal lawyer.

    Yet the only investigations into possible corruption he's ever mentioned are ones that might be good for himself politically.

    Trump has no idea about right vs wrong, it's all about what he thinks is good for Trump vs what he thinks is bad for Trump. That's his entire corrupt moral code.

  2. #3327

    Default Re: The national political landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric View Post
    It's a bold argument to allow that Biden's pressure on the Ukrainians to compel them to take action is entirely acceptable as a matter of policy enforcement, as the benefit to his son's wallet was collateral and incidental, while at the same time rejecting the notion that Trump's pressure on the Ukrainians to follow through on justice reform and corruption investigations that collaterally involve Biden's son is equally acceptable as a matter of policy enforcement. Seems...counterintuitive.
    Uh oh. Careful, you almost stepped in it.

  3. #3328

    Default Re: The national political landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by jerrywall View Post
    We tie strings to aid ALL THE TIME.
    The aid was not tied to a corruption investigation in Ukraine. Congress and the Pentagon approved it without such condition.

    The question is whether Trump tied it to the announcement of a corruption investigation, and whether or not the Executive branch should unilaterally have the authority to do so.

    No one, including the folks on here who seem to be asking "why don't folks support an investigation" actually want an honest and open investigation.
    I'll say that I do. Obviously, you don't have to (and won't) believe that.

    And I'll also say that I also want (and will never get) an "honest and open investigation" into Hunter Biden's activities in Ukraine, or more specifically, his appointment to his post at Burisma Holdings Ltd. Not by Ukrainian investigators under the condition of getting Congressionally approved US aide meant to help Ukraine defend itself against threat of Russian military action, but by US investigators enforcing US anti-corruption laws that (I guess) don't, but should, exist.

    The reality is that what happened with Hunter Biden and a Ukrainian gas company is, as far as I can tell, totally legal. And, totally corrupt. Corrupt, but legal.

    And there is no one who understands "corrupt, but legal" better than Donald J. Trump. For those born yesterday, that's on what he's based his entire professional career.

    Would it be unfair if Trump gets impeached because of an abuse of his Executive power by tying approved aide to an investigation it was not tied to when approved by Congress, I guess because there were no laws against Hunter Biden making a lot of money in a position he was not qualified for because his dad was Vice President of the United States at the time?

    Uh, no, he shouldn't be able to do that and no one, I mean no one, should support that.

    But that's where the political points you mentioned come into play.

    It should be clear to anyone that Hunter Biden should have never been allowed to take the position in Ukraine that he did. NOT because he took it under corrupt pretenses (he did), but because, by taking that position, the potential for corruption is too high to risk. And when Hunter took that position, Joe Biden should have recused himself from any conversation involving the Ukraine and any US policy conversation that involved the Ukraine. Which, at face value, is ridiculous, so best just make it so that situation is not allowed in the first place. Right?

    But it is. And Trump found the leverage in it all and, inexplicably, found a significant part of the United States democracy willing to go along with the idea that corruption is justified in times of corruption. That is, it happens ALL THE TIME, so okay!

    It's mob logic, plain and simple. The reason it's okay for what Biden did is: it happens ALL THE TIME. The reason it's okay for what Trump did is: it happens ALL THE TIME.

    Not sure which points you're going for, but all any of this has established is that both "sides" will argue in favor of corruption if points are awarded.

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